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  #26  
Unread 03-14-2009, 04:03 PM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

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It's like we've backed ourselves into the Devil's corner because we just couldn't help ourselves with all the enticing luxuries the King(s) threw at us. Very few (independent thinkers) would question why from the beginning so now that the rug is being pulled out from under us, we actually have the gull to ask "why"? Wouldn't this tie-in with the Pluto in Capricorn placement? Since we refused to grow-up & exercise self-discipline, karma will do it for us?
I couldn't agree with you more. We have collectively fallen for the wares of the 'money god', and somehow the collective have helped put those people in the place of ultimate power. Perhaps that is something to do with the Venus 5th house placement. Also in detriment and retro, a maelific planet disguised in the lure of 5th house Venus - entertainment, fun, recreation, all cost money. Look at the popularity of computer games, they switch the mind off and are addictions in some sense. This could be why some people can't take information like this, and those films, not only is it shocking, somehow it has been manifested for a reason. We put our faith and trust in our leaders to do what is right for us, we give our power totally over to them and maybe that is why we are in this sticky situation. Pluto is all about power, in Capricorn, and in the 2nd house next to Lilith, could that show a hidden power structure, the banks? That much is coming to be obvious.

Quote:
Back to the bail-out ? Still learning 'as above so below' concept of a chart but could the apparent Moon represent the U.S. being Cancer-ruled? So, if the moon is in Virgo/8th house, could this signify a systematic (methodical) change of the U.S financial structure by destroying (death) the existing structure with another country or system (trustee/8th hse) stepping in & taking control? And could the Mars in the hidden part of the chart indicate a covert war, not necessarily fought with guns but with money?
Yes that could be, I did the chart from the UK, so 9th is also a 'foreign country', Moon. Makes sense. That sounds like it hits the nail on the head!

Mars square a 7th house Algol could be a hidden war. Mars/the nation in conflict with the POF at the head of the medussa in the hands of the enemy, in detriment and term of Mars does look like a hidden war.

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Last edited by Neptune Rising; 03-15-2009 at 01:49 AM.
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  #27  
Unread 03-18-2009, 04:20 AM
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

See Neptune Rising...you just answered the Venus 5th house question yourself, bringing it back to full-circle. Nice job with the post overall!

Too bad the 1,000 plus who viewed this thread didn't jump-in & further this very serious topic (Oh, that 5th house distraction? Fear of Pluto Cap?).


But thank you for including & actually taking my two-cents in consideration. It's nice to know others are on the same page though few & far between they are.

That would be an interesting thread in itself - 'The Socially Conscious Chart?'
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  #28  
Unread 03-23-2009, 01:28 AM
Awakened_Pisces Awakened_Pisces is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Also of note: 8 of the ten planets of the solar system are located on the inner(lower) hempisphere. Hence providing the solid evidence of it being an inner problem or a secret behind closed doors.

Also the ruler of the inner world is Aquarius(Saturn). Which is in his joy in the 10th house. But you wouldn't know it from those oppositions. But apparently Saturn is exalted with his incredible and unspeakable rule of both axis's

The sun itself is the ruler of the MC. So indeed, the Sun-Saturn interact as rulers of the two AXIS'S.

So, if we accept the sibley chart, we're Cancer whose ruler is the Moon.

I don't know if it trines Lilith Neptune, I think it trines Pluto along with the Algol trine.

The people wanna kick *** and take names.
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  #29  
Unread 03-27-2009, 01:02 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Also Scorpio, Taurus, Aquarius and Leo are on the axies, not sure if thats relevant...? All fixed signs too. Oh I'm gonna go horary/mundane book shopping this weekend!

Ah yes good point Confusedpisces, Sun/Saturn opposition, and ruling their resepctive angular axis, weird. Yes absolutely, they interplay in 4th/10th houses but by opposition, seems like a power struggle. I wonder, does this indicate the government/ruling king ( ) actually go against the money powers?? That Algol/POF is strong too.

As for the timeline, fixed angles but angular Moon, months or weeks?
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  #30  
Unread 03-27-2009, 03:21 AM
lalalaheidi87 lalalaheidi87 is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Totally unrelated to this horary, but neptune is moving towards pisces, which related to the 12th house of "un-doing" and self sabotage. in my experience neptune describes generation, such as neptune was in leo in the roraing 20's, in libra in 'balanced' suburbia 50's and capricorn in yuppie material world of 80s and 90s. what can we expect for pisces? i havent a clue but when neptune was in the opposite sign virgo was the great depression. by the time neptune crosses pisces and finally gets to aries our world will have probably changed a lot
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  #31  
Unread 03-27-2009, 11:20 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Wow yes, Neptune into Pisces does look interesting. It might enhance spiritual qualities, or deceptions and addictions. I guess it depends on the path each one of us is on as to how we handle the energies. Will we be decieved during this time, or intuitive enough to see past the the surface stuff?
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  #32  
Unread 03-27-2009, 12:07 PM
Awakened_Pisces Awakened_Pisces is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, Aquarius are known as the 4 horsemen(This is Astro-christanity). Granted, I know little of christanity and profess that I am an athiest. But I believe the 4 horsemen represent 4 beings of such power.


We can assume that it can be four human beings.

Taurus: Adolf Hitler

Leo: Barack Obama(has a Leo Sun Sign).

If that theory is correct, we're missing the Aquarius and the Scorpio. Putin surprisingly is a Libra so that puts him out of consideration.
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  #33  
Unread 03-31-2009, 12:06 PM
lalalaheidi87 lalalaheidi87 is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

btw, those 4 signs happen to be obamas angles (aquarius rising, scorpio midheaven & neptune, leo descendant & sun, and taurus on the ic) that is strange though, wonder what it is about fixed energy that is related to death and destruction as opposed to other signs. definitely can see scorpio and seething disease and leo and as the consequences of overpridefulness, but then again every sign has its less than pleaseant side
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  #34  
Unread 04-01-2009, 12:47 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

I'm undecided about Obama, they mystique has worn off for me through just reading the BBC news since he came in and knowing what we know. I'm stil unsure about the symbolism of the 4 signs of the horsemen and what they mean... whenever I did a horary asking about Obama winning, I always got Mars representing him or the 10th house which rang warning bells for me.

Dont know who the Aquarius and Scorpio are...

I wonder if you look at countries as well, and their signs?
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  #35  
Unread 04-14-2009, 09:37 AM
lilmermaid lilmermaid is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Neptune Rising,

Isn't the question supposed to be short/concise rather than this? To me it sounds like 2 BIG questions. Even if the question comes down to what is the result for society it still sounds too complicated, no? I thought horary only deals with questions like "will A get this job" rather than "can I earn 4 bi in this life?"

Financial markets-Wall Street and Main Street are so tied together. Boom and burst are just a matter of fact (think savings and loans). It's clear to the reason why we are highly in debt now (no choice but bailing out). Debt is not as terrible as it sounds, what's most prevalent around us anyways? Credits. China popped up the question about our credibility but what else could they do? The world needs US consumers, who in turn use labor in China, who in turn again uses materials in Africa and others~

Society will be better off in the long run.

Last edited by lilmermaid; 04-14-2009 at 09:44 AM.
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  #36  
Unread 04-14-2009, 11:05 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmermaid
Neptune Rising,

Isn't the question supposed to be short/concise rather than this? To me it sounds like 2 BIG questions. Even if the question comes down to what is the result for society it still sounds too complicated, no? I thought horary only deals with questions like "will A get this job" rather than "can I earn 4 bi in this life?"

Financial markets-Wall Street and Main Street are so tied together. Boom and burst are just a matter of fact (think savings and loans). It's clear to the reason why we are highly in debt now (no choice but bailing out). Debt is not as terrible as it sounds, what's most prevalent around us anyways? Credits. China popped up the question about our credibility but what else could they do? The world needs US consumers, who in turn use labor in China, who in turn again uses materials in Africa and others~

Society will be better off in the long run.
Hi lilmermaid

I find horary works best when the question means something to the person asking, in this case, I was very interested in finding out how horary would answer my question so it seems apt. And it looks like the chart answers it quite consisely.

Each to their own methods, as long as its done with pure intention the answer will be clear in the chart. I wasn't thinking of Wall Street at the time, just basic symbolgy of 'banks', 'governments', 'secrets', any more that that would make it too complicated.

The debate is interesting as an offshoot from the question, its not what the original question was about but I find it fasinating what comes out of it.

Things are hidden from us in society, and I wanted to know if this horary would reveal anything further.

NR
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  #37  
Unread 04-14-2009, 01:16 PM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalalaheidi87
in transits when planets pass throught the 12th it means unraveling of the self, you lose what you used to be able to rely on so when crossing the ascendant your self can be redefined... that in combonation with pluto in capricorn... what part of our identity do we have to lose....
It could be Pluto takes away, or rather transforms aspects that are no longer useful to us? In society, perhaps it will take away things that need to go, or transform them into something better for our higher good.

Hmm, Neptune into Pisces, I have heard many mystics will be born in this time. For the majority of us, I do hope its higher energies manifest, those of giving, caring and compassion. But its a long transit so I'm sure we will get there in the end. How we get there could be down to us. Possible the end of materialism, and those who fight this will find it tough, or even make it tough for the rest of us. Its definately a time of change these years, no matter how chaotic it seems now, things will level out.
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  #38  
Unread 04-14-2009, 03:30 PM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalalaheidi87
i disagree,
i dont think it will be better for the higher good
(sadly)
if youre talking about collapse of the market as being good...

compassion patience and love are wonderful things... but not when they are the only things you have to survive on...
i think during this period people will become so wishy washy that they forget the freedoms that this country (usa im talking about) was founded upon and let government take them away.


ps and it will happen all "in the name of" the collapsing market and irresponsible banks
These transits happen regardless of our wants. I'm not saying anything about any particular group doing things "in the name of" whatever, no I don't agree with that at all, but then whenever I don't want changes happening in my own life, they happen anyway with a heavy planetry transit whether I want it or not.

We can't stop the transits. Things evolve whether we like it or not, its the nature of life. I'm not saying we have to surrender to whatever 'power' is up there in govs/banks or whoever else pulls the strings, spiritually we have to evolve and the stuff that happens around us, banks falling, bailouts coming to zillions, they are opportunities for us to learn and evolve, but not get caught up in it... do we get caught up in the negativity they are spreading in the press, so enhancing that negative energy, or do we stay positive and progress through it..?
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  #39  
Unread 04-14-2009, 03:49 PM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Sure, I see.
I don't see the market collapsing as such a bad thing, nothing lasts forever and maybe its just the time for this to happen. Money, I know its a cliche but we can't take it with us when we go, its just something that we have around us sometimes. We have come this far through other transits, the human race, I like to think maybe we have progressed in some ways.

I think, the effect Neptune into Pisces has on us will depend on how we use its energy, and how well we understand ourselves. It could be the reason why there is so much information around us at this time... internet, books, talks, so many spiritual teachers around us giving us information. Maybe this will help us with what is to come..?
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  #40  
Unread 04-15-2009, 06:48 AM
lilmermaid lilmermaid is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

@Neptune Rising: INteresting I was confused O_O since the rule of horary is relaxed in some source and strict in others :-?? But I guess may be if we are totally earnest about it, the Gods (...) might as well reveal something (at that time).

It's true things are hidden away from us T___T 3 years before who would think the rate is down to 0% and of all this mess now...
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  #41  
Unread 04-15-2009, 07:29 AM
lilmermaid lilmermaid is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

I'm going to quote you and add my comments (hope you don't mind this way, kinda like dissecting lolz..I;m still learning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune Rising
Hi
Question: What is the real reason for the bank bailouts, what will be the outcome for society

Sorry I'm learning about these types of chart - mundane I think?
(NO!!

2nd house would be banks - ruled by Jupiter.
Pluto and Lilith in the 2nd house--> Should Pluto and other outer planets not be used in horary??? But again, I just wanna forget those rules Pluto in 2nd house makes sense cuz obviously our credits/budget is going through a lot of change.

Jupiter is in the 3rd--> We are making more contacts and cooperation with countries all over the world. With the new president/gov and obvious global crisis, the world is much more cooperative.--> expansion in communication/writing/travel?


Jupiter is in Saturn's domain, Saturn rules 3rd and 4th houses. And 4th house/Saturn rules the property market.

I see. Saturn is peregrine, backwards, in the 10th. 10th rules government, the 'power'. So, the banks, property and government are all in relation to each other.


Ascendant is the people, the nation. Ruled by Mars, is the nation angry?
(-->and active, ready to fight the recession?)

Also in Saturn/property's domain. The property/Saturn is in the hands/house of the government. And so are the people of the nation. Incidentally Mars is right at the Nadir, and coming out of the grips of Neptune.

That Neptune there at the nadir and conjunct Mars could represent some delusion or deception that the nation has gone through--> I just learnt that we actually don't use conjunct as planets don't really stay* here. Rather, we say that Mars is going away from Neptune, which makes total sense since the way housing market was handled, credits and any failure in economic and gov handlings were finally exposed! The boom market (when Pluto is in Sag) is over (disillusioned now) (changes to Cap).

Sabian symbol for ascendant, "a drowning man being rescued". Mars was drowning in Neptune..?

I found it interesting to see the POF conjunct Algol in the 7th house. It doesn't look too good - beheading, murder, violence, catastrophe, the "Evil One", the Demon Star; passionate; intense; hysterical. That is from http://www.astrologycom.com/fixedstars.html.

--> Ouch...This can be no further from the truth. But remember who got Algol in her chart and overcame it (channeled it into her great energy to accomplish admirable missions?-> Mother TERESA)

I think Algol here means yes, we are facing tremendous "hardship", which requires us to act with equally "intense" response. Constant reassurance, plans, meetings, dealings, debates to save the economy and at the same time dealing with the boiling world politics (....Middle East and North Korea)

Banks are Jupiter, known enemies of nation are Venus. POF is in the 7th/enemies house.

--> can 7th house mean partners as well? Obviously other countries in the world mean partners and "enemies" at the same time. They can't just lend us without asking for smt back. (THe US bailout money comes a lot from overseas)





NR

Last edited by lilmermaid; 04-15-2009 at 07:31 AM.
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  #42  
Unread 04-15-2009, 07:54 AM
lilmermaid lilmermaid is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalalaheidi87
Neptune in Aquarius 1998- present
related to 11th house (groups, friends, communications, who you belong to) and Uranus (technology, suprises)
as neptune entered aquarius, internet and email arrived, cell phones arrived, email evolved into instant messange, instant messenge evolved to myspace, cellphones evolved to iphone... can you see the common theread in our society since 1998..... we became connected to our friends (11th) by technology (uranus)
on the opposite side of the coin, as far a groups and who you belong to (as well as technology)... 9/11 weapons of mass destruction (adv. technology) and loyalties/ groups... our loyalties of the past and how we handled israel/ who we helped who we didnt etc... come back to haunt us.... and now were are in a fight to remove technology (uranus) from those who are not our friends (11th)....

Neptune in Aquarius = LESSONS OF THE 11TH HOUSE
Neptune in Pisces
SELFLESSNESS.... we will willingly step into socialism... first step to communism...
Neptune in Pisces = LESSONS OF THE 12TH HOUSE


Also notable since opposing signs are related (same goal different ways of approaching) you can see where we are going (pisces) by the last time neptune was in virgo (1930’s)....
Now we are nearing the end of aquarius which is opposite leo (1920s) which was time of generall wellbeing/social/upbeat and thriving... at least up until the point where it collapsed ... neptune is now nearing that point opposite the collapse of 1929.
Awesome lolz. " SELFLESSNESS.... we will willingly step into socialism... first step to communism..."

How I love astrology If only people in economics/gov/financial sector/polsci embrace astrology more, they would be amazed lolz.

YES questions about CAPITALISM are popping up. With gov bailing out a lot of companies and control the market (we need to have better regulation), we are challenging "free markets", which is the buzzing word that comes with the United States of America and capitalism for a long time lolz.

So are we communists now?

Don't panic yet lolz.

Socialism is the first step. And with gov owning our money isn't that bad (don't look at North Korea yet). Karl Marx's theory is that normally we start with gov owning our money and then we have control of it (socialism-> capitalism) Countries who fail (Soviet, Cuba, North Korea) didn't go through capitalism. They took the short cut (even the shortcut has some faults) and obviously it didn't work.

I guess we are at the end of a cycle. Business cycle is a norm. It's just that we are being hit *very* (to put it lightly) hard this time but not like 1930s...


I'll leave out other parts of Neptune since it will be too far from our main topic. no time to digress lolz. go to work and save the economy lolz (or yourself first =p)
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  #43  
Unread 04-15-2009, 07:59 AM
lilmermaid lilmermaid is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalalaheidi87
I am still convinced neptune into pisces will be our society falling apart....
neptune means so much i am convinced... this is the very beginnings...
Restructure. Society can't fall apart.


Psych does drive a lot Don't convince yourself so If you think your relationship with A won't work, it might as well become a self fulling prophecy~
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  #44  
Unread 04-15-2009, 09:50 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmermaid
@Neptune Rising: INteresting I was confused O_O since the rule of horary is relaxed in some source and strict in others :-?? But I guess may be if we are totally earnest about it, the Gods (...) might as well reveal something (at that time).
Lol, I've learned horary with all its rules from the start, I'm too confused now by yours statement?? :P

The question was about why the banks are doing the bailouts (?), and what is the reason for society (??)? I simply cast this chart with the intention (pure intention) of finding out the answer - I used horary to find out what it would say as it often reveals things that are easily overlooked.... Does this confuse you in some way, or do my methods confuse you? If so, please PM me and I'd be happy to explain, otherwise can we please keep to the question posed in the chart?

Thanks
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  #45  
Unread 04-15-2009, 09:57 AM
lilmermaid lilmermaid is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

lolz why are you confused while i'm clear now. I thought your question was 1. too big, 2. actually 2 questions in 1. I read in the horary technique section it is a NO-NO in horary but in another website, it says it's okay to look into a general question.

Conclusion: Forget the rules, I'll just look at the chart and I did stick with the question! Did you see my comments?? :-?? Your chart seems to bode well with current situation =] Fascinating =]
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  #46  
Unread 04-15-2009, 10:20 AM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

No worries, seems easy enough, I'll answer in the same way in blue...

Quote:
Should Pluto and other outer planets not be used in horary??? But again, I just wanna forget those rules Pluto in 2nd house makes sense cuz obviously our credits/budget is going through a lot of change.

Ha yes Pluto is not used in traditional horary, but I thought I'd include it to add another flavour to the chart. People in this forum use it sometimes so I added him.


Jupiter is in the 3rd--> We are making more contacts and cooperation with countries all over the world. With the new president/gov and obvious global crisis, the world is much more cooperative.--> expansion in communication/writing/travel?


Jupiter is in Saturn's domain, Saturn rules 3rd and 4th houses. And 4th house/Saturn rules the property market.

I see. Saturn is peregrine, backwards, in the 10th. 10th rules government, the 'power'. So, the banks, property and government are all in relation to each other.


Ascendant is the people, the nation. Ruled by Mars, is the nation angry?
(-->and active, ready to fight the recession?)
maybe, or ready to fight. there have been a few protests here in London lately, violence included, perhaps this feeling is building up generally in society. Not sure how we can fight a recession? This is a term used in the papers, by our leaders, just like the term 'credit crunch'. How can we fight an inanimate object? We will be paying for this with our taxes, stealth taxes and whatever other means they think up in the future. If society is angry, where will they direct their anger, it has to go somewhere or be used for something.

Also in Saturn/property's domain. The property/Saturn is in the hands/house of the government. And so are the people of the nation. Incidentally Mars is right at the Nadir, and coming out of the grips of Neptune.

That Neptune there at the nadir and conjunct Mars could represent some delusion or deception that the nation has gone through--> I just learnt that we actually don't use conjunct as planets don't really stay* here. Rather, we say that Mars is going away from Neptune, which makes total sense since the way housing market was handled, credits and any failure in economic and gov handlings were finally exposed! The boom market (when Pluto is in Sag) is over (disillusioned now) (changes to Cap).
This is what I said, Mars is conjunct Neptune but moving away as Mars is the faster moving planet. "Coming out of Neptune's grips" is my colourful way of saying "Mars is leaving the conjunction with Neptune".

Sabian symbol for ascendant, "a drowning man being rescued". Mars was drowning in Neptune..?

I found it interesting to see the POF conjunct Algol in the 7th house. It doesn't look too good - beheading, murder, violence, catastrophe, the "Evil One", the Demon Star; passionate; intense; hysterical. That is from http://www.astrologycom.com/fixedstars.html.

--> Ouch...This can be no further from the truth. But remember who got Algol in her chart and overcame it (channeled it into her great energy to accomplish admirable missions?-> Mother TERESA)
Algol in nativities is different in effect from horaries, as people can master it in a lifetime, whereas horary just describes a situation as it is at the moment.

I think Algol here means yes, we are facing tremendous "hardship", which requires us to act with equally "intense" response. Constant reassurance, plans, meetings, dealings, debates to save the economy and at the same time dealing with the boiling world politics (....Middle East and North Korea)

Banks are Jupiter, known enemies of nation are Venus. POF is in the 7th/enemies house.

--> can 7th house mean partners as well?
Yes it can but not in this chart, its not about myself rather about society, there is no partner to query which would then be the 7th, opposite to me, the 1st.
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Unread 04-15-2009, 10:44 AM
Awakened_Pisces Awakened_Pisces is offline
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Re: Banks bail out - reason and result for society?

Indeed, one does make note of the violence induced riots at the G-20 summit. I actually think it was well-deserved. Regardless of the theories behind it. That Prince Philip annoys me to hell and I'm sure he does the rest of Britain. How can he speak of his fellow men as clergymen is a part of his narracistic behavior, like every one of them(Obama included. Possibly being the biggest ego head of all of them).

Now here in America, there have been developments. The "Right-Wing" establishment, which up until now has utterly defended the "existence" or supposed "lack there of" of Fema camps, has now begun to drastically change it's course. By speaking openly of and agreeing of a New World Order.

I mean you heard Ann Coulter, someone as stupid like Sarah Palin endorse Ron Paul, But not nearly talk about all the things Ron Paul talks about(Because if the American people were to stop listening to their damned ipods and get some real infomation).....

You heard Glenn Beck spoke of his week long research into fema camps, only to say he couldn't do it. Fueling NWO speculation. It's far more likely that Mr.Beck and Ms.Ann already knew of the NWO, far before anyone did a "week research"(It's debatable if they even did that).

It's possible that by announcing the NWO to the world through the mass media, the powers that be are ultimately trying to silence the small media markets like Alex Jones's show, or Michael Savage's who recently called for the strong possibility of a Reichtsag like event in the United States.

The US Patriot Act is the most terroristic "act" ever produced in the United States. No, I'm sorry. Barack Obama's obviously false presidency, planned by the Rothschilds is the most terrorist act and attack against the United States by Corp.Britian.

But seeing as George.W.Bush(another Rothschilds/rockerfeller puppet) introduced the US "Patriot"(There's nothing Patriotic about wiretapping. Even if we were nuked I wouldn't sign this bill) act. You could very well argue that these two things are nuclear like attacks on the US and our freedom.

The enemy, Corp.Britain which seeks to reclaim it's land of America and ultimately the world thereby as a result has already declared serious war against us through it's manipulative tactics.

Unfortunately, the people won't exactly be able to mount an offensive. At least not here in the United States. We can thank the US Patriot Act for this, which many people have no understanding threatened one of the sacred, early rights the fathers gave to their fellow American:

If the government does not comply with the wishes of the people, then may a new revolution begin .

The Fathers, who also took part in the spiritual occult knew that the beautiful nation they created would one day be damned, and gave us the power to get rid of the damndations.

But now, the world's citizens must come together in order to get rid of a most familar foe.
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