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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 07-02-2019, 03:52 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Hello,

I have ordered three books on traditional astrology or classical astrology as per some recommedations here. Till they arrive I would like to know from western traditional astrology perspective how much fate plays in an individual's life, how much free will one has in one's life?

Greeks seem to have given a lot of importance to fate and its influence on western traditional astrology must have given equal importance to fate (I'm guessing).

Being born in India, my upbringing reeked of karma and fate from childhood that people readily accept their inability to change things and this has bothered me for a very long time. I'm curious about what ancient astrologers have to say.

Thanks

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Unread 07-02-2019, 04:57 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

There is a saying that The stars impel, they don't compel.
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Unread 07-02-2019, 05:34 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

There's a whole lot that falls between fate and the individual free will: ecology, political circumstances, culture, social relationships, theology, family, economy. I'm NOT a traditional astrologer, but it's my impression that many of the intermediaries I've listed here can themselves be dealt with in traditional astrology. A nation has a chart, a company has a chart, a marriage, etc. So my inclination would be to say that while both fate and free will are operative in a person's life and can be assessed astrologically, the full answer to the question cannot be seen in an individual chart.
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Unread 07-02-2019, 05:57 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
There is a saying that The stars impel, they don't compel.
Yes, the proverbial statement, but I wonder how much of it is actually true. I think one would agree that when an individual starts feeling dissatisfied with life then s/he would start asking questions like - is there is a free will? why I'm unable to enjoy more of life? To me it is a clear indicator that the individual is facing a force (fate) that is pushing him/her to rise above the challenge. Some overcome (fate) while some succumb to it and wither away, sort of like natural selection.

I want to understand from ancient astrology's perspective why some people deal with so much of fate while some just a little?

To give you an example from astrology (modern & vedic), numerology, palmisty I'm convinced Saturn is out there to get me so to speak. So I did a lot of research on the planet and I'm disappointed that Marsilio Ficino painted an optimistic picture of Saturn of course besides acknowledging the melancholia. To me this is no different than justifying your bad life similar to advocating karma.

So, now I'm on a quest to understand going all the way back.


Last edited by lostinstars; 07-02-2019 at 06:14 PM.
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Unread 07-02-2019, 06:06 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
There's a whole lot that falls between fate and the individual free will: ecology, political circumstances, culture, social relationships, theology, family, economy. I'm NOT a traditional astrologer, but it's my impression that many of the intermediaries I've listed here can themselves be dealt with in traditional astrology. A nation has a chart, a company has a chart, a marriage, etc. So my inclination would be to say that while both fate and free will are operative in a person's life and can be assessed astrologically, the full answer to the question cannot be seen in an individual chart.

May be you are right. But is it not possible to judge from dignities of planets?

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-02-2019 at 06:08 PM.
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Unread 07-12-2019, 05:48 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

For anyone who may be interested in this topic, in the book 'Introduction to Traditional Astrology by Charles Obert', the author compares traditional astrology v/s modern astrology. Traditional astrology is more fate driven, less free willed and trying to find your place in the cosmos.
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Unread 07-12-2019, 06:16 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
There's a whole lot that falls between fate and the individual free will: ecology, political circumstances, culture, social relationships, theology, family, economy.

I'm NOT a traditional astrologer,

but it's my impression that many of the intermediaries I've listed here can themselves be dealt with in traditional astrology. A nation has a chart, a company has a chart, a marriage, etc. So my inclination would be to say that while both fate and free will are operative in a person's life and can be assessed astrologically, the full answer to the question cannot be seen in an individual chart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


But is it not possible to judge from dignities of planets?


For detailed information of dignities of planets:

video recording episode 156 of The Astrology Podcast
CHARLES OBERT discusses essential dignities and debilities
and how they are used to determine the condition of a planet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVz6xT7yHDs
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 07-12-2019, 06:28 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Yes, the proverbial statement, but I wonder how much of it is actually true. I think one would agree that when an individual starts feeling dissatisfied with life then s/he would start asking questions like - is there is a free will? why I'm unable to enjoy more of life? To me it is a clear indicator that the individual is facing a force (fate) that is pushing him/her to rise above the challenge. Some overcome (fate) while some succumb to it and wither away, sort of like natural selection.

I want to understand from ancient astrology's perspective why some people deal with so much of fate while some just a little?

To give you an example from astrology (modern & vedic), numerology, palmisty I'm convinced Saturn is out there to get me so to speak. So I did a lot of research on the planet and I'm disappointed that Marsilio Ficino painted an optimistic picture of Saturn of course besides acknowledging the melancholia. To me this is no different than justifying your bad life similar to advocating karma.

So, now I'm on a quest to understand going all the way back.

The following is a quote from WEBINAR

The Astrological Study of Dignity and Debility – CHARLES OBERT

'....When evaluating a chart,
evaluating the location and natures of the planets
gives information
on which areas of life the good or ill fortune will most likely be found...'
https://vimeo.com/286369865
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 07-12-2019, 06:39 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Thanks JUPITERASC for the podcast. Once I'm done reading the book will start the podcast.
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Unread 07-12-2019, 06:51 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Thanks JUPITERASC for the podcast.
Once I'm done reading the book will start the podcast.

CHARLES OBERTS vimeo WEBINAR provides addtional information
on Dignity and Debility

also
OMNISPHERICUS has not commented for some time
but
did leave us with a treasure-trove of useful information on his methodology
which involves a mix of traditional Medieval and Hellenistic
for example
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post


https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=48463


The type of Delineation I'm giving here is a mix of medieval techniques with those of the Hellenistic authors.

Here are some tips for delineating the chart in this manner.

1. The good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
This is the basic rule. The ruler of the house is giver of the material of the house.

Zoller gives the example of his own chart where he has Combusted Mercury in 11th, ruler of 4th. He comments that this kind of placement brings adversity to ones home and dwellings.

2. Benefit in one area of life can be produced by adversity, or even conflict, in another.

Again Zoller gives example from his own chart.
Jupiter in 9th in Scorpio disposited from Mars in 11th: Wisdom coming from conflicts.

3. The delineation tells you the what. The
predictive techniques tell you the when.


4. The Elemental Quality of the Sign of the Ascendant is showing the type of Primary Motivation of the native.
Fire goes for freedom of action and power.
Air goes for freedom of expression and movement.
The Water signs need emotional security
Earth signs need physical security.

The person with masculine Ascendant (or majority of planets in masculine signs) speaks in active terms: "I did this to that person".
The person with feminine sign on Ascendant or majority planets in feminine signs, speaks in passive terms: "This happened to me".

The Feminine signs seek advice because they need second hand in their decisions, in fact they want someone else to make the decision for them.
Masculine signs seek advice because they have many options so they are not sure which option is better.

Cardinal signs are most active. Cardinal water and earth (Cancer and Capricorn) are working great amount of actions but in circumstances and environment structured already by someone else.
Libra and Aries (Cardinal masculine) are working great in any kind of circumstances.

Fixed signs are centripetal, they need center. They are very successful in Acquisations.
Taurus hoards money.
Leo hoards glory and honor.
Scorpio hoards the hidden things, hidden motivations of other people, seek energy and vitality.
Aquarius hoards Knowledge.

Mutable signs vacillate between the two: cardinal and fixed.

5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

The aspecting planet's local determination will be added to the Primary
Motivation.
(Venus in 5th will add love for pleasure and entertainment to the native's Primary Motivation).

The aspect between the aspecting planet and the Ascendant tells you how the being of the planet and its local determination are linked.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are lamost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

This is great quote by Zoller:


Lets assume that a person has Cancer on the Ascendant,
The primary motivation of this person is the Need for Emotional Security.
The ruler/s of the Ascendant and their zodiacal and local state will determine How would this be achieved.

Lets assume Moon on IC in Libra Peregrine.
Jupiter in 6th (but 7th sign!) in Capricorn.
Venus in Sag in 6th - Peregrine.
Mars in Scorpio in 4th (but 5th sign!)
Saturn (term ruler) is in 5th Scorpio Peregrine.

We can see that Moon is strong by accident (being on angle), so we can judge first from there.
The need for Emotional Security this person would seek in the home, in the place of the father. The father would be the means through which this person would try to achieve the Emotional Security.
Jupiter - the exalted ruler is weak by being cadent, Venus too. They can't produce much in giving the emotional security this person seeks.
Jupiter by universal means suggest that the native would seek wisdom, religion (and the person actually did!) but by being cadent and in fall, it can't productively give what it promise.
Mars is in 4/5th and is strong by zodiacal state, but is out of sect malefic.
It would try to win competitions, but also with Saturn in 5th will give great deal of creativity. Mars rules the 10th - creativity and looking for career, would also give some amount of emotional security for this person. But by being square with Sun in 7th it means that it will have opposition from authorities and other people in general.

The primary motivation is great deal of what we unconsciously and often consciously seek for. Once that motivation is broken or someone interrupt it, we seek to fix that in the every possible way we can do that.

I will continue with the tips in my next post.

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Unread 07-12-2019, 06:59 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

What Iíve learnt is you use the energy in your chart in different ways. So if it doesnít work down one path change it to another so you use it to your advantage! There is free will however using the free will incorrectly brings consequences. Thatís life. The Saturn life 😍🌟
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Unread 07-13-2019, 04:29 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
What Iíve learnt is you use the energy in your chart in different ways. So if it doesnít work down one path change it to another so you use it to your advantage! There is free will however using the free will incorrectly brings consequences. Thatís life. The Saturn life 😍🌟

Can you give an example? I know everyone has free will to be a murderer or a saint but the motivation can only push an individual to become something the chart shows.


And care to explain what is Saturn life?
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Unread 07-13-2019, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Can you give an example? I know everyone has free will to be a murderer or a saint but the motivation can only push an individual to become something the chart shows.


And care to explain what is Saturn life?
I have Saturn in my first house and have learnt to control my rebellious side in a healthier way as if I donít saturn punishes me eg if I have fun against the rules at day work then I get caught out by the senior management and get in trouble 😬. However if I have fun within the boundaries and rules then I get rewarded eg again at work not going out and breaking rules but still have fun my work gets better and I get promoted! 😇 this is the Saturn life as some of my friends eg Aquarius friend she can be as naughty as she likes and she will get promoted and never get caught. I have to use my Saturn to my advantage using the rules. RULES AND REGULATIONS! And everything goes well for me and in a crazy way I enjoy all these rules lmao 😆
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Unread 07-14-2019, 04:56 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

The ancient Greeks who developed horoscopic astrology were fatalists. They came from a mythological tradition of the Three Fates deciding people's lives; and then the Stoic philosophy was very popular back then.

However, fatalism is not necessary to the study and practice of traditional astrology. It's collateral. In Europe during the Middle Ages, a lot of Catholics picked up astrology and even taught it in the major universities. The church always taught that people have moral choice ("free will.")

I do mostly modern astrology but I wanted to learn enough traditional western astrology to understand it and practice a simplified version of it in horary astrology. I believe in a choice-centered astrology. Each planet, sign, and house has multiple interpretations that are all consistent with the core meanings. We get to choose empowering or disempowering interpretations.

On the other hand, sometimes a little fatalism is comforting. When life hands us disappointments, we can always say they weren't our fault. They were in our stars.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 05:01 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

[deleted reference to Modern Astrology on Traditional Astrology Forum - Moderator]

I view Saturn as my wisest teacher. His lessons are perseverance, hard work, deferred gratification, and frugality. These don't sound like a lot of fun, but they are extremely valuable.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
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Last edited by wilsontc; 07-14-2019 at 02:04 PM.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 12:59 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
I have Saturn in my first house and have learnt to control my rebellious side in a healthier way as if I donít saturn punishes me eg if I have fun against the rules at day work then I get caught out by the senior management and get in trouble 😬. However if I have fun within the boundaries and rules then I get rewarded eg again at work not going out and breaking rules but still have fun my work gets better and I get promoted! 😇 this is the Saturn life as some of my friends eg Aquarius friend she can be as naughty as she likes and she will get promoted and never get caught. I have to use my Saturn to my advantage using the rules. RULES AND REGULATIONS! And everything goes well for me and in a crazy way I enjoy all these rules lmao 😆
Thanks, donít take this the wrong way but Iím tired of people portraying Saturn rewards efforts, delays but never denies yadda yadda yadda. This seems to be definitely the work of modern esoteric astrologers who sprayed some new age ideas from Ď60s and Ď70s. I too have Saturn in the first house and also conj. Asc and it happens to the strongest planet as per some calculations and methods and chart ruler as per some other method. Whatever be the case I have been seeing the planetís action in my life for over 13 years now straight. I have only experienced what Saturn is known for, the greater malefic. No matter how hard I try to make things happen and stay positive things just donít work out. So I switched sides from modern astrology to traditional astrology. At least traditional astrology does not sugar coat things and does not mislead people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
On the other hand, sometimes a little fatalism is comforting. When life hands us disappointments, we can always say they weren't our fault. They were in our stars.
May be but I donít like to blame fate, I just want to know when do I stop working for things hoping things would improve?
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Unread 07-14-2019, 01:29 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


Thanks, don’t take this the wrong way but I’m tired of people portraying Saturn rewards efforts, delays but never denies yadda yadda yadda. This seems to be definitely the work of modern esoteric astrologers who sprayed some new age ideas from ‘60s and ‘70s. I too have Saturn in the first house and also conj. Asc and it happens to the strongest planet as per some calculations and methods and chart ruler as per some other method. Whatever be the case I have been seeing the planet’s action in my life for over 13 years now straight. I have only experienced what Saturn is known for, the greater malefic. No matter how hard I try to make things happen and stay positive things just don’t work out. So I switched sides from modern astrology to traditional astrology.

At least traditional astrology does not sugar coat things

and does not mislead people.

May be but I don’t like to blame fate, I just want to know when
do I stop working for things hoping things would improve?

Since the vast majority of members posting on our forum
on any of our boards
whether Vedic, Chinese, Western and so on
are requesting PREDICTION of some form
for example:
horary questions on exam results, job interviews et al
natal questions on appearance of future partner aka spouse
obviously then
if fate were not involved
it would be difficult if not impossible to practice astrology
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Unread 07-14-2019, 02:06 PM
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Traditional astrology ONLY, to All

All,

As a reminder, please do NOT post ANY Modern Astrology references or interpretations on the Traditional Astrology Forum. Discussions of Modern Astrology ONLY belong on the Modern Astrology Forum. Discussions of comparison of Modern Astrology and Traditional Astrology belong on the Natal Astrology Forum.

Back to Traditional Astrology,

Tim
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Unread 07-14-2019, 02:19 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
if fate were not involved
it would be difficult if not impossible to practice astrology

True indeed but my original post was on how much role fate and free will have according to traditional astrology. I got my answer from the book I mentioned.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Thanks, donít take this the wrong way but Iím tired of people portraying Saturn rewards efforts, delays but never denies yadda yadda yadda. This seems to be definitely the work of modern esoteric astrologers who sprayed some new age ideas from Ď60s and Ď70s. I too have Saturn in the first house and also conj. Asc and it happens to the strongest planet as per some calculations and methods and chart ruler as per some other method. Whatever be the case I have been seeing the planetís action in my life for over 13 years now straight. I have only experienced what Saturn is known for, the greater malefic. No matter how hard I try to make things happen and stay positive things just donít work out. So I switched sides from modern astrology to traditional astrology. At least traditional astrology does not sugar coat things and does not mislead people.



May be but I donít like to blame fate, I just want to know when do I stop working for things hoping things would improve?
No of course I havenít taken it the wrong way 😊😊👍.

Iím not an astrologer. Iím looking to learn on here. I was giving me personal experience due to Saturn in my H1. I have realised that Having Saturn in the first personally for me makes me pessimistic at times and see the bad side to things. Rather than de the good Iím doing Iíve focused and nit picked on the smaller things when I couldíve appreciated what was going on. Stay positive. Three always good, sometimes we just ignore it because we want perfection. Nothing is perfect. 🙏
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Unread 07-14-2019, 02:56 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Post deleted

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-14-2019 at 03:16 PM.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 03:10 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post

No of course I havenít taken it the wrong way ������.
Iím not an astrologer.
Iím looking to learn on here.
in that case then
since you stated you have no knowledge of traditional astrology
you lack the ability able to contribute traditional information to this thread
i.e. as the OP stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

my original post was
on how much role fate and free will have
according to traditional astrology.
I got my answer from the book I mentioned.
and so
unless you clearly equate your personal experience
of a House 1 Saturn
directly to traditional astrology
then your comments belong on a non-traditional board
because this board is solely for traditional perspectives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post

I was giving me personal experience due to Saturn in my H1.
I have realised that Having Saturn in the first personally for me makes me pessimistic
at times and see the bad side to things.
Rather than de the good Iím doing Iíve focused and nit picked
on the smaller things when I couldíve appreciated what was going on.
Stay positive.
Three always good, sometimes we just ignore it because we want perfection.
Nothing is perfect. ��
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  #23  
Unread 07-14-2019, 03:12 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
I'm not a practising astrologer either but got into astrology mainly because of this wretched planet called Saturn. In this age of internet there is so much garbage online from articles on websites, to youtube channels on astrology. Everyone reads few books, sets up a youtube channel and talks like an expert regurtiating new age esoteric quantum mechanics driven modern astrology. I've had enough, so got into serious study on how astrology started and what ancient astrologers said exactly. By doing this I will have more clarity, separate new age beliefs and know what I can expect from my chart and from life. This way I will have more control

and can be at peace with fate.


Exactly
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Unread 07-14-2019, 03:30 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
and so
unless you clearly equate your personal experience
of a House 1 Saturn
directly to traditional astrology
then your comments belong on a non-traditional board
because this board is solely for traditional perspectives

I'm not equating Saturn in first house to fate ordained from traditional astrology's perspective. On the contrary my only interest is to not mix systems and try to understand traditional astrology from its roots so that I know with great certainity if Saturn is really responsible for my fate.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 04:10 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


I'm not equating Saturn in first house

to fate ordained from traditional astrology's perspective.

On the contrary my only interest is to not mix systems
and try to understand traditional astrology from its roots
so that I know with great certainity

if Saturn is really responsible for my fate.

Very wise
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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