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  #1  
Unread 02-28-2006, 09:30 PM
cherie cherie is offline
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Brother's health

Hi,

First of all let me say "hi", it is my first time here. A friend recommended to propose asking
a question regarding my brothers mental health.

He's currently being treated of a mental state called bipolar disorder.

His name's Antonio and he was born in May 24 1976. I dont know the exact time.

Im worried about his state and I wonder if he will be better.

My question is, will he be ok soon ?

Time asked 9.14 PM Abóbada / Portugal (near Lisbon).

Thank you very much in advance for the attention

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  #2  
Unread 03-01-2006, 08:05 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Cherie,

I am working on the horary now, and will post as soon as I have finished.

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  #3  
Unread 03-01-2006, 08:34 PM
cherie cherie is offline
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Ok Drako, i'll be waiting kisses
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  #4  
Unread 03-01-2006, 10:48 PM
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Hi Cherie,

A very warm welcome to you Cherie, I hope you like it here and become a regular participant in our studies, conversations and debates.

It isn't Mrs. Blair I'm talking to is it? (joke).

I would like to try to answer this question for you, but I must point out that I will be using the technique as taught by John Frawley. Frawley teaches that a horary chart is more significant in it's answers when determined from the time and place at which the question is recieved and understood by the person who is intended to interpret it, (which may be more than one person) rather than from the time and place at which the question was asked.

For insight upon this technique, see MidnightDevils question, where it was asked 'Will I get the job?'. Myself and Sorehearted both tried to answer this question based upon the time and place we received the question. We both got the question at very different times and in very different places in the world (Sore in Egypt, myself in England), yet interestingly, both our charts provided us with the same answers, albeit in different ways. We have yet to find out the outcome of our analyses.

I am interested in experimenting with this alternative technique, so I hope you do not mind me taking the liberty to do so with your question. :|

I do however, feel that it would be very worth it for someone to interpret your question based upon the time and place that you provided, as a control, and perhaps Fensi (Goca) or RubyElixir (Robyn) or Sorehearted (Nora) would be kind enough to do this, although I would hope that Nora would be sufficiently interested to experiment with me again and use the chart for the time and place at which she receives the question, to see whether our results are similar once more.

Okay, here goes, I received and understood your question at 23:32 in the town of St. Annes, England, UK, so according to the technique of Frawley, this is the time I will be using to determine the answer to your question.

I will only be including the seven visible planets in my interpretation.

Here is the chart:



I am answering this question on your behalf, so you are the 1st cusp, myself as your representative. However, our primary concern is your brother, and the house of brothers is the third, so we seek the ruler of the third cusp and the Moon as his essential significators.

Planets in the 3rd house are accidental significators of your brother.

For your brothers condition, we look to the 6th from the 3rd giving us the 8th. There is a notion among some modern astrologers that the 12th house signifies health problems of a mental nature and the 6th house for problems of a physical nature. I don't buy this view. The 6th house represents all ailments, illnesses, diseases, afflictions or injuries, whether they are mental or physical in nature. The 12th as the house of 'self-undoing' would relate to matters of masochism or suicidal tendancy, but unless these matters are specifically designated in the question, then it is always the 6th house to be looked to for matters of ill health.

The ruler of the 8th cusp is the essential significator of your brothers illness, any planets in the 8th are accidental significators of the illness.

Let's analyse the chart.

First we'll look at the basic placements and dignities of the significant planets in regard to your brother and his illness.

Your brother's significators are the ruler of the 3rd and the Moon. I often like to see the ruler of the significant cusp as a reflection of the persons outer self, the Moon the inner self.

The 3rd cusp lies in Saturn ruled Capricorn, so Saturn is brother's significator. Saturn is retrograde and in it's detriment in Leo the 9th house. Brother's Saturnian detriment and retrograde significator shows your brother's current difficulties and constraints, Saturn is lord of darkness and the greater malefic, indicating the hardship that your brother currently endures, and its retrograde motion may signify that he is re-experiencing troubles which have plagued him in the past, and shows restrictions imposed upon him, sliding backward down a slippery slope. Demons which have not been previously put to rest need to be acknowledged now. At this time he is turning inward to encounter the darkness. Saturn however, while afflicted by detriment and retrogradation is none the less in it's own term and face, lending him a little dignity with which to shield himself, as he is in his own term and face, your brother is not completely vulnerable, he has some power to defend himself and fight his corner, even if only a little. Saturn is in a fixed sign, so he is within circumstances that he must accept, endure and work with, at least for now.

Saturn is in the rulership of the Sun, the ruler of the midheaven point, so your brothers quest for health is dominant and of prime importance.

Saturn is in the radical 9th house, of 'learned people', therefore doctors and psychiatrists (or priests), and if he is currently consulting medical professionals then this house placement shows that he within their realm. If not, the house placement shows that it is the wisdom of learned people that he seeks.

The 9th is the 4th house from the 6th. This causes me to wonder if there is a history of bi-polar disorder in the family. As the 4th (father) from the 6th (disorder) might suggest that the illness has been inherited through the paternal line, or onset through a fatherly influence.

The significator of brother's illness, 6th from 3rd, gives us the 8th, and the ruler of the 8th falling in Gemini is Mercury, natural ruler of the mental faculties and processes. Mercury is in very poor condition here, badly afflicted, in its sign of fall and detriment, and combust by the Sun. When a planet is combust by the Sun, then that which is represented by the significator becomes invisible, or difficult to see, describing his bi-polar disorder as a condition which is hard to define, perhaps outwardly unnoticable to many. This chart is very radical because Mercury being ruler of the mind and the mental functions, being in it's fall and detriment in the bi-corporeal sign of the fishes (both swimming in opposite directions) is a poetic description of the difficulty of his bi-polar condition.

Frawley says upon the matter of illness' significator in a horary:

Quote:
If the significator lies in a fixed sign, the illness will be long lasting; if in a cardinal, it will be short; if in a mutable sign it will come and go, or give better and worse days. Qualify this by the sign in which the querents own significator is in, according to the same criteria.
Here, Mercury is in a mutable sign, so some days are worse than others, the illness will progress through times of strength and weakness, of a nature which comes and goes. His Saturnian significator is in a fixed sign. So the illness, while coming and going in it's own nature, is something that your brother will have to endure over long, fixated periods.

Mercury is nearing the end of Pisces, but before it leaves it is set to turn retrograde, heralding a time of greater mental confusion for us all, but particularly your brother in that it is the significator of his disorder.

Quote:
Is the significator changing direction? A planet in it's first station (turning retrograde) is likened to a man taking to his sickbed, he is ill and will get worse.
The fact that Mercury is debilitated, combust and soon to turn retrograde is not at all good.

His co-significator the Moon, is also in Pisces, showing how his inner self and the condition are united as one. The Moon is peregrine, also combust by the Sun, and closely applies to conjunct with blighted Mercury, which, all things considered is not a good sign. The Moon peregrine, is a wanderer, with no power to act, and so your brother's inner self helplessly moves toward greater unison with the bi-polar condition. The Moon is also conjunct the antiscion of the South node, which is greatly malefic, especially as the Moon is in such poor condition anyway and does not at all herald good news.

It is a point of interest to mention that the Moon/Mercury conjunction, signifying the disrupted mental state is conjunct the Arabic part of head injury (8th Cusp + Moon + Mars).

Upon combust planets:

Quote:
There is no greater affliction to a planet than this...if this planet cannot see, the person it signifies cannot see reason.
The fact that the brother is described as being unable to see reason, may be descriptive of his condition. Bear in mind that the Moon is separating, suggesting that the worst is past, the Moon also waxes, thus increases in strength, however, Mercury, the illness, will be moving retrograde very soon, and moving further toward combustion, and the Moon is applying to conjunct Mercury. He is over a bad patch, but heading straight for another, and this would confirm the significator of the illnesses placement in a mutable sign, this is a condition which comes and goes, it is episodic, with varying degrees of strength and weakness. Your brother's significator in a fixed sign, and retrograde, suggests that your brother must continually battle with this fighting of these internal demons, which make erratic and seemingly unpredictable appearances.

The Moons placement in the radical 4th, brings me back to the idea that your brothers condition may be inherited through the paternal line.

Your brother has an accidental significator in Venus, as it is in the 3rd house. Venus, like the Moon is peregrine, thus having no power to exert control over the situation. Venus is in the rulership of Saturn, your brothers essential significator, so your brother is dominated by that part of himself which needs to turn inward and battle with the darkness, and endure difficulty and restriction. Venus is in the exaltation of Mars, and Mars being in the 8th, is accidental significator of the condition, Venus exalting Mars shows your brothers acute awareness of the detrimental effects of the illness, as Mars is always disruptive in some sense, and it is placed in the mentally (dis)functional sign of Gemini and in the 8th house of anxiety. He must be wary not to fear the condition too greatly for in doing so gives it more power. An exalted planet is always put on a pedestal and given more credit than it is due. Venus is in partile (same degree) sextile with Mercury, showing the direct effect that the mental disorder is having upon his sensitivities.

Mars is accidental significator of your brothers illness as mentioned, and it is in partle sextile with Saturn, his essential significator. Again, this shows the challenge which your brother must inevitably encounter against the disruptive mental influences of his condition.



I think I will tie up my interpretation here, else I'll get bogged down and confuse us both with so much unecessary detail, and I may have gone too far up the garden path already.

In short, to answer your question I would say this:

Your brothers condition can never be completely allieviated by conventional medicine. It is a periodic condition, coming forth in unpredictable episodes of activity which will vary in intensity. This will be a continual battle, if not a continual bout of illness. The battle will come with keeping the disruptive symptoms at bay. It will be constant in that it will always need to be moderated and worked upon, even if it is not always apparent. So your brother will never be free, even if he will not always display symptoms.

I welcome any comments, questions or criticisms that you may have.

Draco
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  #5  
Unread 03-02-2006, 07:29 AM
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Excelent explanation of this chart! It seams you are expert for medicine question (as expected, you are Vi)!
I look at chart for the data when question ask, and get same results!
In "my" chart ASC=14Li19
Ruler of brother is Ju at 18Sco50(fix sign) in his 12H! In his 6H is Ma at 5Ge34! His 6H ruler is Ve at 26Cap36. Moon co significator of question is at 22Pi23, under Sun's Beam, in conjuct with fixed star Markab (fairly good health but many accidents). Moon's aspects are sextile with Ve and conjuct with Me under Sun's Beam. This is "up and down" regarding illness and long lasting (fixed ruler of brother, Ju).
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  #6  
Unread 03-02-2006, 09:09 AM
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ok first i will say VERY insightful Draco, especially of the condition of which i am highly experienced in that my ex is bi polar. You n ot only described the affliction in an uncanny detached manner but also the individual's role in it :

[/quote]Saturn however, while afflicted by detriment and retrogradation is none the less in it's own term and face, lending him a little dignity with which to shield himself, as he is in his own term and face, your brother is not completely vulnerable, he has some power to defend himself and fight his corner, even if only a little. Saturn is in a fixed sign, so he is within circumstances that he must accept, endure and work with, at least for now.

This is EXACTLY the plight that Bi-Polar people face AND for the most part they are like a completely normal person on meds but they will feel that they are fine and stop taking the meds, then the syndrome will come on again most unexpectedly
also people with this affliction actually get addicted to the "high" part of it and then miss the feeling of it claiming that the meds dont allow them to be passionate people. its very difficult and he is only in the beginning of it as it progresses and heightens in the persons 30s and 40s. alot of bi polar people are suicidal which she should be aware of.

Dracos interpretation is so beautifly detailed and acurate that my attempts at this late hour will pale in comparison and only serve to validate certain obvious points i see



ok heres my chaRT

http://www.publicupload.com/files/ch...ther_be_ok.gif

NO 1` the moon is VOC giving the question its first "NO" answer in regards to his being "ok soon"

3rd house would represent the brother, having pluto in it making aspects to mars in the 8th (his 6th) major anger/control issues, with violent outbursts
this being the querent's eigth, she will see these episodes as life or death struggles possibly suicidal

retrograde saturn in his 8th echoes Dracos' theory on this being a past and reoccuring issue and the slight bit of awareness of what he needs to do on his part but it is difficult and painful and requires more discipline than he can muster, thus he throws himself into situations that require others to step in, having issues w/ taking responsibility and imposes on others, often implying he is an innocent victim, somehow this is someone else's fault or behaving in such a way that he forces others to make descisions for him.She often feels this responsibility bestowed on her as the saturn opposes her (venus)

the condition to the querents view is confusing and unstable and quite worrisome to her with merc conjunct moon in the 6th and her significator, venus, in aspects to moon/merc conjunction, the part of fortune and south node in her 12th could find her seeking out institutionalization for him, or some sort of public mental health program as there could be an issue of lack of insurance for private treatment or exhaustion of private help in the future, another possibility is finding him in jail as is very possible with many bi polar persons w anger issues, this house becomes his 10th house where negative behavior causing struggles w authority figures (so node in his 10th) force him into having help forced on him, part of fortune

w/o going into redundance by repeating Dracos' findings i will end by saying that I feel her pain and it is very hard to be close w/ someone with this disorder. the best thing to do is seek understanding and support in the online community. I had received much help, solace and clarity through several websites and online communities that support people who are related to or have a close connection w a bi polar person.

~Robyn
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  #7  
Unread 03-02-2006, 06:15 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Hi Goca and Robyn,

Quote:
Excelent explanation of this chart!
Cheers Goca!

Robyn:

Quote:
ok first i will say VERY insightful Draco, especially of the condition of which i am highly experienced in that my ex is bi polar. You not only described the affliction in an uncanny detached manner but also the individual's role in it
I am both suprised and pleased by this. I know little to nothing about bi-polar disorder, so it is encouraging to think that I interpreted the chart in a significant manner.

It is very interesting that although each of us conducted three seperate analyses, the heavens found three different ways to give us similar indications. This is why I think it is well worth experimenting with Frawley's technique of using the time and place for which the question is received.

This is what Frawley says upon the matter of different astrologers using different charts, I think I have quoted this elsewhere, but it wouldn't hurt to repeat as it is an interesting point: (my own comments in brackets)

Quote:
...Nor is there any reason why someone should not ask the same question of more than one astrologer (or of more than one chart). Doctors can give second opinions; so can astrologers. Truth is a sturdy beast; it does not run away if more than one person looks at it. Each separate question (or chart) on the same subject is like a cross section of the same situation, as a zoologist might take different cross sections of a worm to put under a micrscope. Different cross sections, but still the same the same worm, so still the same answer. If fifty or five-hundred people ask 'Will we win the next election?', the cosmos, which is an infinately subtle mechanism, will find fifty or five-hundred ways of showing the same answer. No matter how many people examine individual stills from Gone with the Wind, Rhett Butler always leaves at the end.
I tend to think that the time and place at which the question is asked by the querent is laden with their own perceptions and perspectives, and will be more subjective in what it reveals.

Thus, a person who blindly fails to recognise that the person that they love does not care that much about them, who asks 'Does he really love me?' laden with the illusion he they actually does, then the chart is more likely to say 'Yes', in reflection of their own desperations. Not that the chart will not tell the truth, just that in it's subjective reflections, that truth will be harder to find.

A chart drawn from the time and place it is received by an impartial outside investigator, will reveal a different truth, from a more objective perspective.

Of course, this is just my current theory, but both types of chart have revelations to make, albeit from two different points of view. Subjective and objective, both giving valuable insights, and what better than to have a perspective from both sides of the fence?

This does raise the question though, what if two charts do give contradictory results? Perhaps this reflects inherent contradictions in the issue at hand, or perhaps the chart bearing the strongest testimony by way of dignities, receptions and aspects should be considered the stronger testimony?

It is very intriguing, that three of us using different charts drew very comparable conclusions, and in combination the results give us stronger testimony than each chart would alone - there is indeed more than one way to skin a cat.

Thanks for experimenting with Frawleys technique along with me Robyn, because the results intrigue me to continue experimenting with this method.

Thanks too to Goca for your take on the 'question posed' chart, because this offers us a more complete perspective and a control against which to compare.

All we need now to complete our readings is for Cherie to come along and tell us how she relates to all this.

Draco
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  #8  
Unread 03-02-2006, 06:33 PM
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hey draco

yes i find this discussion and ensuing interpretations very interesting and educational , what a bonus for the querent to have so much relevant info from different perspectives!
very cool.....yes we need some commentary from Lisa....but i feel confident that we have enlightened her to this matter in some way.

~Robyn
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  #9  
Unread 03-04-2006, 08:39 PM
cherie cherie is offline
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hi, first of all let me say thanks for your attencion, draco, fensi and ruby now...is it possible that you say all that again...in portuguese? kidding the truth is that my english is not very good, so i had a little trouble understanding your posts. In fact i had to read them three times before i post my comment. Also, my knowlegde about astrology is very litle, so it was not easy for me to understand your interpretations of my brother's illness. Well, the three of you used different ways to analyse the situation, but i understand you came up with very similar conclusions.
My brother's condition will always be a continual battle with ups and downs.
That's not good news for me, but i will always believe that he will get better and be ok, not soon, but in four or five months. He is suffering of this illness, since Jannuary. At the beginning, he did not respond to the medication, so his psychiatrist had to change it three times already. At the moment, he is responding very well to the medication, and his condition is stable, he is doing a sleep therapy. I will keep you informed about the situation

kisses to you all, cherie :win
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Unread 03-05-2006, 10:48 PM
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cherie, don't forget to mention the part where...

by Draco
Quote:
The 9th is the 4th house from the 6th. This causes me to wonder if there is a history of bi-polar disorder in the family. As the 4th (father) from the 6th (disorder) might suggest that the illness has been inherited through the paternal line, or onset through a fatherly influence.
This pulled out your interest didint it?
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  #11  
Unread 03-07-2006, 09:28 PM
cherie cherie is offline
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Hey MidnightDevil, thank's for the tip

Draco, maybe you're right, when you suggest that there is a possibility that this ilness might be hereditary in our family. The psyquiatrist said that too, in fact she is quite sure of it.
My father thinks (he is not sure, 'cause he doesn't remember very well), that when his father died, long time ago, he was suffering of some mental disease. But we are not sure, because there are no registers of anything. So...maybe the stars are right :roll:


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