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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 07-08-2016, 04:09 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Here's a table of dignities
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File Type: jpg dignidades.jpg (72.7 KB, 7 views)

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  #27  
Unread 07-08-2016, 07:15 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Since you brought that up, I’ve always considered Mercury in Gem/Virgo to be both domiciled and exalted, and when in Sag/Pisc. both detriment and fall, but some authors (and members here) put Merc as exalted in Virgo rather than both. What?
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  #28  
Unread 07-08-2016, 07:28 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Mercury rules Gemini and Virgo, is exalted in Virgo, falls in Sag, and is in both fall and detriment in Pisces.
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  #29  
Unread 07-08-2016, 07:57 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Please explain?
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  #30  
Unread 07-08-2016, 09:18 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

You were mistaken that Mercury is exalted in Gemini, is all.

Is that your question, or is it something else?
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  #31  
Unread 07-08-2016, 09:35 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Nope. Thatís all there is to it... for now . Thanks!
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  #32  
Unread 07-08-2016, 11:15 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

Take a look at Dorotheus
for some early writing on triplicity rulers
plus chart examples.

DOROTHEUS - CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM
Book 1
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus1.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM
Book 2
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus2.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM
Book 3
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus3.pdf
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  #33  
Unread 07-08-2016, 08:54 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Thanks for all you input, guys.

Richard
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  #34  
Unread 07-10-2016, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
No. Saturn is the participatory ruler of the fire triplicity. This means that in the last third of the native's life (which can be sooner than 61 years, as you previously posted) he sets the tone of life if the sect light of the native's chart is in a fire sign.

Take a look at Dorotheus for some early writing on triplicity rulers plus chart examples, and Bonatti for later.
I have been reading Dorotheus for the last couple of days and I understand what you are speaking of now. I haven't started with reading any of Bonnati's work yet, without having done that, I am still curious as to how one can determine when a triplicity ruler starts to rule the next portion of life ahead of the 29 to 30 year mark. Can this be determined by the handing over to the next chronocrator in succession?
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  #35  
Unread 07-11-2016, 07:16 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

"Notice that Sun-Saturn is the only polarity in Common between the two groups: it is the greatest polarity. But how strange from our viewpoint, because we would think of pairing according to heliocentric astronomical qualities like speed."

(J. Lee Lehman PhD) Essential Dignities page 21-22

She is quoting Ramesey in the following:

"...when Jupiter and Venus have not two of the aforesaid dignities in the same sign, nor in the second, third, or fourth, they have seven degrees allotted to them for their term..."
(Pages 71-72, author's emphasis)

"...the planet which is the ruler by sign, exaltation,or triplicity tends to get the first term position most frequently."

(J. Lee Lehman PhD) Essential DignitiesnPp.133-134

[edited quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator]

This is where I started thinking and I asked the question.
With the Ancients Awareness of Saturn's Detriment in Leo; why would he have been given the first terms in the Chaldean system of terms lest he held some sort of special significance. If he is but a participatory ruler in the triplicity then I don't see how that would signify his placement in the first degrees in which most exalted planets are given.

Any thoughts?

Last edited by wilsontc; 07-12-2016 at 02:24 PM.
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  #36  
Unread 07-11-2016, 03:30 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Was that from her correspondence?
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  #37  
Unread 07-11-2016, 11:56 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Was that from her correspondence?
No. These paragraphs are from her book. This is where I started thinking of the question that I asked. I will write her formally in a few days.
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  #38  
Unread 07-13-2016, 04:33 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
"Notice that Sun-Saturn is the only polarity in Common between the two groups: it is the greatest polarity. But how strange from our viewpoint, because we would think of pairing according to heliocentric astronomical qualities like speed."

(J. Lee Lehman PhD) Essential Dignities page 21-22

She is quoting Ramesey in the following:

"...when Jupiter and Venus have not two of the aforesaid dignities in the same sign, nor in the second, third, or fourth, they have seven degrees allotted to them for their term..."
(Pages 71-72, author's emphasis)

"...the planet which is the ruler by sign, exaltation,or triplicity tends to get the first term position most frequently."

(J. Lee Lehman PhD) Essential DignitiesnPp.133-134

[edited quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator]

This is where I started thinking and I asked the question.
With the Ancients Awareness of Saturn's Detriment in Leo; why would he have been given the first terms in the Chaldean system of terms lest he held some sort of special significance. If he is but a participatory ruler in the triplicity then I don't see how that would signify his placement in the first degrees in which most exalted planets are given.

Any thoughts?
I feel like I used to know the answer to this, but it escapes me at the moment. Something to keep in mind is that the Chaldean system is symetrical, and takes into consideration planetary hours (dang, I'm certain if I can put my finger on it the Chaldean terms relate to the table of hours...) as well as sect.

All of that said, every traditional astrologer practicing, writing, or learning that I know has adopted the Egyptian terms in their readings. Sometimes when we are first learning it is easy to get diverted trying to find the logic behind the system. The thing is, learn the system and get good at reading charts before exploring other ideas. That, then, is when you will become sucessful.
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  #39  
Unread 07-13-2016, 04:41 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Saturn exalted in Leo BAHAHa Good one...
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  #40  
Unread 07-13-2016, 05:08 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

You should read Deb Houlding's paper 'Ptolemy's Terms and Conditions'. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pdf/Hould...lemy_terms.pdf

It talks about the Saturn taking the first term of Leo dilemma round about page 30.
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  #41  
Unread 07-13-2016, 06:42 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I feel like I used to know the answer to this, but it escapes me at the moment. Something to keep in mind is that the Chaldean system is symetrical, and takes into consideration planetary hours (dang, I'm certain if I can put my finger on it the Chaldean terms relate to the table of hours...) as well as sect.
[/QUOTE]All of that said, every traditional astrologer practicing, writing, or learning that I know has adopted the Egyptian terms in their readings.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Some use both but for different charts I have learned.



[/QUOTE] Sometimes when we are first learning it is easy to get diverted trying to find the logic behind the system. The thing is, learn the system and get good at reading charts before exploring other ideas. That, then, is when you will become sucessful.[/QUOTE]


Thank you Tsmall, I certainly will take your advice.
I have been performing research for something larger for almost a year now pertaining to the terms and planetary movements through-out history. I was hoping to share it with other contacts that I have made over this last year at ISAR in October, but I have a lot of work to still do before I can present anything. My main focus of the question was mainly focused on certain time periods where the shift of focus may have occurred and whether the term had been given to Saturn because of logic or because of something greater such as the consideration of his stateliness that was respected by the elders. I certainly have no desire to become a rock star astrologer honestly. My mind probes deeper than that and My only desire is to open the mind to something greater that others may already see that I see. I am not trying to re-invent the wheel or anything along those terms. Just shift the focus using real time data. It is pretty complex to a point however.

I certainly do respect you and the other Traditional Astrologers greatly for you all do have a wonderful gift and are usually most accurate. I hope that I can return the same to the community in time.

Last edited by Jehan; 07-13-2016 at 06:49 AM.
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  #42  
Unread 07-14-2016, 12:37 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post

Yes. Some use both but for different charts I have learned.
That would be interesting to discuss.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
Thank you Tsmall, I certainly will take your advice.
I have been performing research for something larger for almost a year now pertaining to the terms and planetary movements through-out history. I was hoping to share it with other contacts that I have made over this last year at ISAR in October, but I have a lot of work to still do before I can present anything. My main focus of the question was mainly focused on certain time periods where the shift of focus may have occurred and whether the term had been given to Saturn because of logic or because of something greater such as the consideration of his stateliness that was respected by the elders. I certainly have no desire to become a rock star astrologer honestly. My mind probes deeper than that and My only desire is to open the mind to something greater that others may already see that I see. I am not trying to re-invent the wheel or anything along those terms. Just shift the focus using real time data. It is pretty complex to a point however.
I certainly didn't mean to sound condescending, though on reflection I can see that my "advice" could be taken that way. If you read the link Oddity provided you will have your answer re: the logic behind the Chaldean terms. {Aside, I knew I knew the answer to this, lol. Thanks, Odd!}

As I mentioned above, I have not heard of astrologers using different sets of terms for different techniques. If that is something you are interested in exploring, I (and I'm certain others) am very interested in hearing about it.
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  #43  
Unread 07-14-2016, 04:44 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
You should read Deb Houlding's paper 'Ptolemy's Terms and Conditions'. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pdf/Hould...lemy_terms.pdf

It talks about the Saturn taking the first term of Leo dilemma round about page 30.
Thank you for reminding me of this. I have read this previously but needed to read this again obviously. I have read so much in this last year that it is somewhat challenging to remember each article. I have so many notes written down that I feel like I need to hire someone to come in and organize for me.
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  #44  
Unread 07-14-2016, 05:56 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
That would be interesting to discuss.








I certainly didn't mean to sound condescending, though on reflection I can see that my "advice" could be taken that way. If you read the link Oddity provided you will have your answer re: the logic behind the Chaldean terms. {Aside, I knew I knew the answer to this, lol. Thanks, Odd!}

As I mentioned above, I have not heard of astrologers using different sets of terms for different techniques. If that is something you are interested in exploring, I (and I'm certain others) am very interested in hearing about it.
Just deleted last comment on here and sent you a pm.

If there is a thread on here where charts have been worked through with both terms showing a significance then can someone please attach a link here.
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