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  #1  
Unread 04-06-2012, 05:15 AM
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Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Hi dhundhun, I was wondering what your opinion on the siddereal zodiac is? If you have commented in an existing thread on this, I'd love to read.

Hi byjove,

Most of the sidereal astrology posts, I deleted. But recently "JUPITERASC" provided a good link:
www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html
Refer to "ayanamsas" in above document.

1. Sidereal zodiac is used in western astrology by many including Fagan-Bradley.

2. Vedic Astrology in South India mostly uses "Krishnamurti" or "Raman" ayanamsa.

3. Vedic Astrology in North India mostly uses "Lahiri" ayanamsa. Link to Vedic Astrology is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotish
Just starting thread so that it is open for various inputs.

Cheers


Last edited by dhundhun; 04-06-2012 at 05:45 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 04-06-2012, 05:27 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Differentiators between Western and Vedic are:
===================================

1. In Western aspects are like conjunction, opposition, trine, square, etc. That is followed by aspect patterns.

In Vedic it is called dristi, where whole house is used. Next refinement is Vergas

2. In Western delineation is progression

In Vedic most of the delineation uses Vimsottari Mahadasa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasha_%28astrology%29
These Dasas uses only nine planets and there is no scope of inclusion of any other planet. Start of dasa is decided from location of Moon.

3. In Vedic, transit is with reference to Moon's placement.


Moon becomes significant - start of dasa (or Mahadasa) as well as transit


4. Vedic astrology is very rich in Astrological Yogas.

Last edited by dhundhun; 04-06-2012 at 05:44 AM.
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Unread 04-06-2012, 05:42 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Great Year and relationship with fixed stars:
================================
The difference between Tropical Zodic and Sidereal Zodiac keep on increasing 0 degree 0 minute and 51 seconds every year. So one degree every 72 years.

The Great Year is about 25800 years, when both zodiac becomes same. In every sign earths axis remains for about 2130 years - that makes different ages of earth. The Galactic alignment once in 25800 years is related to this Great Year.

In general Signs has taken properties from Fixed Stars. With increasing gap between Tropical Zodic and Sidereal Zodiac, many times questions are asked - How Signs in Tropical Zodic will maintain its properties?

For example many times Tropical Leo might find himself/herself like Cancer.

Last edited by dhundhun; 04-06-2012 at 05:44 AM.
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Unread 04-06-2012, 05:44 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhundhun View Post
Hi dhundhun, I was wondering what your opinion on the siddereal zodiac is? If you have commented in an existing thread on this, I'd love to read.

Hi byjove,

Most of the sidereal astrology posts, I deleted. But recently "JUPITERASC" provided a good link:
www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html
Refer to "ayanamsas" in above document.

1. Sidereal zodiac is used in western astrology by many including Fagan-Bradley.

2. Vadic Astrology in South India mostly uses "Krishnamurti" or "Raman" ayanamsa.

3. Vadic Astrology in North India mostly uses "Lahiri" ayanamsa. Link to Vadic Astrology is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotish
Just starting thread so that it is open for various inputs.

Cheers

An almost unknown (perhaps it is "underground") ayanamsa which I discovered in use among certain South Indian Jaimini and Nadi adepts (in Kerala, around the Ponmudi forest) is the Alcyone/Krittika (or Pleiades) ayanamsa (there is a vague hint of this also in the 1920 Robson book on fixed stars) This ayanamsa starts at 149 BC (ie, 0 Aries is given at that year), and at the current time (2012) the degree correction to tropical positions is 30degrees09minutes (about 6 degrees further along than Lahiri)-calculation for any date using this ayanamsa is date+149x50.24, result divided by 3600 = ayanamsa correction for any given year.

I must admit from my own experiments that I have been mostly disappointed with (what I consider to be) the accuracy of the Lahiri, Fagan-Bradley and B.V. Raman ayanamsas relative to delineative results from sidereal charts erected using them (please note that I am referring only to my own experiences!!) However, in my experiments I have had much more encouraging results using the Alcyone/Krittika ayanamsa-much better delineative accuracy (although I still remain a tropicalist, based on what I consider to be even better accuracy using tropical)

This Pleiades (Alcyone/Krittika) ayanamsa is close to other ayanamsas suggested by Cheiro and MacGregor Mathers ("Golden Dawn" Mathers) in the first years of the 20th century (this one starts at 99 BC), and is also close to the well-investigated (Gould et al) Hipparchus ayanamsa, which starts @ 109 BC: notice that all of these variant ayanamsas are within 50 years of each other, and that all of them are very much earlier than the generally used (in sidereal astrology) ayanamsas of Lahiri, Fagan-Bradley and B.V. Raman...

Presented only as food for thought, for the open-minded!
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  #5  
Unread 04-06-2012, 06:07 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Dasa/Mahadasa has five levels:

Dasa/MahaDasa - AnterDasa/Bhukti - PratyantaraDasa - SukshmaDasa - PranaDasa

In practice first three are used. In General
Dasa results are based on planet's ownership of house
Anterdasa results are based on planet's placement in house
Pratyantardas results are based in planetory relationship
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  #6  
Unread 04-06-2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhundhun View Post
Dasa/Mahadasa has five levels:


In practice first three are used. In General
Dasa results are based on planet's ownership of house
Anterdasa results are based on planet's placement in house
Pratyantardas results are based in planetory relationship
Just curious , I am not all in the mood of debating on this or rather it is not my intension to argue with you, would you please mention the source of this information / text ?

As I am reading this for the first time, so thought of asking you for the original source from where I can get further insights.
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  #7  
Unread 04-06-2012, 01:02 PM
anoop.indirapuramghazibad anoop.indirapuramghazibad is offline
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Sidereal Astrology, then we must understand what is Sidereal Time - That means Time depending on rotation of earth on daily basis. Now for us Sun is involved and Moon also. Even Universal time is also based on this.
Now why Sun, because our entire system, is based on sun. Such as Time, Year etc.
Then comes our Vedic System and calculation of desired time of event etc.
Vedic is giving lot of importance to Moon for calculation purpose. As explained by dhundhun.
But regarding Dasha Vishomttari is one of the dasha used by Astrologers. Yogini Dasha, (Char Dasha, sthir dasha, mandook dasha etc) Jaimini, then Dwisaptshiti Dasha, Chaturshiti Dasha etc
Many dashas are for specific purpose or in specific conditions.
Vedic Astrology is Using Various Chakras for various purposes.
These methods helps us to identify the closest accuracy level of predictions.

I am sorry, i have no idea about Western Astrology, so I can not brief you accordingly. I am sure, certainly there must be different steps and methods in Western astrology to achieve closest accuracy level of predictions.
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  #8  
Unread 04-06-2012, 10:23 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Quote:
Originally Posted by anoop.indirapuramghazibad View Post
Sidereal Astrology, then we must understand what is Sidereal Time - That means Time depending on rotation of earth on daily basis. Now for us Sun is involved and Moon also. Even Universal time is also based on this.
Now why Sun, because our entire system, is based on sun. Such as Time, Year etc.
Then comes our Vedic System and calculation of desired time of event etc.
Vedic is giving lot of importance to Moon for calculation purpose. As explained by dhundhun
.
anoop.indirapuramghazibad, here is a link to a visual illustration along with an audio commentary, of the principle of "Earth's motion around the Sun" and how Sidereal Time is measured. Tropical measurement is also illustrated so the viewer can see the differences between the two ways of measuring Time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #9  
Unread 05-29-2016, 12:37 PM
Arena Arena is offline
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
An almost unknown (perhaps it is "underground") ayanamsa which I discovered in use among certain South Indian Jaimini and Nadi adepts (in Kerala, around the Ponmudi forest) is the Alcyone/Krittika (or Pleiades) ayanamsa (there is a vague hint of this also in the 1920 Robson book on fixed stars) This ayanamsa starts at 149 BC (ie, 0 Aries is given at that year), and at the current time (2012) the degree correction to tropical positions is 30degrees09minutes (about 6 degrees further along than Lahiri)-calculation for any date using this ayanamsa is date+149x50.24, result divided by 3600 = ayanamsa correction for any given year.

I must admit from my own experiments that I have been mostly disappointed with (what I consider to be) the accuracy of the Lahiri, Fagan-Bradley and B.V. Raman ayanamsas relative to delineative results from sidereal charts erected using them (please note that I am referring only to my own experiences!!) However, in my experiments I have had much more encouraging results using the Alcyone/Krittika ayanamsa-much better delineative accuracy (although I still remain a tropicalist, based on what I consider to be even better accuracy using tropical)

This Pleiades (Alcyone/Krittika) ayanamsa is close to other ayanamsas suggested by Cheiro and MacGregor Mathers ("Golden Dawn" Mathers) in the first years of the 20th century (this one starts at 99 BC), and is also close to the well-investigated (Gould et al) Hipparchus ayanamsa, which starts @ 109 BC: notice that all of these variant ayanamsas are within 50 years of each other, and that all of them are very much earlier than the generally used (in sidereal astrology) ayanamsas of Lahiri, Fagan-Bradley and B.V. Raman...

Presented only as food for thought, for the open-minded!
Interestingly dr. farr has pointed out this "around 30degr" difference in ayanamsa which seems to coincide with what Cayce spoke about when he said:
Quote:
“For instance, the astrological influences are not in the form or manner as has been so oft and is so oft judged by the purely astrological aspects from records. For the shifting, the changes that have been wrought in the zodiac as well as the signs and positions of this material sphere in relationship to the whole have been misjudged.” (1770-2)

“....the variations in time have been corrected by the Persians and not by the Egyptians. The Egyptian calculations are thirty degrees off. “(2011-3)

“For most astrologers are nearly thirty degrees off in their reckoning in the present.” (3376-2)
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  #10  
Unread 05-29-2016, 04:03 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Any illustrative write-ups available for this ayanamsha would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
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  #11  
Unread 05-29-2016, 05:24 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

I myself am searching for material to read about this.
I found some quotes from Cayce about the zodiac he says is 30 degr off.

I also found that Mathers from The Golden Dawn seems to have used Regulus at 0 Leo ayanamsa - which is a sidereal zodiac 30 degr from the tropical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel...Gregor_Mathers
http://www.golden-dawn.org/truth_mathers.html
http://www.golden-dawn.org/apology-of-mathers.html

Last edited by Arena; 05-29-2016 at 05:28 PM.
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  #12  
Unread 05-29-2016, 07:00 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Thanks for prompt sharing. I was hoping for articles/studies which gave examples (using astrology) to demonstrate the practical validity of these ayanamsha values.

If you do come across any, please do share.

Thanks and regards,
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  #13  
Unread 05-29-2016, 07:26 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Yes, I am hoping to find some of those too
Am searching and googling. I'll share if I find - haven't come across real research on that particular ayanamsa.

What a great time we live in - having the internet for free information.
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  #14  
Unread 05-30-2016, 05:24 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

This discussion is good for theoretical knowledge. The proof of pudding is in the eating. Lahiri has consistently given me good results. An ayanamsa has to fit into the overall analytic framework of an astrologer's system. In this light what is good for me may not be so for some other.
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Unread 05-30-2016, 01:37 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
Yes, I am hoping to find some of those too
Am searching and googling. I'll share if I find - haven't come across real research on that particular ayanamsa.

What a great time we live in - having the internet for free information.
Arena,

Keep looking and you may find such illustrative examples. Respected Dr. Farr who introduced this ayanamsha in this thread must have some examples from South (India) and seemed pretty convinced of its validity in practice, so it was not based on anecdotal hearsay, I am sure.

Ayanamsha is a moving duck in jyotish (and sidereal astrology in general)and has been so during the last 100-150 years.

Unfortunately, jyotish classics have not given any examples of horoscopes etc so we can not be sure what values were in vogue before Lahiri or Raman although jyotish is believed to have been in practice for thousands of years as far back as when oral tradition prevailed.

Now we have sub-sets of claims about different systems of calculations and delineations. System approach, KP, Jaimini, nadi-jyotish etc. on top of the ayanamsha claims, each claiming phenomenally-high success rates. The role of para-technical factors such as intuition etc might also be operating in many cases. It is anything but black and white!

Regards,
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Unread 06-02-2016, 07:57 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology: Question from "byjove"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystalpages View Post
Arena,

Keep looking and you may find such illustrative examples. Respected Dr. Farr who introduced this ayanamsha in this thread must have some examples from South (India) and seemed pretty convinced of its validity in practice, so it was not based on anecdotal hearsay, I am sure.

Ayanamsha is a moving duck in jyotish (and sidereal astrology in general)and has been so during the last 100-150 years.

Unfortunately, jyotish classics have not given any examples of horoscopes etc so we can not be sure what values were in vogue before Lahiri or Raman although jyotish is believed to have been in practice for thousands of years as far back as when oral tradition prevailed.

Now we have sub-sets of claims about different systems of calculations and delineations. System approach, KP, Jaimini, nadi-jyotish etc. on top of the ayanamsha claims, each claiming phenomenally-high success rates. The role of para-technical factors such as intuition etc might also be operating in many cases. It is anything but black and white!

Regards,
Precisely!
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