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Unread 08-14-2014, 01:08 AM
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Alternative house joy and rulership?

I've heard a few people talking about this new system of house rulership.

I know that it involves Saturn ruling the 1st and 8th house, and joying in the 12th.

I haven't been able to find much information on it, though. But it seems like a very clever idea.

Most people just associate the houses with their natural signs and say the 1st house is associated with Mars, 2nd house is associated with Venus, etc.

Does anyone know who came up with this idea and whether they wrote a book on it?

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Unread 08-14-2014, 03:26 AM
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Re: Alternative house joy and rulership?

The system you're referring to is the planetary co-significators of the houses. It begins with assigning Saturn to the First house (as he is the first planet coming down the order of the spheres) and assigning the other planets in the Chaldean order around the rest of the houses. The idea is we can investigate the accidental significator (the one who rules the Sign occupying the cusp) and then for further testimony we can investigate the co-significator, which would be this planet, and finally the "natural" significator, which would be a planet who...naturally signifies that thing.

So for instance if we were investigating wealth and Gemini was on the Second house cusp we would first look to Mercury to see what it is up to, then any planets in the Second, and then Jupiter who is the co-significator of this house and the planet who naturally rules wealth. Keep in mind that the accidental significator is the one who is likely going to be most important, unless there are other planets inside that house.

This system is not new in any sense. It is pretty old, at least the medieval period, though many will know it being explicitly pointed out by William Lilly. It's also not a method of house rulership, just another layer when investigating the topics of houses.

The planetary joys are a different scheme that are very, very old. Most are familiar with it from Marcus Manilius who appeared to be using something of an altered scheme, but it's been very consistent throughout the Hellenistic and Medieval tradition with Mercury joying in the First, Moon in the Third, Venus in the Fifth, Mars in the Sixth, Sun the Ninth, Jupiter the Eleventh, and Saturn the Twelfth. The planetary joys, as well as the whole sign aspects made to the Ascendant, are one of the foundations for the meanings of the houses.
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Last edited by Kaiousei no Senshi; 08-14-2014 at 03:30 AM.
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Unread 08-14-2014, 05:05 AM
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Re: Alternative house joy and rulership?

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
The system you're referring to is the planetary co-significators of the houses. It begins with assigning Saturn to the First house (as he is the first planet coming down the order of the spheres) and assigning the other planets in the Chaldean order around the rest of the houses. The idea is we can investigate the accidental significator (the one who rules the Sign occupying the cusp) and then for further testimony we can investigate the co-significator, which would be this planet, and finally the "natural" significator, which would be a planet who...naturally signifies that thing.
Ah, that's interesting. That sounds like a technique that would mostly be used in Horary, though.

Quote:
So for instance if we were investigating wealth and Gemini was on the Second house cusp we would first look to Mercury to see what it is up to, then any planets in the Second, and then Jupiter who is the co-significator of this house and the planet who naturally rules wealth. Keep in mind that the accidental significator is the one who is likely going to be most important, unless there are other planets inside that house.
So, if Jupiter is actually IN the Second house, or Saturn is actually IN the First house... presumably that would be noteworthy, right?

That does make sense, though. I've had people argue with me that the First house is always connected to Mars as well as the ruling sign, and I usually say that I don't think there is any such connection unless Aries or Scorpio rules the First house.

Basically, I generally think of signs as having ruling planets, and houses being ruled in turn by the signs.

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This system is not new in any sense. It is pretty old, at least the medieval period, though many will know it being explicitly pointed out by William Lilly. It's also not a method of house rulership, just another layer when investigating the topics of houses.
Huh, this is another old one? Seems like the only new idea that's remotely interesting is Sabian Symbols... all the other ones seem to involve tossing in random dwarf planets and asteroids, or oversimplifying house meanings.

Seems that astrology is just like philosophy, in the sense that the Greeks and Romans already came up with most of the good ideas, and the new ones tend to illustrate a lack of creativity. LOL.
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The planetary joys are a different scheme that are very, very old. Most are familiar with it from Marcus Manilius who appeared to be using something of an altered scheme, but it's been very consistent throughout the Hellenistic and Medieval tradition with Mercury joying in the First, Moon in the Third, Venus in the Fifth, Mars in the Sixth, Sun the Ninth, Jupiter the Eleventh, and Saturn the Twelfth. The planetary joys, as well as the whole sign aspects made to the Ascendant, are one of the foundations for the meanings of the houses.
Oh, this was the one that seemed especially clever to me. I mean, the Twelfth house signifies things like self-undoing and restriction, and so does Saturn. I thought it was a particularly apt characterization.

I bet if guys like Manilius and Lilly were still around today to promote their ideas and do research, they would be very popular and well-respected. They would probably also have developed some amazing new ideas and insights over time.
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Unread 08-14-2014, 05:31 AM
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Re: Alternative house joy and rulership?

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Ah, that's interesting. That sounds like a technique that would mostly be used in Horary, though.
Equally useful in all branches, but most notably considered in natal texts.

Quote:
So, if Jupiter is actually IN the Second house, or Saturn is actually IN the First house... presumably that would be noteworthy, right?

That does make sense, though. I've had people argue with me that the First house is always connected to Mars as well as the ruling sign, and I usually say that I don't think there is any such connection unless Aries or Scorpio rules the First house.

Basically, I generally think of signs as having ruling planets, and houses being ruled in turn by the signs.
Yes, typically planets in houses have a bit more consideration than the lord of the house, but it's important to remember that matters of a house emanate from its lord. So while Jupiter in the Second might be a generally good and positive thing, what may be more important is understanding why Jupiter as Lord of the Ninth is in the Second and what that could mean.

It's probably not a good idea to think of signs as ruling anything. Signs don't have power to initiate events, that lies specifically with the planets.

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Seems that astrology is just like philosophy, in the sense that the Greeks and Romans already came up with most of the good ideas, and the new ones tend to illustrate a lack of creativity. LOL.
Don't forget the Arabians.

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Oh, this was the one that seemed especially clever to me. I mean, the Twelfth house signifies things like self-undoing and restriction, and so does Saturn. I thought it was a particularly apt characterization.
Ha yes, there is a reason for this. The natures of the planets influenced the houses of their joy.

You are new to classical astrology?
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Unread 08-14-2014, 07:05 AM
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Re: Alternative house joy and rulership?

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Yes, typically planets in houses have a bit more consideration than the lord of the house, but it's important to remember that matters of a house emanate from its lord. So while Jupiter in the Second might be a generally good and positive thing, what may be more important is understanding why Jupiter as Lord of the Ninth is in the Second and what that could mean.
Ah, what do you mean by Lord of the Ninth in this case? Do you mean that if Sagittarius was on the Ninth house cusp and Jupiter was in the Second house, then the Lord of the Ninth would be in the Second?

Or are you talking about something else?

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It's probably not a good idea to think of signs as ruling anything. Signs don't have power to initiate events, that lies specifically with the planets.
That was probably an awkward turn of phase. What I meant was more that the houses are ruled by the planets that rule the signs, and that the houses don't actually have their own ruling planets. I basically mean that since my Ascendant is Gemini, I consider my First house to be ruled by Mercury, and definitely not Mars.

It's not so much that the signs cause action, it's that the sign's ruling planets become the rulers of the house.


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Don't forget the Arabians.
Oh yeah, the Arabic parts/lots. Those are interesting as well.

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Ha yes, there is a reason for this. The natures of the planets influenced the houses of their joy.

You are new to classical astrology?
Sort of new. The only thing I really know for certain about Classical/traditional astrology is that they stopped counting planets at Saturn, and that people who use it today also stop at Saturn.

The way I see it, modern astrology includes all the heritage of traditional, plus any new ideas or discoveries that prove useful. Even in the modern Astrology, the three new ones are considered secondary influences and are usually ignored if they're not prominent in the chart.

Also, I have the flexibility to toss aside or keep any idea I find valuable, regardless of when or where it was invented. For instance, I could choose to ignore Pluto but pay attention to Uranus, use Sabian symbols, and also use fixed stars, twelfth parts, decans, and Arabic parts, as well as the original definitions of the houses (rather than the weird watered-down ones). With traditional, you're required to reject all modern ideas simply because they're new.

It's probably worth looking into, though... if only so that I don't keep mistaking old ideas for new ones! >.< Plus, it really seems like the "core" of Astrology is the older stuff, so learning it would give me a better idea of the whole.

Last edited by athenian200; 08-14-2014 at 07:36 AM.
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Unread 08-14-2014, 07:08 PM
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Re: Alternative house joy and rulership?

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Ah, what do you mean by Lord of the Ninth in this case? Do you mean that if Sagittarius was on the Ninth house cusp and Jupiter was in the Second house, then the Lord of the Ninth would be in the Second?
Yes, I was just coming up with something hypothetical to make the point more clear.

Quote:
Oh yeah, the Arabic parts/lots. Those are interesting as well.
Haha, no. The "Arabic" Parts are actually from Hellenistic astrology, though many more were devised during astrology's travel throughout the Middle East. What I meant was that the Arab, Persian, and Jewish astrologers maintained and developed astrology during the early to middle Medieval period, so their contribution and influence shouldn't be overlooked.

Quote:
Sort of new. The only thing I really know for certain about Classical/traditional astrology is that they stopped counting planets at Saturn, and that people who use it today also stop at Saturn.

The way I see it, modern astrology includes all the heritage of traditional, plus any new ideas or discoveries that prove useful. Even in the modern Astrology, the three new ones are considered secondary influences and are usually ignored if they're not prominent in the chart.

Also, I have the flexibility to toss aside or keep any idea I find valuable, regardless of when or where it was invented. For instance, I could choose to ignore Pluto but pay attention to Uranus, use Sabian symbols, and also use fixed stars, twelfth parts, decans, and Arabic parts, as well as the original definitions of the houses (rather than the weird watered-down ones). With traditional, you're required to reject all modern ideas simply because they're new.
I don't think your interpretation of classical astrology is very accurate. No one should reject modern additions simply because they are new, but it becomes easier to understand how things "should" be when comparing things with the foundational philosophies. Many classical astrologers consider Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto if they are prominent in charts, but do not consider them rulers of Aquarius, Pisces, and Scorpio because the philosophies behind the classical rulership schemes really don't allow any new additions without a complete restructuring of astrology as a whole.

Flexibility is good, and I think it's a very good approach you have. Feel free to PM me any questions or concerns you have in the future.
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Unread 08-14-2014, 11:44 PM
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Re: Alternative house joy and rulership?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Yes, I was just coming up with something hypothetical to make the point more clear.
Ah, I'm just not used to them being called lords. I usually say something like "ruler of the X house in the Y house," and then mention something like finances or possessions being influenced through travel and philosophy.

I understood it, though. Partly because whenever I see words like "Lord," "Master," or "Ruler," some case/declension of the Latin word "Dominus" flashes in my mind for a split second, and thus my subconscious mind seems to read them all as the same word. Even though my conscious mind is then jarred and uncertain because I know they're supposed to be separate words.

Quote:
Haha, no. The "Arabic" Parts are actually from Hellenistic astrology, though many more were devised during astrology's travel throughout the Middle East. What I meant was that the Arab, Persian, and Jewish astrologers maintained and developed astrology during the early to middle Medieval period, so their contribution and influence shouldn't be overlooked.
They've been around THAT long? I knew it dated back to at least the 13th century with Arab mathematicians, but at this rate it seems like the majority of this stuff was in use before the first century AD.

I wonder, are they called Arabic parts because they were re-introduced to Europe via the Arabs after they were lost in the Dark Ages, and people didn't realize the origins at first?

Quote:
I don't think your interpretation of classical astrology is very accurate. No one should reject modern additions simply because they are new, but it becomes easier to understand how things "should" be when comparing things with the foundational philosophies. Many classical astrologers consider Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto if they are prominent in charts, but do not consider them rulers of Aquarius, Pisces, and Scorpio because the philosophies behind the classical rulership schemes really don't allow any new additions without a complete restructuring of astrology as a whole.

Flexibility is good, and I think it's a very good approach you have. Feel free to PM me any questions or concerns you have in the future.
Yeah, I was always curious about that. I remember arguing in a thread recently that since Pluto has been demoted as a planet and is incredibly distant/small, giving rulership of Scorpio back to Mars might be a good idea. However, they said they couldn't give it back because Mars still counts as a ruler of Scorpio anyway. Some "co-rulership" thing. That one kind of surprised me, I kind of pictured it as Mars and Pluto fighting over who gets to rule Scorpio. Didn't exactly picture them sharing, LOL.

I basically assumed that the original planets were being treated like the Sun and Moon now, only having strong influence in night or day having lost one of those rulerships. So it seems that I never understood the modern scheme in the first place, and now it seems like there was no plan at all for restructuring it. I'm left with the feeling that someone just tossed an idea out there and it stuck.

But yeah, I definitely will contact you with any further questions. It seems like you know a lot about this kind of Astrology.
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