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  #51  
Unread 08-21-2007, 09:49 PM
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Re: Utah Miners

Hahaha. I'm good, Starlink. No, I'm okay with my SR, I'll deal with it one day at a time.

I do hope it is the First house for what caused the mine collapse. I know in Event charts the initiator of the event is the first and what is acted upon is the Seventh. So, that would make whatever caused the mine to collapse the First and the mine itself the Seventh, but a mine could also be the Fourth. Hm hm hm... I just wonder what the importance of Pluto on the Descendant is...

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  #52  
Unread 08-21-2007, 09:50 PM
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Re: Utah Miners

Hah, I am even less of an expert on event charts, but this one has some very interesting things going on. Note Pluto conjunct the DSC, and Venus (ruler of the 12th of 'hidden things' and the 5th of risks) right on the 4th cusp, the house of mines. KNS is on the right track with the 1st/4th representing the mine collapsing on itself, I think.

The miners themselves are possibly represented by the 6th house: laborers and 'servants': they were serving the mine. Mars, the 6th ruler, is in terrible condition. Either that, or because the miners were the victims, they would be given the 7th, with that Pluto right there.

I'm going to go off and study this chart awhile, then give my thruppence worth on it. I do wish Draco were around; he's ace at event charts!

Thanks for putting up the chart, KNS!

Best,
AG
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  #53  
Unread 08-22-2007, 01:27 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Kaiousei,

I was discussing the mine disaster with a friend, who told me that 3 rescuers had been killed. (Something I didn't know - no tv.) He said he was wondering if they could still be alive, since it had only been a week or so. I quickly replied that a post on the astrology forum I belonged to gave the date as August 5, so the chances of the miners being alive were slim to none. My friend went to check out the date on the internet. He came up with the time of occurrence as: August 6, 2007 @ 1:48am. (8:48 UTC)
This was from the following link:

http://seismo.berkeley.edu/~peggy/Utah20070806.htm

Not trying to be nit-picky, but a factual time is important for an event chart. Just wondering.....

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  #54  
Unread 08-22-2007, 03:05 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Oh no no, not at all Freedom I completely understand. I actually had to guess some on this chart and I wasn't very happy with that. Give me a bit to try and find the articles I used. I'll edit them in when I find them.

Got the town here, it's titled Huntington.

Ho ho, it seems you are correct and I have the wrong day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo News!
At Crandall Canyon, there has been little evidence that the six miners survived the initial Aug. 6 collapse.
I really had to guess the day, I found an article that said '11 days ago' and it was dated the 16th, So, 11-16=5, I don't know what's up with that though, I guess reporters can't count days or the story ran early.

As for the time, I found another site that said 2:48.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mine Collapse: A Chronology
2:48 a.m.: Crandall Canyon mine collapse traps six miners.
I'm sorry everyone, it seems I got the right place and time, but wrong day.

This is the correct chart:


Okay, luckily very little has changed. The one thing I do think to be much more interesting is Luna's change. Luna's next aspect is a Square to Saturn, lord of the Eighth, she then conjuncts Mars and will transfer the light of Saturn to him. Mars is the lord of the Sixth (which Archergirl took to be the miners) and the Eleventh house (which I think is the rescuers since the Eleventh deals with friends and benefactors). I think this signifies the deaths of both the miners and the rescuers as the outcome as this martian conjunction is Luna's last aspect in the Sign of Taurus.

Mercury has become further Combust, making the cause more difficult to see.

I'm sorry about the misleading chart everyone, this is really quite an embarassing moment for me. Hopefully my interpretations will help me regain my honor.
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Last edited by Kaiousei no Senshi; 08-22-2007 at 03:42 AM.
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  #55  
Unread 08-22-2007, 03:59 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Kaiousei,

Thanks for being so cool! It's all for the sake of accuracy, eh?

A question, though.... the time was UTC... is that the same as Greenwich?

And, if so, Mountain time, which Utah is on, is 7 hours behind Greenwich according to my calculations. So, do you think the 2:48am (6 hours behind) that you found is because of Daylight Savings Time? I couldn't figure it out at first, then the DST idea occurred to me.... Just curious....... I'm so spoiled by AstroDienst, since they figure all these things for you....

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Last edited by freedomlover; 08-22-2007 at 04:01 AM.
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  #56  
Unread 08-22-2007, 04:05 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Yep, all for accuracy. I'm glad you caught me.

I think it is the same, I don't really know what's up with it. MST is seven hours behind, the six hours behind would make it in my time zone, but I don't know why the Salt Lake Tribune would be using CDT times in their chronology.

Even in the chart I posted it says 8:48 for the Universal time...so I guess it's okay. <.< We may never really know... >.> :P

Now...if you'll excuse me...Who Wants to be a Superhero is on!!!
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  #57  
Unread 08-22-2007, 04:10 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Kaiousei,

Quote:
Even in the chart I posted it says 8:48 for the Universal time...so I guess it's okay. <.< We may never really know... >.> :P
I think we have our answer......
Quote:
I'm so spoiled by AstroDienst, since they figure all these things for you....
I can't believe I didn't notice it was an AstroDienst chart! They would have taken DST into account. So.... the 2:48 would be accurate, I would think.

But as to accuracy.... like you said, nothing changed a whole lot. It might be important for timing, though? But, of course, the more exact the time, the better the chart.. so.... we make a good team, Kaiousei!

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  #58  
Unread 08-22-2007, 06:41 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Originally Posted by archergirl
Yes, don't take what I said the wrong way, 20questions. I never said this was a frivolous question; only that this question doesn't, if you look at it objectively, have a direct impact on your personal life. Hence my suggestion that these charts are best left to event astrology. There is also a problem with horaries for these questions as there will be a hundred other people out there also doing horaries, so whose chart is the right one, if any? If you do an event chart (and I think you can find data on the time of the explosion, btw) you may find the entire situation laid out before you in a most elegant manner, with a much clearer reading of it. Sometimes, horary really *isn't* the way to go, and that's something I guess you pick up as you study it.

I think I explained myself and my POV pretty clearly, actually. I've been studying horary for about fifteen years, off and on; I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it long enough to have reasons for my suggestions.

Cheers,
AG
Yep, that's a really decent explanation and I am listening. I'll still probably look into this chart for potential answers just because the things going on within the chart are all so focussed. I am really not very schooled in horary per se but when a chart is so crystallized, I figure it has something to tell. So, it will be interesting trying to figure out the chart's message. Really appreciate everyone's commentary so far. Raya, I thought your interpretation was super great and it was really thought provoking in terrms of where to go next


Ps: "Aug 6th 2007, 2:46 am, Huntingtin Utah" are my details for the event chart.

Last edited by 20questions; 08-22-2007 at 06:53 AM.
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  #59  
Unread 08-23-2007, 03:30 AM
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Void of Course

the moon is void of course in this chart right ?

well I found it interesting that it was, as I was reading a definition on the site for void of course, an atrology wiki:

Quote:
a void of course indicates that there will be no changes in the current situation.
makes one wonder about the fate of the miners, especially with the via combusta too.
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Last edited by RayAustin; 08-23-2007 at 03:34 AM.
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  #60  
Unread 08-23-2007, 03:37 AM
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Re: Void of Course

If you're talking about the event chart, Luna still has to Square Saturn and Conjoin with Mars...
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  #61  
Unread 08-23-2007, 04:30 AM
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Re: Void of Course

ArcherGirl wrote:

Quote:
as the 12th is also the house of self-undoing, the miners brought it upon themselves somehow.
Kaiousei wrote:

Quote:
Though, I do want to put the mine as the Fourth house, especially since this makes the cause and the mine the same thing, so perhaps this is just showing the mines collapse on itself. Also the Twelfth ruler is conjunct the IC line, the mine undid itself? Well that would make sense.
I thought you might find this information interesting:

Quote:
At Crandall Canyon, the miners were working at depths that test the limits of safety. Although Murray denies it, federal regulatory officials say that retreat mining was being practiced. Retreat mining is a perilous technique in which pillars of coal hold up portions of the roof, and when the area is mined, the pillars are pulled down, capturing the useful coal and collapsing the roof.
This is an excerpt from this link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert...d_b_60899.html

The article also talks about cover-ups and lies involving the powers-that-be. Someone on this thread (AG, I think) stated that the chart suggested alot of this. I tried to find the quote, but it's late, and my eyes were tired.....

Also,

20 Questions wrote:

Quote:
I asked: what happened to the Utah miners.
My take on it, reading the 4th house, end of the matter, is this:
The miners are Venus(r) in Leo moving away from the Sun in Leo. I see this as their life energy fading away (moving farther away from their vitality- the Sun). The Moon is in their house in Scorpio, the sign of life and death. The last aspect it makes before it leaves its sign is a square to Mercury at 29* Leo in the 4th - a critical degree.

Medically, Mercury in Leo deals with this:

Quote:
Mercury afflicted in Leo gives a tendency to pain in the back, fainting, and palpitation of the heart.
I would say that this says that the life or death struggle was ended by a combination of Leo/Gemini things. Gemini/Mercury rules respiratory and Leo rules exhaustion and back trouble. So probably they were pinned, unable to move, and there was not enough air. Have you ever been in a car with a bunch of people talking for a long time and noticed how it heats up the atmosphere of the car? I suspect that what little air was left heated up and the oxygen ran out - they probably passed out from heat and lack of oxygen. Also, Gemini/Mercury rules the nervous system, so the panic, along with everything else, could have caused heart attacks, as well. Something along those lines.

Not a pretty picture, I know, but that's the way I see the chart answering your question, "What happened to the Utah miners?"
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Last edited by freedomlover; 08-24-2007 at 06:10 PM.
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  #62  
Unread 08-23-2007, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
the article also talks about cover-ups and lies involving the powers-that-be. Someone on this thread (AG, I think) stated that the chart suggested alot of this. I tried to find the quote, but it's late, and my eyes were tired.....
it was meeeeee!

Quote:
I would say that this says that the life or death struggle was ended by a combination of Leo/Gemini things. Gemini/Mercury rules respiratory and Leo rules exhaustion and back trouble. So probably they were pinned, unable to move, and there was not enough air. Have you ever been in a car with a bunch of people talking for a long time and noticed how it heats up the atmosphere of the car? I suspect that what little air was left heated up and the oxygen ran out - they probably passed out from heat and lack of oxygen. Also, Gemini/Mercury rules the nervous system, so the panic, along with everything else, could have caused heart attacks, as well. Someting along those lines.

Not a pretty picture, I know, but that's the way I see the chart answering your question, "What happened to the Utah miners?"
early on reading the chart, I did have suspicions that they died of lack of oxygen.. it was the pisces thing--I sort of thought drowning in a sense, but obviously not in water--just the fact of lack of air.. but that seemed too loose and weird.

but anyway, I did suggest that the miners, or actually most importantly--the *mining company* was aware, they were all most likely aware that the area was at risk but there were valuable coal deposits.. the latter of that sentence I gathered from the news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by From News Article
Murray, a self-made millionaire, owns companies producing more than 20 million tons of coal annually. He's known as a hard-driving executive who pushes the limits in his mines, seeking to extract the last dime from the coal.
and quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by From News Article
But if the conditions were unsafe, surely the workers would join together to avoid risking their lives. CNN.com reports that workers were concerned but feared reprisals if they spoke out. They had no union. Bizarrely, days after the miners were trapped, Murray went on a wild rant against the United Mine Workers, suggesting that they were using the tragedy to try to organize the mine. But sadly for the workers, the UMWA wasn't there to stand up for them.
oh I love conspiracy theories, not so much when it's actually costing people their lives, though ...

blahhh. i can't stand filthy greed!
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  #63  
Unread 08-23-2007, 04:52 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Ra-div,

Quote:
the article also talks about cover-ups and lies involving the powers-that-be. Someone on this thread (AG, I think) stated that the chart suggested alot of this. I tried to find the quote, but it's late, and my eyes were tired..... it was meeeeee!
Sorry for the misquote

I also did not read the entire thread line for line. ( I have trouble focusing on large blocks of information - can only process small bites right now.) But I remembered reading earlier in the thread the other day what Kaiousei said about the mine collapsing in on itself. So, when I saw that article, I thought, "Hmmm..... dangerous mining technique where they cause the mine to collapse in on itself in patches.... hmmm." So I thought I"d post the article. When I went back to find Kaousei's quote, I noticed ArcherGirl's, too. And yours, r a, just got a little confused.

Anyway, I was sickened by the article, too. I don't know how anybody can live with themselves knowing they deliberately put others at risk -- and all to line their pockets.
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  #64  
Unread 08-23-2007, 05:11 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedomlove
Anyway, I was sickened by the article, too. I don't know how anybody can live with themselves knowing they deliberately put others at risk -- and all to line their pockets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ra divinington
blahhh. i can't stand filthy greed!
Okay, I'm not really big into conspiracy theories and whatnot, but something about these two quotes caught my attention. So, I decided to check the chart.

My first idea was to turn the chart to get the house that represented the corporation. So, the Tenth from the Sixth (as the bossess of the miners) is the Third, ruled by Leo, the most powerful planet in the chart. Then I thought that turning it might be silly, and the radical Tenth house might be the heads of the corporation. Well, this is Jupiter, the second most powerful planet in the chart (if he weren't retrograde). I thought it very strange that both ways had the corporation responsible for this mess shown by the two most powerful planets, and both with no afflictions. Especially when you consider the significators for the miners and the rescuers are so weak. Hmm...

Food for thought.
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  #65  
Unread 08-24-2007, 06:37 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

I hope you guys don’t mind if I just throw out some things about this Event Chart. I’ve been looking at it but I don’t know what planet to use as the significator in the end. I was thinking Saturn because it rules miners but Archergirl brought up the ruler of the 6th governing employees and servants and that seems just as legitimate. But I’ll just launch off from my original assumption and see if it leads anywhere. First, am I right in thinking that separating aspects at the time of the chart would be describing the background to the event? And applying aspects would signify what happens next? If Saturn is the significator, then the conjunction to Venus and the square to Mars, which are both separating, would describe the backdrop to the collapse or even the reasons for the collapse? The applying trine to Pluto would then seem to describe what actually happened to the miners following the collapse? (As well as aspects to the moon) The trine from Saturn to Pluto is almost exactly exact ( it lacks like 30 minutes or something), which seems to say “immediate death” but Saturn is a slow moving planet so it would, in fact, have taken a while to perfect. Ugh, I’m probably bringing too much natal astrology into this. I know that ‘timing’ in mundane astrology has to do with the houses that the planets under consideration occupy and not their natural planetary speed





Anyway. There were some other things I wanted to bring up as well.





1) Jupiter in the 6th house of health is very exalted. Jupiter is in its ruler ship sign, Sag, and it is trine the Sun, which is also in its ruler ship sign, Leo. And the Sun is located in the same house where the miners’ significator is located, the 3rd. And in an instance of synchronicity, Jupiter is located in the same house as Pluto, the most obvious force for death in the chart. In other words: we see very strong planets signifying “health” which are located in the same houses where strong planets signifying a “death influence” are located. That seems to me to signal a struggle between life and death and to say that they did not die immediately.



Ugh, I won’t ramble much more about this but I also think it’s significant that all the significators to do with mines and miners in this chart have ties to the planet Mercury, and by extension, to the theme of “communication”. Saturn, natural ruler of miners is in the 3rd house. The 4th house, governing both “mines” and the “end of matters” is ruled by mercury. I don’t know what to make of that but it seems significant... The theme of “communication” seems related to the issue of their “life and death”. I know that’s a pretty convenient interpretation from the news reports but I am trying to just go by what’s shown in the chart itself. . Anyway, sheesh, I’ll hold off on looking at the moon for the time being.





Ps: @ Kaiousei no Senshi ….I thought that was a pretty remarkable interpretation of the moon in this chart and it does seem to really reflect what happened later with the rescue workers.



Anyway, I look forward to comments here.

Ps, sorry for the weird fonts. I don't know what's up with that and I can't seem to fix it, lol!

Last edited by 20questions; 08-24-2007 at 07:36 AM.
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  #66  
Unread 08-24-2007, 07:23 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

I thought it might be actually useful to compare this chart with another "mine disaster chart" that happened in early 2006 and where we at least know what really happened: It was the Sago Mine Explosion and 12 of 13 trapped miners died. They died of asphyxiation following an explosion ( it's easy to reearch so I won't bother posting any links here). It might help to compare the 2 charts. Ugh, again I don't know if I can post more than a link to a chart but maybe someone, if they are interested, can actually host the whole chart on the website?

http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/d...0613.10052.gif




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  #67  
Unread 08-24-2007, 07:02 PM
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Re: Utah Miners

Jupiter does not rule the house of health. He rules the house of accident and disease. Jupiter is very strong and domiclie and triplicity and we know that this is very appropriate since the power of the accident was so great. The only thing I think is slightly weird is that Jupiter is cadent. Jupiter Trines Sol, the lord of the third, as the ruler of rumors. We hear rumors that they may be alive, but I seriously doubt it by this chart. I think it's interesting that Jupiter is retrograde in the chart and the accident seems to have been caused by this retreat mining method they employed.

Anyone else notice the Lord of rumors Beams the cause and the mine? hm...
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  #68  
Unread 08-25-2007, 05:35 AM
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Re: Utah Miners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi
Jupiter does not rule the house of health. He rules the house of accident and disease. Jupiter is very strong and domiclie and triplicity and we know that this is very appropriate since the power of the accident was so great. The only thing I think is slightly weird is that Jupiter is cadent. Jupiter Trines Sol, the lord of the third, as the ruler of rumors. We hear rumors that they may be alive, but I seriously doubt it by this chart. I think it's interesting that Jupiter is retrograde in the chart and the accident seems to have been caused by this retreat mining method they employed.

Anyone else notice the Lord of rumors Beams the cause and the mine? hm...
Kaiousei- Hi. No I wasn't saying that Jupiter ruled the 6th, just that it is in the 6th and because it is so strong it would seem to lend a protective influence to their health. It looks like Mars/Pluto rules the 6th and that is pretty violent. I just thought Jupiter being placed there, and being quite strong, might signify some kind of ability on the part of the miners to be able to withstand the initial collapse...at least initially. My guess from both this chart and also the time elapsed since the collapse is that the miners have died I think everyone thinks that at this point . But looking to the chart for answers: I'm just not sure if they died immediately because of the collapse or if they died because they were not found in time. I brought up the theme of 'mecury' and 'communication' because, if they survived the initial collapse, then communication about their whereabouts would have really been the key factor in their deaths. They weren't found in time. I thought that with Saturn so tied to "mercury themes" and ruling the house of death, that was a pretty significant possibility.
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