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  #126  
Unread 02-04-2012, 08:14 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
I dont think of it as "the 12th house planet can't see the Ascendant", but rather that the Ascendant can't see the 12th house planet. And I don't think being in the same sign should automatically imbue a planet with similar qualities as the Ascendant and 1st house. Yes, they're in the same sign, but they're not one single entity- they're two separate things.
The Ascendant is simply a place or point and is inanimate and therefore 'sees' nothing.

It is the planet that cannot see the ascendant - not vice versa!

EXAMPLE: If someone is walking up a hill but has travelled only half way up that hill and is therefore far from the top of that hill, then it makes sense to say that "the person cannot see the top of the hill". However, it would be ludicrous to say that "the top of the hill cannot see the person"

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  #127  
Unread 02-04-2012, 08:51 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
The Ascendant is simply a place or point and is inanimate and therefore 'sees' nothing.

It is the planet that cannot see the ascendant - not vice versa!

EXAMPLE: If someone is walking up a hill but has travelled only half way up that hill and is therefore far from the top of that hill, then it makes sense to say that "the person cannot see the top of the hill". However, it would be ludicrous to say that "the top of the hill cannot see the person"
Actually, if the hill had eyes, then it could see the person, so technically yes, the top of the hill can "see" the person depending on how the word "see" is defined. The planets are just bodies of rock as far as I know, so they and the Ascendant should be able to "see" each other.
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Unread 02-04-2012, 08:51 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I don't think it makes much sense to look at it from the perspective of the planet. The planet doesn't determine the house, does it?
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  #129  
Unread 02-04-2012, 08:57 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

For the record, I'm not new to astrology. I've been studying it for years.

Rebel- If the person can't see the top of the hill, then generally the top of the hill (or a person standing there) could not see them. Unless the top of the hill can crane its neck around, but if the Ascendant could do that too (figuratively), then the 12th house wouldn't be hidden.
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  #130  
Unread 02-04-2012, 09:44 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
Actually, if the hill had eyes, then it could see the person, so technically yes, the top of the hill can "see" the person depending on how the word "see" is defined. The planets are just bodies of rock as far as I know, so they and the Ascendant should be able to "see" each other.
"IF" is very different from "HAS"
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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
The planets are just bodies of rock as far as I know, so they and the Ascendant should be able to "see" each other.
Astrologically, planets are 'personified' and therefore are said to 'see'. The Ascendant however is 'a place' and as such conventionally in astrology does not 'see'
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  #131  
Unread 02-04-2012, 09:45 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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I don't think it makes much sense to look at it from the perspective of the planet. T
Explain why not
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  #132  
Unread 02-04-2012, 09:46 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
I don't think it makes much sense to look at it from the perspective of the planet. The planet doesn't determine the house, does it?
No, the planet doesn't determine the house, but does the house rule the planet, or is it the other way around?

Interesting kennedyrose, that you have been studying astrology for years, yet haven't yet understood the way the whole sign house system works. Earlier you asked

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenndyrosewhith View Post
So the cusps in whole signs don't have any rulers? Do the signs still mean anything?
Considering it is called "whole sign" I'd say the answer is pretty obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
My question was if the signs on the cusps in the whole signs system matter like they do in quadrant systems, not what the cusps mean.

I suppose none of this is an issue if you don't bother with houses. Are you not supposed to bother with houses in whole signs?
The easy answer to this question is as has already been explained. The cusps are contained within the signs/houses (they are one in the same, and that is the point), and do not define where the house starts. Signs matter, houses matter, and rulers of both matter. Because one house is one sign, there is only one ruler, which coincidently will also rule the cusp of that house.

For myself, I apologize if the nature of my own answers here have been geared toward someone who appeared to be asking questions based on a lack of astrological knowledge. However, as that is not the case, I want to be clear that what you are really doing is engaging in a debate about whole signs, and not really trying to understand it?
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  #133  
Unread 02-04-2012, 10:04 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

JUPITERASC- The sentence directly after the one you quoted explains why.

Tsmall- The only reason I asked those questions was because RebelUranian said whole signs avoids accidental rulership (and also that they don't bother with houses too much, or they don't think the houses are all that important, can't remember the exact quote). That didn't make sense to both my understanding of accidental rulership and houses.
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  #134  
Unread 02-04-2012, 10:12 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
JUPITERASC- The sentence directly after the one you quoted explains why..
If you refer to the following sentence
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
I don't think it makes much sense to look at it from the perspective of the planet. The planet doesn't determine the house, does it?
Your comment is unclear. Explain your meaning when you say that "looking at it from the perspective of a planet" has something to do with your question "the planet doesn't determine the house, does it?"
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  #135  
Unread 02-05-2012, 01:44 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
For the record, I'm not new to astrology. I've been studying it for years.

Rebel- If the person can't see the top of the hill, then generally the top of the hill (or a person standing there) could not see them. Unless the top of the hill can crane its neck around, but if the Ascendant could do that too (figuratively), then the 12th house wouldn't be hidden.
The 12th house is hidden because it is not in aspect with the 12th. The same is true of the 2nd, 6th, and especially the 8th. The "Water houses" are traditionally "dark houses." The "Earth houses" are not, although the 6th house is usually pretty difficult to see as well. The 2nd trines the 10th and its angle means an increase in personal power so it is not bad depending on who you are.

I have seen a lot of people who are like "I have been practicing astrology for years" (often with a number like 20 years) but they do not understand what I am saying. That is sad, because I have only been doing this for months and I do not feel like I know enough to practice very much without feeling like I am putting someone's life at stake.

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  #136  
Unread 02-05-2012, 01:56 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
The 12th house is hidden because it is not in aspect with the 12th. The same is true of the 2nd, 6th, and especially the 8th. The "Water houses" are traditionally "dark houses." The "Earth houses" are not, although the 6th house is usually pretty difficult to see as well. The 2nd trines the 10th and its angle means an increase in personal power so it is not bad depending on who you are.

I have seen a lot of people who are like "I have been practicing astrology for years" (often with a number like 20 years) but they do not understand what I am saying. That is sad, because I have only been doing this for months and I do not feel like I know enough to practice very much without feeling like I am putting someone's life at stake
.
Many modern astrologers do not understand these concepts simply because these concepts are practiced by traditional astrology!
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  #137  
Unread 02-05-2012, 04:06 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

One note: the term accidental house rulership refers to a house being under the influence of any other sign/planetary ruler, than its "natural" (mundane) ruler: ie, the mundane ("natural") house rulers (in later Traditional and also in Modernist astrology) start with Aries for the 1st house and go around the circle to Pisces for the 12th house-these are referred to as the "natural" (or, more technically, mundane) rulers of the houses; now in an actual birthchart, if any other signs occupy the 12 houses, then these are referred to as "accidental" house rulers: eg, if Taurus is the ascending sign, it could be referred to as being the "accidental" ruler of the 1st house; in the example, Aries would be on the 12th house, and so Aries would be termed the "accidental ruler" of the 12th house, etc, etc.

Early Western astrology did not have this term (accidental rulership) or concept, as it became developed over the centuries.
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  #138  
Unread 02-06-2012, 01:43 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

JUPITERASC- It doesn't make sense to me to, when determining where the influence of a point stretches to (Ascendant), you use a body (planet) that is not that point. Or rather, you use a planet to justify why that point's influence stretches that far. I don't think that's a good way to look at it.

Now I use topocentric. I like how it uses the exact location of the birth to construct the houses, and create cusps (modem definition) that don't fall apart at the poles. I think the chart should accurately reflect the sky, and the 1st house should start at the horizon. So I just can't get behind whole signs.

RebelUranian- I'm assuming you meant the 1st. So it's an aspect thing, then? I don't use aspects by sign (all planets in Aries are trine to all planets in Leo), so again, I can't subscribe to the idea that all planets in the same sign as the Ascendant belong in the 1st house. If a planet is close to the Ascendant, I'll start to interpret it as being conjuct the Ascendant, and operating as if in the 1st.

I didn't mean it like "i've been studying for years and so I'm an expert", but rather "I've been studying for years so I at least know the basics".

Dr. farr- Yeah, that was my understanding of accidental rulerships



I'm getting the impression that the problem here is different ways of thinking, and different ways of approaching astrology.
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  #139  
Unread 02-06-2012, 02:10 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
JUPITERASC- It doesn't make sense to me to, when determining where the influence of a point stretches to (Ascendant), you use a body (planet) that is not that point. Or rather, you use a planet to justify why that point's influence stretches that far. I don't think that's a good way to look at it.
Your comment is unclear
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Unread 02-06-2012, 03:04 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I'm referring to saying a planet in the same sign as the Ascendant must be able to "see" it, and therefore belongs in the same house as the Ascendant (the 1st). What does it matter if the planet can "see" the Ascendant, if the planet does not determine where the Ascendant is?
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  #141  
Unread 02-06-2012, 03:23 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
I'm referring to saying a planet in the same sign as the Ascendant must be able to "see" it, and therefore belongs in the same house as the Ascendant (the 1st). What does it matter if the planet can "see" the Ascendant, if the planet does not determine where the Ascendant is?
This good link gives advice on the rationale of aspects http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects2.html
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  #142  
Unread 02-06-2012, 03:37 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
I'm getting the impression that the problem here is different ways of thinking, and different ways of approaching astrology.



I believe you are correct: it is all about point of view, outlook and approach!

(Note: IF I had not discovered whole sign (back in the late 1990's) I would almost certainly be using the topocentric format today (as an improvement upon the Placidus format which I had used for several decades before discovering whole sign)
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  #143  
Unread 02-17-2012, 07:25 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I'm currently on the same struggle of determining which House system to use because my planets shift entirely! I find Placidus closer to my life espescially in explaining relationships but find my chart points weaker in comparison to Whole signs.

I had a thought about TIME. Even though mine is documented on certificate, I don't expect the staff/ doctors to accurately Note the time the baby is born. I know because I've been in the position. Is there a possibility to FINE TUNE time & planet placements?
For example, I have a Moon 0'3 of Libra but some of the descriptions seem so off-handed which made me think that perhaps my critical, analytical side stems from Virgo rather than Libra.

Any suggestions anyone?
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  #144  
Unread 02-17-2012, 08:05 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by Blackempress View Post
I'm currently on the same struggle of determining which House system to use because my planets shift entirely! I find Placidus closer to my life espescially in explaining relationships but find my chart points weaker in comparison to Whole signs.

I had a thought about TIME. Even though mine is documented on certificate, I don't expect the staff/ doctors to accurately Note the time the baby is born. I know because I've been in the position. Is there a possibility to FINE TUNE time & planet placements?
For example, I have a Moon 0'3 of Libra but some of the descriptions seem so off-handed which made me think that perhaps my critical, analytical side stems from Virgo rather than Libra.

Any suggestions anyone?
Hi Blackempress ,

My suggestion , to enable you to fine-tune your birth-chart , is to 'test' the various house systems for personal accuracy . You can do this by creating numerous charts using the different house-systems and then simply monitor current transits (Moon is prime candidate for speed) over the reported house cusps to determine which house system fits you the best .

Then you can fine-tune your final-choice for discrepancies in your reported birth-time by monitoring transits of the other planets (including the Sun) over significant house cusps.
I believe that a 'one degree' difference equates to 4 minutes of time . So, if you can 'feel' , say when Mercury , Venus , Mars or an outer planet crosses your ascendant (or other significant point) then you can make adjustments (fine tune) to your reported birth-time.

best regards !
Ion
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:05 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Hi Blackempress ,

My suggestion , to enable you to fine-tune your birth-chart , is to 'test' the various house systems for personal accuracy . You can do this by creating numerous charts using the different house-systems and then simply monitor current transits (Moon is prime candidate for speed) over the reported house cusps to determine which house system fits you the best .

Then you can fine-tune your final-choice for discrepancies in your reported birth-time by monitoring transits of the other planets (including the Sun) over significant house cusps.
I believe that a 'one degree' difference equates to 4 minutes of time . So, if you can 'feel' , say when Mercury , Venus , Mars or an outer planet crosses your ascendant (or other significant point) then you can make adjustments (fine tune) to your reported birth-time.
I'm finding that astrology gets more complex as you get deeper. I noticed the need to address this issue because even 3minutes changes my entire element!
Will definitely test this out! Thanks Ion!
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  #146  
Unread 02-17-2012, 09:34 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

black empress qoute "For example, I have a Moon 0'3 of Libra but some of the descriptions seem so off-handed which made me think that perhaps my critical, analytical side stems from Virgo rather than Libra. "

i like what liz greene says in her book 'astrology for lovers' an inappropriately named book with many wonderful insights on the nature of the signs.. of the many brilliant things she says on the signs, she refers to libra as the great perfectionist of the zodiac, not virgo.. i have found this to be a great insight into the sign libra that i hadn't ever heard before i read this book a long time ago.. something for those with libra placements to '''think''' about..
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Unread 02-23-2012, 12:58 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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black empress qoute "For example, I have a Moon 0'3 of Libra but some of the descriptions seem so off-handed which made me think that perhaps my critical, analytical side stems from Virgo rather than Libra. "

i like what liz greene says in her book 'astrology for lovers' an inappropriately named book with many wonderful insights on the nature of the signs.. of the many brilliant things she says on the signs, she refers to libra as the great perfectionist of the zodiac, not virgo.. i have found this to be a great insight into the sign libra that i hadn't ever heard before i read this book a long time ago.. something for those with libra placements to '''think''' about..
True! But the indecision is so **** annoying!
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