One orbit of the sun by pluto requires 248 years approximatelyIt must be noted that i follow mundane astrology,
so can be rusty with birth charts, but i love Robert Hand, and always follow his links to mundane astrology,
as an overall astrologer i find him the best,
for fixed stars i follow Bernadette Brady!
With the Ingress Charts above, i find the Washington Chart fascinating
regarding the Ukrainian Crises, tap on chart on previous link thread section to make larger.
Robert Hand uses Pluto in mundane astrology,
and JupiterAsc will be interested in the parans regarding Washington DC ,
as Jupiter and Alnilam, Belt of Orion are rising at location at 12:53:06.
Obviously different ways to value mundane astrology,
but Robert Hand wouldn't have come by insight by not using Pluto!
For those following and reading the topic (without commenting), what konrad posted might sound a bit confusing actually, if one has never read about hyleg/alcocoden/anareta.
**just adding this for any newby readers
Most of the life longevity predictions techniques are done assuming a path from the Hyleg's initial starting point, up to a 90°.
Essentially:
- the hyleg is the planet representing life (it is the predominant luminary).
- the alcocoden, the planet that acts as reagent of the hyleg.
- anareta de planets that hurt the hyleg (the malefics + the other luminary).
The hyleg falling into malefic terms, aspecting anaretas, etc through its 90° pathway will hurt or kill the hyleg.
----------------------------------------
Btw I was chekcing both charts, I must ask though, in the chart posted by Konrad the moon is at gemini? (the one posted by unique_astrology is at cancer)....could any of the charts be wrong with daylight saving time or something?
Btw I checked the original chart posted, pluto doesn't ever actually touch the descendant degree.
The 'oddest of coincidences has an obvious explanationI only posted in direct response to the querent's first post,
thus I haven't followed any of the extraneous discussion that is occurring here,
but if I may intrude just to say... ?
...That the chart you posted waybread is most interesting to me personally
as I see a unique synastry beween it and my own natal chart.
...by the oddest of coincidences,
the Sun is conj. my Pluto which was at 20* Leo 48' when I was born.
In addition, Mars conj. my Part of Play, Venus trine my Mars in the 5th deg. of Gemini, Uranus conj. my Part of Nobility & Honor, Chiron conj. my natal Venus, Jupiter conj. my vertex and the I.C. conj. my Part of Libido/Energy, have certainly piqued my interest... and I use the term "piqued" most conservatively.
If the chart native is a woman and single... introduce me... I promise to be on my best behavior, trust me.
A married man with pluto at the same degree as tens of hundreds of millions of others born during 1951 - 1952 specifically
No, it's a married man. Sorry!
born 1951 - 1952 and so got married aged approximately 56
Konrad, since this hospital record does not appear to have been rounded, I think it's pretty close.
This person definitely comes across to me as Sagittarius rising.
He got married in late September, 2007-- I think the 29th or 30th.
Good thinking Dirius, and thank you for that ~ of course ours is an astrological learning forum
I was just thinking that perhaps we have some newby readers that are interested in the hot topic,
and throwing words like "alcocoden" at them would be confusing.
A short explanation from our part was in order
It seems you have misunderstood my comments
It seems we have a different definition of inner guidance.
the way you use the term is the way the term is designed to be understood
The way I use the term,
inner guidance means guidance coming from within
Your guess is incorrect
and not guiding what is within (which I guess is how you meant it).
obviously astrology is 'a form of guidance for what is within'
In that sense, astrology is not guidance that is coming from within,
but it can be used as guidance for what is within.
'new models' require extensive proof
Sure, if a new model is introduced, it should deliver consistent results before we can adapt it.
since your comment states that the old model remains valid
And the new model doesn't have to invalidate the old model necessarily.
Rock music has 'a bad-boy image' since its inceptionMonk, I've never been much of a rock fan (after I outgrew the Jefferson Airplane, that is )
but after looking at Prince's chart & bio-sketch, it seems to me that Prince is known for (10th house) being a prolific writer and performer
(which would be true of many singer-songwriters,)
but also for a bad-boy image that pushes the boundaries of "acceptable" sexuality, dress, and gender mores.
So perhaps its the sexual provocation of Prince's music where we might expect to see a Plutonian influence.
Parents protesting against sexuality in music is nothing newThis doesn't deny Mars as the "guy" planet, or Venus as the attractant.
With Pluto, however, we'd expect to see more upheaval, and perhaps even a transpersonal kind of influence.
In fact, the sexual lyrics to some of Prince's songs led to the following, excerpted from Wikipedia:
"After Tipper Gore heard her 12-year-old daughter Karenna listening to Prince's song "Darling Nikki", she founded the Parents Music Resource Center.The center advocates the mandatory use of a warning label ("Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics") on the covers of records that have been judged to contain language or lyrical content unsuitable for minors. The recording industry later voluntarily complied with this request.[Of what is considered the Filthy Fifteen Prince's compositions appear no. 1 and no. 2, with the fourth position occupied by his protégée Vanity."
so shared rulership of Scorpio is the sole reason for pluto conenction with sexuality thenModernly, Pluto has a lot to do with sexuality,
because of its (shared) rulership of Scorpio.
So the fact that pluto is 'modernly connected with Scorpio'Just as an historical interlude that some people may find interesting,
it's note worthy that modern rulerships were assigned not because of some arduous research and investigation
- as you often hear from many modern astrologers, but instead by astrologers of the time, cogniscant of the tradition of rulership,
basically went ahead and followed Ptolemy's logic, by assigning the next planet out with the next sign out. So flowing from the Sun is the rulership scheme which normally reflects back to the Moon, but breaking this they just carried on projecting out from the sun. So the next out from the Sun is Mercury, then Venus, then Mars, then Jupiter and then Saturn, and then when Uranus was discovered we see astrologers explicitly invent the rulership to Aquarius because Aquarius is the next sign out after Capricorn, then when Neptune comes along it's assigned the next one out which is Pisces.
This is explicitly stated in the very earliest sources we have for modern rulership.
So the outer planetary rulerships came about by trying to stay true to the tradition at large, and absolutely not by channelling or study of numerous charts.
Then Pluto was discovered and by this stage in the history our understanding of astrology, already getting watered down by the time of Uranus' discovery, find itself in a time where astrology is no longer in the hands of the educated as it once was, but in the hands of the masses, during a time when it was already simplified and watered down and projected through a pseudo-religious lens of the Theosophical movement.
Pluto is discovered and the pattern continues.
It is assigned to Aries
and
there is a conference in Germany to discuss the matter more fully.
UNANIMOUS agreement dictates that Pluto rules Aries,
and the counter idea, that some were positing at the time, that it should rule Scorpio are squashed.
Until someone beats them to print, and writes up the attributions of Pluto and that it rules Scorpio.
The author beat them to print and published a successful book and the rest is history.
It stuck, and from that day forth Pluto magically started ruling Scorpio.
I point this out because in the context of rulership even the modern rulership scheme bows to the traditional logic as much as it can. It does not reinvent anything, instead it recognises the superiority of the traditional schema and tries to accommodate itself into it as much as it can.
The only exception is that the general lack of understanding of the broader tradition by the time of Pluto amongst the basic astrologer, thanks to a deliberate watering down of astrological technique coupled with the unlucky timing of Pluto coming out when the astrological world was still struggling to emerge from the mini-dark period it underwent meant that one of the outers went to another sign.
So for you the sexual connection of pluto is entirely dependent on pluto being co-ruler of ScorpioIf we extend this a bit further, medical/anatomical astrology is one area where signs and houses do overlap.
When you see someone with Scorpio rising, Pluto conjunct the MC, and the sun in the 8th house,
I think it is fair enough to consider him to be an "8th chord" (8th key) type of person.
Scorpio and the 8th house rule the sexual organs
The flaw in your argument is that Prince is only one of many popular 'rock stars'Pluto has a ruthless quality to it that I wouldn't get from Prince's Mars in Aries alone.
An Aries Mars is an aggressive, independent kind of guy,
but other factors in the chart might suggest some concern about the impact of his music on little kids.
Whereas a domineering Pluto is more, "I am going to be me regardless of what you think, or who gets damaged in the process."
We get some cross-currents, as well with Prince's late-degree MC and Pluto in Leo, ruled by an 8th house sun;
the sun's house ruled by a domiciled Mercury square Pluto; and Pluto aspecting a domiciled Venus (trine,) Mars (quincunx,) moon (opposition,) and Saturn (trine.) He's also got the generational Pluto-Neptune sextile. Pluto is a big focalizer in Prince's chart. Pluto/MC quintile sun confers a huge amount of ambition.
If we look at Mars as the traditional ruler of Scorpio (rising sign) we see it domiciled and as the tip of a yod, and also as aspecting multiple planets.
Certainly there's more in Prince's chart that relates to his life that I could discuss, but it does seem to me to be a good illustration of how Pluto functions.
by the way, there are 'bad girls' as well as 'bad boys'So perhaps its the sexual provocation of Prince's music where we might expect to see a Plutonian influence.
In fact, the sexual lyrics to some of Prince's songs led to the following, excerpted from Wikipedia:
"After Tipper Gore heard her 12-year-old daughter Karenna listening to Prince's song "Darling Nikki", she founded the Parents Music Resource Center.The center advocates the mandatory use of a warning label ("Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics") on the covers of records that have been judged to contain language or lyrical content unsuitable for minors. The recording industry later voluntarily complied with this request.[Of what is considered the Filthy Fifteen Prince's compositions appear no. 1 and no. 2, with the fourth position occupied by his protégée Vanity."
Modernly, Pluto has a lot to do with sexuality, because of its (shared) rulership of Scorpio.
A lack of self-understanding is not-unusualRe: the recent Dirius-Muchacho debate:
Sadly, people do not always understand themselves very well.
And probably you see this with a few people you know.
Maybe they tend to act badly or strangely around other people, then wonder why they have few friends.
The abusive alcoholic who doesn't understand why his wife left him.
A common type of question in "read my chart" threads is, "What career am I best suited for?"
or "What would be a good major for me in college?"
Periodically you see OPs from women saying, "Why am I 40 and still single?"
Or from anyone, "Why doesn't my money work out?"
They might be perplexed about their romantic or parent-child relationship, and hope for some insights.
I could go on in this fashion
-- but, no--
many people do not understand themselves very well
and they hope that astrology will help them with some answers.
In the original chart posted, pluto doesn't ever actually touch the descendant degree.
Waybread, a few minutes difference would change the sign, and no offence, but your definition of Sagittarius rising would be different to mine. I can't do any rectification so the dates are not of use.
A lack of self-understanding is not-unusual
however
astrology is not necessarily the most effective way to gain self-understanding
meditation for example
is a proven way to gain better understanding of oneself
Robert Hand wrote Planets in Transits as a computer program[deleted quote of attacking comment - Moderator]
Pluto on the Desc. does not always indicate death any more nor less than all of what you had to dig for
but in this case it was an appropriate aspect.
From Robert Hand's "Planets In Transit"
on the significance of transiting Pluto: "You can always see its effects very clearly
- ranging from machines breaking down and needing repair to full scale destruction and death."
From a prior posting by me elsewhere:
Even with such exactness of planetary placements in relationship with the angles or other planets in a chart there is no exact prediction of what will come to pass. If anybody believes otherwise, I have a life span of almost 70 years, a timed birth chart, and have lived through the conjunctions, sextiles, squares, trines, and oppostions of all of the outer planets to all of my natal planets and angles and would enjoy their interpretations detailing the experiences of any 1 of those transits. A ballpark of positive or negative, easy or difficult, is all that may be forecast without intuition or a 'sixth sense' playing a role. How could it be otherwise when you have but 2 luminaries and 8 planets with which to describe the countless experiences which occur every moment in the world?
The practice of HOROSCOPIC ASTROLOGY is indeed entirely dependent on there being 'an hour marker'Well I agree with one thing, Pluto's Ecliptical co-ordinates should not be used if one is insists on using it.
My reference to the ASC was merely to highlight that the ASC is the thing that everything in the chart is related to,
just as it is the being of the native that joins the various parts of their life together.
I was trying to be concise, but I see it didn't work.
You did say "...whether they are measured in longitude or Right Ascension" though hence the use of my "apparently...". I apologise if I have misunderstood your meaning in "longitude".
[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]
So do we continue to believe in Pluto's force? Personally, everything I read about from an astrological point of view on Pluto I relate to, notoriously so.
viewing Neptune with the use of binoculars is not naked-eye star gazingIncidentally, star-fans, I read an article about the night sky in February.
Apparently under good viewing conditions, there will be some times when you can see Neptune with a good pair of binoculars.
It's not in this site, but it might be of interest for the naked-eye star gazers here: http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/#neptune