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  #76  
Unread 07-19-2019, 05:25 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Somebody pulled a big wooly over our peeps...


verb
past tense: impelled; past participle: impelled

drive, force, or urge (someone) to do something.
"financial difficulties impelled him to desperate measures"
synonyms: force, compel, constrain, oblige, necessitate, require, demand, make, urge, exhort, press, apply pressure, pressure, pressurize, drive, push, spur, prod, goad, incite, prompt, persuade, inspire
"her sense of duty impelled her to keep up appearances"
drive forward; propel.
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"
synonyms: propel, drive, drive forwards, move forwards, move, actuate, set in motion, get going, get moving
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"



Musta' been an implosion we felt...

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  #77  
Unread 07-19-2019, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jac View Post
Somebody pulled a big wooly over our peeps...


verb
past tense: impelled; past participle: impelled

drive, force, or urge (someone) to do something.
"financial difficulties impelled him to desperate measures"
synonyms: force, compel, constrain, oblige, necessitate, require, demand, make, urge, exhort, press, apply pressure, pressure, pressurize, drive, push, spur, prod, goad, incite, prompt, persuade, inspire
"her sense of duty impelled her to keep up appearances"
drive forward; propel.
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"
synonyms: propel, drive, drive forwards, move forwards, move, actuate, set in motion, get going, get moving
"vital energies impel him in unforeseen directions"



Musta' been an implosion we felt...
Need a new descriptive word. How about "Influence" in place of " impel" since impel is a synonym for compel? Not as catchy, but it's on point.
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  #78  
Unread 07-19-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Need a new descriptive word. How about "Influence" in place of " impel" since impel is a synonym for compel? Not as catchy, but it's on point.
Synonyms are not completely overlapping words; you can tell when someoneís used a thesaurus in haste as some music sounds just off.

Impel is nice, it suggests motivation and drive that would have to be countered by a countervailing force of some kind (internal or external). Influence is similar, though it leaves out the urgent flavors of instinct or yearning or considerable pressure.
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  #79  
Unread 07-19-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Synonyms are not completely overlapping words; you can tell when someoneís used a thesaurus in haste as some music sounds just off.

Impel is nice, it suggests motivation and drive that would have to be countered by a countervailing force of some kind (internal or external). Influence is similar, though it leaves out the urgent flavors of instinct or yearning or considerable pressure.
"Living while under the Influence.".
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  #80  
Unread 07-19-2019, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
"Living while under the Influence.".
I really love that! Itís value neutral towards placements and aspects and hilarious both. Itís possible levity on this topic is not value neutral 😆

Last edited by passiflora; 07-19-2019 at 06:23 AM.
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  #81  
Unread 07-19-2019, 07:05 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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To address another subject, a powerful Saturn does not necessarily predispose the native to the study and focus on one and only one subject. Of course it happens, but discipline, of itself, doesn't have to mandate hobbling limitation. One application could be the integration of other disciplines made to create a greater base of knowledge, for example
It means you need to focus on one thing at a time to build mastery of a subject which can further lead you into other things but dabbling many things simultaneously may give you the impression that you are a master of so many things but Saturn would say don't kid yourself you have not spent much time here and again unless it is necessary there is no need for anyone to become master at anything.
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  #82  
Unread 07-19-2019, 08:17 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Living under the influence !!! I love that hahahah .

Thought I had figured out Saturn but I haven't. I haven't seen anyone really figure it out yet. It will end up being a mysterious planet haha. Maybe cos mine is in Pisces and is a shapeshifter haha.
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  #83  
Unread 07-19-2019, 08:47 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It means you need to focus on one thing at a time to build mastery of a subject which can further lead you into other things but dabbling many things simultaneously may give you the impression that you are a master of so many things but Saturn would say don't kid yourself you have not spent much time here and again unless it is necessary there is no need for anyone to become master at anything.
Quite the assumption to denigrate earnest study to "dabbling".
Apparently you can't conceive of dedication to more than one field.

But you feel you are qualified to speak for Saturn, freely tossing about judgements to strangers.

"There is no need for anyone to become master at anything"?
The reality of a renaissance man or woman is foreign to you.

Go ahead. Call out Saturn. He answers.
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  #84  
Unread 07-19-2019, 08:57 AM
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Living under the influence !!! I love that hahahah .

Thought I had figured out Saturn but I haven't. I haven't seen anyone really figure it out yet. It will end up being a mysterious planet haha. Maybe cos mine is in Pisces and is a shapeshifter haha.
Saturn and Mars--Greater and Lesser Femalefics!
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  #85  
Unread 07-19-2019, 09:37 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Quite the assumption to denigrate earnest study to "dabbling".
Apparently you can't conceive of dedication to more than one field.

But you feel you are qualified to speak for Saturn, freely tossing about judgements to strangers.

"There is no need for anyone to become master at anything"?
The reality of a renaissance man or woman is foreign to you.

Go ahead. Call out Saturn. He answers.

I understand where you are coming from but you started with your first post saying you have Saturn as strong as it can be, shows you believe you are getting special favourism from Saturn. Unless you have a melancholic and have a gloomy outlook on life you can't say you have a strong Saturn, which does not change its position of greater malefic no matter how advance pyschology or quantum mechanics become. In my experience people tend to feel Saturn is giving them the worst cruel treatment ever, even applicable to me but I know people who have been through worse and still go through more every day.

I could say the same thing about you tossing judgements so quickly without going through the earlier posts where I clearly mentioned about renaissance magic. Continuing discussion like this will lead to nowhere. Besides I'm well aware of renaissance man.

I suggest you read the book 'The Cult of the Black Cube' and then we can have a healthy debate to see if your experiences with Saturn match up to your claim that your Saturn is as strong as it can be.
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  #86  
Unread 07-19-2019, 09:47 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by jac View Post
I have Saturn just about as strong as it can be, and what I aspire to observe is all about the relevance of timing, structure and discipline. Most who read this will make the assumption this is bereft of all things cultural, but my primary occupation is cultural.

That said, I grow impatient with indulgences, platitudes and proclamations.
Most of us are on here searching for knowledge gleaned by those who have made the commitment, not daydreams of would-be deities.

The attainment of a solid, sound framework, to then be able to perceive the aspects, lights, and movements to delineate seems to me, a hard won gift. It bewilders me that the process of synthesis is so frequently blown past in deference to attempts to saddle any one factor with a load of properties.

The economy is getting tighter, and I'm likely not alone in my remorse for having to had to give up so many wonderful books for cruel necessity. This is one of the things that make posted quotes such a luxury. So THANK YOU paragraph posters!

To address another subject, a powerful Saturn does not necessarily predispose the native to the study and focus on one and only one subject. Of course it happens, but discipline, of itself, doesn't have to mandate hobbling limitation. One application could be the integration of other disciplines made to create a greater base of knowledge, for example.

Contemporaneous extinction events shine a beam of sarcasm on regularly posted aspirations towards humanity becoming "spiritual beings". We have always had varying degrees and understandings of exactly what that means, but the epitome for most would be after having made our passage to the other side.

One glorious manifestation of Free Will (in staying on point) immensely enjoyed by me, is the ability to utilize that feature put in place thanks to the infinite wisdom of the administrator of the forum; the venerable ignore option.
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Originally Posted by Katie View Post
Hello all,

I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...

I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity.
In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)

With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite.
For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.

That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.

The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.

The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.

But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me. Some have been hard work, a sharp learning curve, but none have been awful. WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart? Okay, Saturn represents the father in a nocturnal chart, and I can see that Saturn's debilities represent my father quite well.... I can see an argument for rectifying my birth time backwards a few minutes so that Saturn rules the IC too, although the time given fits transits and progressions very well. My father is a Capricorn Sun with (I think) a Leo ascendant, and my mother has a Leo ascendant, so a Saturn-ruled IC and Sun-ruled MC would make sense, as I have noticed that in a lot of families the signs on angles and/or Sun and Moon signs tend to repeat themselves.

Regardless, my question is not about rectification! My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me? My mum has Saturn exalted and in triplicity in Libra conjunct the IC, ruling the 6th, 7th and 8th houses in her chart, and squaring her Sun and Venus conjunction in the 12th, and she has had some truly awful Saturn transits. I suppose it is an example of exalted or domicile planets NOT always operating in a positive or 'good' way, depending upon the houses they rule; exalted Saturn ruling two malefic houses in her chart and squaring planets in a third malefic house I guess exaggerates the bad. She has had rheumatoid arthritis since her teens (Saturn ruling 6th and on IC - RA has a genetic, inherited component), and the progression of the disease (and other events such as the deaths of her parents) can be easily tracked by transits and progressions in her chart.

Okay, sorry for rambling on! Any advice or comments much appreciated. I am still very much a beginner and I am in awe of the knowledge that some of the regulars here display. I know I could have posted this question in the forum for natal rather than Traditional astrology, but (a), I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.

I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.

Attachment 46528
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  #87  
Unread 07-19-2019, 09:50 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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In retrospect, everything could be considered "fated", and "just meant to be". Or, alternatively, the end-results of our acts of free-will.
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  #88  
Unread 07-19-2019, 09:55 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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In retrospect, everything could be considered "fated", and "just meant to be". Or, alternatively, the end-results of our acts of free-will.

That is an interesting statement but humans will say my wealth is because of me and my efforts and my losses are because of cruel fortuna
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Unread 07-19-2019, 09:59 AM
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What if astrology can be used to predict what our free-will choices are most likely to be? Does that make them any less free-will choices?
Prediction isn't causation.
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  #90  
Unread 07-19-2019, 10:08 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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That is an interesting statement
but humans will say my wealth is because of me and my efforts
and my losses are because of cruel fortuna
Pars Fortuna aka Part of Fortune is impartial
Pars Fortuna delineates gains as well as losses impartially
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  #91  
Unread 07-19-2019, 10:11 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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What if astrology can be used to predict what our free-will choices are most likely to be? Does that make them any less free-will choices?
Prediction isn't causation.
We are going back to the earlier posts. Astrology was developed to see the influence of fate and work with it, it was never meant for free-will I believe as it was assummed fate has more power to influence so let's work with it. Human nature is when everything goes fine no one cares or stops to ask why my life is so good, why I'm getting laid at breakfast, lunch and dinner . They will only ask when things go wrong and more so when everything goes wrong.
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Unread 07-19-2019, 10:13 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
We are going back to the earlier posts. Astrology was developed to see the influence of fate and work with it, it was never meant for free-will I believe as it was assummed fate has more power to influence so let's work with it. Human nature is when everything goes fine no one cares or stops to ask why my life is so good, why I'm getting laid at breakfast, lunch and dinner . They will only ask when things go wrong and more so when everything goes wrong.
I always appreciate it when things are going well, and consult astrology to see why. Same as when things aren't going so well.
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  #93  
Unread 07-19-2019, 10:15 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Pars Fortuna aka Part of Fortune is impartial
Pars Fortuna delineates gains as well as losses impartially

Joseph Campbell's wisdom for this to be always at the center of wheel of forune. What an incredible man!
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  #94  
Unread 07-19-2019, 10:16 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Pars Fortuna aka Part of Fortune is impartial
Pars Fortuna delineates gains as well as losses impartially
Yes, but that could be a prediction of most likely gains and losses due to our free-will choices. Not the cause of them.
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  #95  
Unread 07-19-2019, 10:17 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I always appreciate it when things are going well, and consult astrology to see why. Same as when things aren't going so well.

People like you are rare but I don't blame people who don't do it either because we are all evolving at our own pace.
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Unread 07-19-2019, 10:23 AM
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People like you are rare but I don't blame people who don't do it either because we are all evolving at our own pace.
Those who can learn from experience have a better chance of making wiser free-will choices.
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  #97  
Unread 07-19-2019, 10:39 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Those who make choices, the consequences of which they dislike
learn to make choices they find more preferable
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Unread 07-19-2019, 04:46 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Why is it that among all things ever created we alone possess free will?
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Unread 07-19-2019, 08:27 PM
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Why is it that among all things ever created we alone possess free will?
It was fated to be so.

Last edited by david starling; 07-19-2019 at 08:30 PM.
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Unread 07-19-2019, 08:32 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Why is it that among all things ever created
we alone possess free will?
Quite
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