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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


View Poll Results: How many of you believe that Humans have FreeWill?
Yes Humans have total FREE WILL 13 35.14%
Probably...Humans have FREE WILL more than 50% of the time 7 18.92%
Maybe...Humans have Free Will less than 50% of the time 4 10.81%
NO... Humans have no FREE WILL at all 13 35.14%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Unread 08-14-2013, 01:58 AM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Please respond to the poll if you believe in Free Will. One of the members has made it clear that s/he does not believe in Free Will at all. S/he implied that there were lots of people in his camp.

I was just wondering how many of us here are in "his/her camp" of not believing in FREE WILL.

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  #2  
Unread 08-14-2013, 02:25 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I don't consider myself to be an astrologer, but yes I believe in free will, at least some form of it. External influences such as who you surround yourself with, your thoughts, opportunities, etc. will either limit or expand this. For me its become easier to dismiss negativity, in this forum I just put members I dislike on ignore. I wouldn't bother with Astrology if I didn't think it could be beneficial. I guess it's just trying to be the best version of yourself, and making the most of what you can with what you currently have and somehow going beyond that, creating new possibilities.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 02:31 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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I don't consider myself to be an astrologer, but yes I believe in free will, at least some form of it. External influences such as who you surround yourself with, your thoughts, opportunities, etc. will either limit or expand this. For me its become easier to dismiss negativity, in this forum I just put members I dislike on ignore. I wouldn't bother with Astrology if I didn't think it could be beneficial. I guess it's just trying to be the best version of yourself, and making the most of what you can with what you currently have and somehow going beyond that, creating new possibilities.
What does ignore do? Does it mean that their posts don't show up?
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Unread 08-14-2013, 02:39 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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What does ignore do? Does it mean that their posts don't show up?
You can see their username and a message stating they are on your ignore list and click to unblock it. So you have the option of just skipping over whatever they wrote without having to keep scrolling down. You can always change the settings and remove them from your ignore list in the user control panel.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 02:43 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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You can see their username and a message stating they are on your ignore list and click to unblock it. So you have the option of just skipping over whatever they wrote without having to keep scrolling down. You can always change the settings and remove them from your ignore list in the user control panel.
Nice. Thanks.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 02:46 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Nice. Thanks.
No problem.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 03:20 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I believe humans have the POTENTIAL for free will, and that this is developed, and freedom from determinism is won, by knowledge, will, action and spiritual development: however reaching the point of freedom from determinism is a rarity in the human condition: nonetheless I voted for the "total free will" choice above, because POTENTIALLY humans do have a POSSIBILITY of reaching the 100% free will goal.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 03:24 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I believe that God has given us all free will in life.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 04:01 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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I believe humans have the POTENTIAL for free will, and that this is developed, and freedom from determinism is won, by knowledge, will, action and spiritual development: however reaching the point of freedom from deterinism is a rarity in the human condition: nonetheless I voted for the "total free will" choice above, because POTENTIALLY humans do have a POSSIBILITY of reaching the 100% free will goal.
My belief is more along your lines, Dr. Farr. Not to delve too deeply on the topic, but my concept of free will (in a nut shell) proceeds as follows: There are predetermined events (1) such as how we are born, that is, what race we are born into, what class and country we are born into; certain genetic expressions of self, though there are some genetic expressions that are triggered by environmental circumstance, which are based on choices. An example of this would be the predisposition to heart disease and a person whose dietary habits aggravate the genetic expression thereof, such as the eating of processed foods. And to digress for just a moment to show a situation exemplifying a lack of choice, many poor dietary habits are a product of economic hardship, resulting in little access to healthy foods.

We also have innate talents, which are very well expressed or represented by the stars, such as athleticism and the making of an Olympian or a scientist who contributes to society a cure for a crippling or lethal disease.

My best and most simplest analogy is the image of a person standing at the foot of a path, or better yet, a person on his hands and knees, with powdered bottom, crawling along. There are also many other paths in the world, but this is the one this man finds himself on in his incarnation. There are many, many diverging paths, some leading toward unknown destinies, some which are clearly demarcated with a view to the horizon, allowing him a crystalline image of his future. Sometimes, while walking along these paths, some paths not taken close forever, disappear under the growth of the forest as time progresses. Others remain unchanged, allowing him to retrace his steps and follow it at another time. But as we travel, each choice of one road often limits or precludes the choice of others. Astrology allows one to predict the probable choice at a given time, but it is not a certainty, and a person is not confined by it. To think otherwise is to do a disservice to one's self.

So, as discussed previously, there are certain confining aspects to life, so there is a finite amount of choices, and because of this finite amount, we can, to some extent, predict the future based on probabilities. But the man walking on the path is not on a railroad track or a light rail, unable to change lanes.

The illusion of the lack of free will occurs when someone or something does something to us against our will. I recall someone rhetorically asking where the free will of a victim is when he is murdered. The victim did not chose to be murdered, so where is his free will? This is a good question. It is, however, looking at one side of the coin. The murderer exerted his will on the other person, violating his duty of care. Free will was used but used by the murderer. He was not mandated to kill by the stars. He is culpable for his choice. This is the power of choice and why we need to choose responsibly. Our destinies are very much intertwined.

Incidentally, this is why clairvoyants have a difficult time predicting the future. It is far easier to predict something that is within a week than it is to predict something years away. The reason is that within a week's time the conditions surrounding the future event have simplified so there are less variables to account for.

Anyway, that's what I have to say about it. I might write something better on this at some future time, when I have the time. It is an interesting subject.

1 This is true if you do not follow the belief that we incarnate based on our own free will, choosing our parents in advance, as well as all the conditions that surround the environment in which we are birthed.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 04:20 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

My simple answer here as I already mentioned a lot in the other thread.

Yin and yang had to be co-exist to be able to create life and maintain life. From the smallest particle atom has both positive and negative charges, to the largest and beyond our universe, gravity and anti-gravity. If we can predict events with time then it will the balance of unpredictable events mostly like outside of time.

If someone said he or she is an astrologer but never had considered the possibility of Free Will, possibility of alternating events, the power of transcendence then the purpose and Value of true astrology is not available to him or her.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 04:28 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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My simple answer here as I already mentioned a lot in the other thread.

Yin and yang had to be co-exist to be able to create life and maintain life. From the smallest particle atom has both positive and negative charges, to the largest and beyond our universe, gravity and anti-gravity. If we can predict events with time then it will the balance of unpredictable events mostly like outside of time.
This is interesting, but I am not sure that I follow. To paraphrase what you said, if we can predict events within time, then a balance is achieved with unpredictable events outside of time? I don't understand . . . .

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If someone said he or she is an astrologer but never had considered the possibility of Free Will, possibility of alternating events, the power of transcendence then the purpose and Value of true astrology is not available to him or her.
I can say this, if astrology is the art of predicting that which is immutable (without choice) then such an astrologer should be able to look at your chart and predict all the events that have come to you within your life and that ever will come to you—without ever talking to you or learning anything about your life situation.

I have never seen that done. Never. I, however, have seen an astrologer look at a chart and predict quite accurately—after learning the choices made by the individual to gain an assessment of probabilities the client faces, as well as inclinations, and then predicting relatively accurately a sequence of timed events.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 04:34 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Zaruthu, I voted for the less than 50%-- I was confused by "probably" and "maybe" and also by how many of our daily functions should be considered.

I have no "free will" about much of the physicality of my life. My heart beats, my eyes are the colour I was born with, I can't control the laws of physics worth a dang, and much of my "schedule" is a function of habit.

This doesn't mean I believe in fate or destiny very much.

Astrologically, our chart says a lot about us and how our lives will turn out. But each horoscope placement has empowering and disempowering interpretations. Unless we suffer from a mental disability or live in extremely constrained circumstances, we have a lot of choice in which interpretations we choose.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 04:45 AM
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Hi,

You can google and watch a documentary called "The Secret Life of Chaos" and read Burnedette Brady's book, Astrology a Place in Choas.

I am fortunate enough to be dating with Ptolemy, he is not active in the forum as he has his own things to do. He can predict events that will shock your heart like the birth of a storm, and other things that I won't be allow to disclose. Also there are plenty of Real Astrologers, John Frawley, Robert Hand just a few examples, these are the two who work for and themselves also are the rich and wealthy, they play with sports and stock market.

If you look into the history of astrology, such as William Lilly that another very good example. I forgot the name of the one who predicted his own death before Lilly's time.

Anyway, you have been eating cakes all your life, there is poor bakers, ok bakers, good bakers, and baker who is so exceptional only the Royal can get to eat their cakes.

Last edited by poyi; 08-14-2013 at 04:49 AM.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 04:52 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Hi,

You can google and watch a documentary called "The Secret Life of Chaos" and read Burnedette Brady's book, Astrology a Place in Choas.

I am fortunate enough to be dating with Ptolemy, he is not active in the forum as he has his own things to do. He can predict events that will shock your heart like the birth of a storm, and other things that I won't be allow to disclose. Also there are plenty of Real Astrologers, John Frawley, Robert Hand just a few examples, these are the two who work for and themselves also are the rich and wealthy, they play with sports and stock market.

If you look into the history of astrology, such as William Lilly that another very good example. I forgot the name of the one who predicted his own death before Lilly's time.

Anyway, you have been eating cakes all your life, there is poor bakers, ok bakers, good bakers, and baker who is so exceptional only the Royal can get to eat their cakes.
Thanks, but that still doesn't explain your statement.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 05:00 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

My statement can be understood by the functions of pluto, Uranus in astrology if you use modern astrology.

When Uranus and Pluto made a contact in your chart when it is stressful usually meaning challenges that is extreme and unexpected.

To apply to our daily life, a balance of everday living involving a garbage man coming to collect your garbage.

Your body cells require deaths regularly to be recycled and new cells can be regrew. If there is no death on earth, it will be out of balance of food resources, various governmental systems, social systems and simply lack of living space which is what happening in our world now, imbalance. When it reaches to a level of extreme on one side "A" the other side "B" must be weaken then eventually "B" will die and "A" will not survive either.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 05:05 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

If you happen to know how to knit or just a bit of a knowledge of it, or just pick up a knitted sweater you have from your wardode.

Look at the front of the pattern then turning it inside out ; there is another not so good looking pattern. Then ask yourself, can the good looking pattern in the front exist and be knitted nicely without the other side of the uglier and not very commonly seen side of the pattern?
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Unread 08-14-2013, 05:21 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...e/mutations_01

Another example that will make it easier to understand why it is essential to have the Unexpected events in life. Although of course we can also predict the unpredictable. Sound very contradicting itself. I do think someone here do understand and I cant help to sound controdicting myself cause butter effects in chaos has to be contradicting..But it doesn't deny the existence of unpredictable elements of the event.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 05:30 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Sorry forgot to post an easy to understand link from wiki about Chao theory.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
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Unread 08-14-2013, 05:45 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I think we have a little free will, as in 5%. Humans are no more part of the universe than are quarks or atoms or bones or solar systems or galaxies. Everything works, and is regulated, according to laws, however much they are/not understood at the present time.

Looking at the whole picture, I dont see why humans have special status when they have evolved just like the greater and lesser phenomena. It is true however, that evolution is the result of mutations, not all of which are adaptive. This inherently suggests tolerance for anomaly.

I am sure that all the elements of the periodic table think they have free will because each is so different from the next, and each "chooses" its optimal state, and each "chooses" who to bond with and the type of relationship (ionic/covalent etc.) they will have, dyadic or polyamorous. They probably perceive an interfering element as a "homewrecker" on account of displacement and perceive the periods in which they function as "soul groups." But we know they do not have free will.

I think, like Dr. Farr, that free will in which ever form it exists is a relatively untapped resource among the human/animal world. This very thread is an outcome of being slave to someone else's statement. Do you ever notice that when we relinquish the (free)will to control, life (not 'is' but) feels a lot easier? When life is difficult mentally, that is normally considered a dis-order of some sort. It happens because there is a discrepancy between what is meant to happen and what our narrow vision has planned, biased by emotional insecurity etc. But most of our problems happen because we are doing them to ourselves. And each person has the power within to balance that out.

Humans are compounded by a myriad of influences. If there is free will the spectrum is small, relative to everything else it is a part of. Although I subscribe to Dr. Farr's reasoning, that free will as a compund exists, I draw a different conclusion based not on 'possibility' but what appears to me as evidence* of 'accessibility.'

* in the mainstream human sciences

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Unread 08-14-2013, 07:46 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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I think we have a little free will, as in 5%. Humans are no more part of the universe than are quarks or atoms or bones or solar systems or galaxies. Everything works, and is regulated, according to laws, however much they are/not understood at the present time.

Looking at the whole picture, I dont see why humans have special status when they have evolved just like the greater and lesser phenomena. It is true however, that evolution is the result of mutations, not all of which are adaptive. This inherently suggests tolerance for anomaly.

I am sure that all the elements of the periodic table think they have free will because each is so different from the next, and each "chooses" its optimal state, and each "chooses" who to bond with and the type of relationship (ionic/covalent etc.) they will have, dyadic or polyamorous. They probably perceive an interfering element as a "homewrecker" on account of displacement and perceive the periods in which they function as "soul groups." But we know they do not have free will.

I think, like Dr. Farr, that free will in which ever form it exists is a relatively untapped resource among the human/animal world. This very thread is an outcome of being slave to someone else's statement. Do you ever notice that when we relinquish the (free)will to control, life (not 'is' but) feels a lot easier? When life is difficult mentally, that is normally considered a dis-order of some sort. It happens because there is a discrepancy between what is meant to happen and what our narrow vision has planned, biased by emotional insecurity etc. But most of our problems happen because we are doing them to ourselves. And each person has the power within to balance that out.

Humans are compounded by a myriad of influences. If there is free will the spectrum is small, relative to everything else it is a part of. Although I subscribe to Dr. Farr's reasoning, that free will as a compund exists, I draw a different conclusion based not on 'possibility' but what appears to me as evidence* of 'accessibility.'

* in the mainstream human sciences
I hope you know this doesn't make much sense. You are comparing non-sentient, inanimate objects to sentient, animate beings, based on the supposition that they are alike fundamentally. Following your dyadic comparison, an atom cannot choose to bind with another atom on a Saturday rather than on a Monday. A hydrogen atom would not choose an oxygen atom over a carbon atom as can a person chose to marry one person over another. What you have here is a false analogy.

Choice can be represented by a series of concentric circles, whereby the more choices made along a certain path, the tighter the circle becomes, circumscribing your possibilities.

Be careful with the words "know" and "believe." I think you believe there is no free will. But you most certainly do not know that there is not. The most dangerous people in the word are those who know they are right. Don't be one of those!

I have noticed that those who tend to be prone to the deterministic view on life, those stoics in belief, tend to have suffered the most, have been victims of some condition or situation. Psychologically reeling from the distress of emotional, physical or financial suffering, they must find a way to alleviate the torture of either their own responsibility over the situation or angst for being in a position to not change their course in life. The solution is determinism. By embracing such a black and white view, it simplifies life for them, places it in a context that is palatable, removing their own responsibility over their situation or making said situation more acceptable. I'm not saying this is you Mandy but, rather, a general condition.

In all of this, where is the proof? Where is it? Show us how many events or situations you (not you Mandy, "you" in general) have predicted accurately, and then show us how many you have failed to predict accurately.


If (a) astrology works and (b) everything is in the stars, then (c) you should have remarkable accuracy, less (x), astrologer error. But if you are a good astrologer, then the error should really be small! And as a poster said earlier, she knows someone who predicts weather, etc. accurately. That doesn't count! Predict the future of a free will agent, and then we will talk. Successful predictions merely reflect capturing the correct probability. You will find that there are a substantial amount of erroneous predictions made by really good astrologists.

Once you do that (not necessarily you Mandy) then people can start using the word "know." But at this moment, it is all a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 09:04 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Very true astrology is particularly accurate when it comes to measuring large collection of consciousness such as major sport events, major horse racings, stock market, weather.

In natal astrology though when it is not always accurate that is due to incorrect birth data. And how much the planets are willing to show you. That's sound odd but it does. In the old ancient time planets are considerate to have their own consciousness. In modern time what is consciousness, is the brain wave, and brain wave is energy.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 09:25 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Choice can be represented by a series of concentric circles, whereby the more choices made along a certain path, the tighter the circle becomes, circumscribing your possibilities.
Right; now go backwards until that circle can't be any wider or looser and the path runs out. Notice that there are no other shapes, just circles. Notice that each circle is connected to the one before it and the one after it. Notice that the pattern of circles interacting with paths sort of reminds you of waves. Notice that the circles are energy and the path is time. And realize that at the root and center of reality is the First Circle, the Beginning of the Path, infinity, manifest and potential, within and without. That is God; that is the Source; that is where all other circles originate from. Circles never end. So we can watch some certain patterns of circles on the path and learn about some other patterns of circles on the path. And we can usually predict future patterns of circles on the path as well.

Your choice is still contained within a circle and is still on part of a bigger path.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 12:41 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Zaruthu, I voted for the less than 50%-- I was confused by "probably" and "maybe" and also by how many of our daily functions should be considered.

I have no "free will" about much of the physicality of my life. My heart beats, my eyes are the colour I was born with, I can't control the laws of physics worth a dang, and much of my "schedule" is a function of habit.
I think its a given that genetically or biologically at this time in our evolution we have no control over the genetics of our bodies like the color of the eyes. But I'm reading a sci fi book right nowby Charles Stross where bodies are trasferred and dissableed and reassembled with alacrity and changed in any way you want.

You can slow your heart beat or even stop it permanently if you wish.

But Bob said that everything we hav e or do is completely pre-destined. Even what you have for breakfast this morning is pre-destined and if the astrology was only "good enough" we could show that too.

I find that I am in both camps. While I don't believe in fate, I also struggle with the FACT that I can predict stuff.

I've come to the conclusion that I can predict possible challenges that we might expereince, and then challenges after that, but that I cannot predict what my choice might be in the challenge. I might with sufficient skill be able to predict the challenge of choosing a breakfast this morning, but not which cereal I might choose.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 02:37 PM
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Phoenix Venus Phoenix Venus is offline
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Zarathu, the way I see it is that predictions aren‘t necessarily a matter of fate or free will…. it’s technically all happening at once.. so it is what it is… “everything at once” should easily be predictable with sufficient brain power… if you can tap into one piece of it using astrology, you can certainly tap into all of it. maybe we don’t have the tools to predict with much certainly at this point in our collective existence (or maybe we do? if it’s all happening at once) but that is just because our methods are insufficient… with the rate of speed at which technology evolves… and the levels of research we could be able to do if astrologers got over that “hump”… it’s not unlikely to think that astrology could not be greatly honed in the future… (which is now)
To answer the op, I definitely think there is a mix of both free will and fate. we are given guidance.. we can choose to follow it or not… we can separate from it, which is what has been going on in this little blip of time….

Last edited by Phoenix Venus; 08-14-2013 at 02:40 PM.
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Unread 08-14-2013, 05:27 PM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

The surviving astrological works of Antiquity were written by fatalists. But even they allowed for what has to be considered "free will."

Let's backtrack a little. Pre-astrology emerged in Sumer and early Babylon, where people believed the stars were literally gods. They prayed to the planets as gods. Subsequently the Babylonians believed that the planetary motions were omens from the gods. Even Homer (ca. 800 BC, centuries prior to Hellenistic astrology) believed that the gods ruled the planets named for them.) In such a belief-system, humans could scarcely contravene what the gods decreed. (See Campion's vol. 1 of his history of astrology and T. Barton, Ancient Astrology.)

The Greeks also believed in three fates (Moirae) who determined the outcome of individual lives. They, however, were not planets, signs, or houses.

So the belief in astral determinism historically derives from a theology that none of us would subscribe to today. (Anybody here pray to Mercury lately?) If you don't believe in planets-as-gods, then you have to identify what conceivably could be the alternative explanation for astrological fatalism. (And no, gravity, electro-magnetism, and other physics explanations simply don't explain horary astrology, or why Venus in Scorpio women are noted for jealousy.)

Then you also have to consider individual life-circumstances that truly limit people's options, but that have nothing whatsoever to do with astrology. A horoscope does not give your sex, socio-economic rank at birth, ethnicity, minority/majority status, nationality, or genetic predispositions (such as eye colour.) You have to get this information from something other than the horoscope.

So life to a elderly female Untouchable on the streets of an Indian slum is going to look very different from the life of a young white American male born into the upper middle class. This might be destiny of a sort, but it isn't astrology.

Ptolemy (the ancient astrologer, Poyi!) compared astrology to medicine, in which a diagnosis of an injury or illness nevertheless allowed the doctor to mitigate it through medical treatment. (The Egyptian doctors of his day were known for their art.)

A common Hellenistic argument was that Fates-decreed events were fatalistic in nature. The study of astrology, consequently, enabled the cognescenti to prepare for the events and to face them with equanimity.

But if you think about it, this belief is freighted with free will! Apparently you have a choice (a) whether or not to consult an astrologer, (b) not to prepare for big events, and (c) to face big events with extreme fear or unseemly joy.

Even in ancient Greece, with its variety of philosophical beliefs, sceptics were all over astrology, citing the many cases where astrological forecasts were mistaken.

My big pet peeve today are astro-newbies who come up with an utterly self-defeating (and astrologically dubious) interpretation of their charts, and then claim by way of self-justification that their lives are scr**ed. But oh, well: astrology is destiny. This is not good astrology. Self-fulfilling prophecies are not astrology.

Let's determine the difference.
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