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  #26  
Unread 02-04-2016, 04:38 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Cool Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Where did this "SECRET ENEMIES" idea gain currency? Possibly an anecdotal observation that became written in stone by those with paranoid tendencies?
Why not include secret benefactors and secret admirers, if secrecy and lack of insight concerning the motives of others is the real issue, as I suspect it is? The House of Cluelessness! Or, The House of Mystery. Has a better ring to it.


Last edited by david starling; 02-04-2016 at 06:12 PM.
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  #27  
Unread 02-04-2016, 08:23 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

David, the bad reputation of the 12th house goes back to Hellenistic astrology, when it was called the "house of the bad spirit," and the joy of Saturn-- a really bad dude back then. It was seen as a debilitating place for a planet because it didn't have a 2- or 3-series aspect with the first house. In the ancient astrological idea of "beholding" from the viewpoint of the ascendant, one of the planets in the strongest first house couldn't properly behold a planet just next to it in the 12th-- just as you can't really see a person right next to you just beyond your peripheral vision.

I am not sure who first associated the 12th house with secret enemies but Firmicus Maturnus (280-360 CE) in book 2 associated it with enemies and slaves. Unfortunately my translation of his Matheseos Libri VIII isn't indexed so I didn't scan the entire book for references to the 12th house, but I came across a reference to Mars in the 12th. Mars was also highly malefic in Hellenistic astrology. Mars out-of-sect in the 12th indicated plots against the natives by his slaves, who would try to involve their master in scandal. Recalling that Mercury rules speech and writing, Mercury in the 12th afflicted by Mars makes for "informers" and fraudsters, giving the sense of deception.

I don't think ancient astrology was based upon observation so much as attributes assigned to planets (originally as gods or omens of the gods,) signs, and houses. Ptolemy works with houses only for one technique and then he didn't even name all of them, but of the 12th he suggested-- as the consummate astronomer-- that it got its bad reputation because, being so close to the horizon, stars and planets were often obscured by haze and did not appear in their true forms and colours. Manilius assigned the 12th to the evil storm god Typhon, known for kicking up dust storms.

The Hellenistic astrologer Joseph Crane wrote that ancient dire predictions were actually "aphoristic" or metaphorical, but I'm not so sure. In Hindu astrology the 12th is also misfortunate, but with the redeeming feature that here one might relinquish ego attachments and find enlightenment.

Modern astrology has a range of interpretations of the 12th house, some focusing on its potential for mysticism and enlightenment (possibly borrowing from Vedic astrology,) and some on the hidden nature of 12th house planets-- which goes right back to the ideas of "beholding" and visual obscurity.

As you know, I prefer modern astrology but the traditional rebuttal to your question about renovating the 12th house would be that bad things do happen to people, so it is unrealistic to paste a happy face on them and pretend that bad things do not happen.
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  #28  
Unread 02-04-2016, 09:53 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

This is all great info, glad to hear so much about the 12th house.

Regarding house systems,

why is there more than one system anyway
- surely just choosing whichever one you like the best isn't the way to go here... is it?

With reference to confusion caused by different house systems
having various demarcations of the 12 House




http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2...e-sign-houses/
As you can see, the ‘cusps’ of the HOUSES of WHOLE SIGN system are actually the cusps of the SIGNS.
So
for WHOLE SIGN HOUSES
any time a planet transits into a new sign in a person’s chart
it is also moving into a new house
.
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  #29  
Unread 02-05-2016, 03:48 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I think it is pointless to promote a particular house system until you have worked extensively with it and other systems in chart readings and can compare your favourite one to other house systems.

The argument from antiquity doesn't exactly hold, because other house systems were known to the Hellenists, and we don't actually know how the Hellenists interpreted house cusps. Angularity was extremely important. The Hellenists named houses in the various sorts of ways that are not very helpful in interpreting horoscopes today even using their methods, such as:

1. helm
2. gates of hell
3. goddess moon
4. lower midheaven
5. good fortune
6. bad fortune
7. women
8. death
9. god
10. midheaven
11. good spirit
12. bad spirit

Vettius Valens (150 CE) gives a quadrant house system that was probably the one subsequently named for Porphyry (3rd century CE.) Placidus is commonly used in modern astrology but it was named for a 17th century astrologer-mathematician, and may have been in use during the Middle Ages. Astrologers of the past specifically developed new house systems as improvements over older house systems, including whole signs.

Whole signs have had a Renaissance of late amongst many of today's traditional western astrologers, and that's fine. But other systems have their proponents and rationales, also.
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  #30  
Unread 02-05-2016, 04:00 AM
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Smile Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I appreciate and trust your research waybread. It's interesting to me that it wouldn't be the lower Houses, "in the realm of the Underworld", that would get the bad rap. The 12th House is where the Sun makes its appearance as it's rising, which would seem to make it Solar, rather than Saturnian. But it's also where the Heliacal constellation was, just before the Sun obscured it, which could account for it's dire reputation.
The title of this thread is perfect--I can see calling it the House of Confusion!
As far as bad things happening, most accidents occur at home (H4) and at work (H10), and most would consider death as a bad thing that happens to people (H8)!
Anyway, thanks again!

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  #31  
Unread 02-05-2016, 04:07 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

David, thanks. If the Egyptian theory of house origins is correct, an astrologer named Joanne Conman who has studied Egyptian cultural astronomy argues that the Egyptians had a well-developed afterlife, but it wasn't really the "underworld" concept of the Greeks and Romans. The Egyptian afterlife was another realm of the heavens. She disputes this, but the 4th house was commonly seen as "the hall of Osiris" known by their name "dwat" (or duat,) which has been associated with the constellation Orion. Note that the bottom of the chart, the IC, represents the direction north, and the top of the chart, the MC, represents the direction south. Orion is one of the northern constellations. The word "dwat" for the 4th house is found on some Hellenized Egyptian horoscopes dating from the early centuries CE.
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Unread 02-05-2016, 06:36 AM
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Smile Re: Confused by the 12th House.

"Standard" Egyptologists claim that the Egyptians believed the Sun-god Ra travelled around the Earth on the Solar Barge, and that Osirus's son Horus protected him as he passed through the Darkness of the Underworld. Horus (god of the Horizon) was worshipped at Sun-rise and at the Midheaven. But Osiris, now conflated with Hades and Pluto, wasn't a "warehouser" of souls in the Underworld--he controlled the portal of rebirth, perhaps this "hallway", which led to reincarnation. It appears (unless you have other information) that the Greeks believed you just stayed down there, and how you were treated was based on how you had lived your life. It wasn't necessarily about punishment, but there was no provision for material reincarnation on this plane of existence (according to anything I've read, anyway.)
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  #33  
Unread 02-05-2016, 07:12 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

The fact is that choice of house system is a clearly a matter of personal perspective
OP of this thread is focusing on "confusion" related to 12th House
and in that regard
house systems appear to be a related issue for the OP
because of the confusion caused by planets occasionally appearing in different houses
- dependent on choice of house system
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

This is all great info, glad to hear so much about the 12th house.

Regarding house systems,
why is there more than one system anyway
- surely just choosing whichever one you like the best isn't the way to go here... is it?
different astrologers use different house systems
- many beginners are unaware that there ARE choices
astro.com provides a choice from amongst fourteen of the more popular currently in use
Placidus is merely the default
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  #34  
Unread 02-05-2016, 07:23 AM
AtlantikaZany AtlantikaZany is offline
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I'm still working the Houses into my own personal Astrological paradigm, but haven't yet gotten a handle on the Nodes. Whole-signs fits best FOR ME, personally. You'll have to decide for yourself (like everyone else!). I'm also personally skeptical of Lore that contradicts my own perceived Patterns and Intuition. I've PERSONALLY labeled H12 as the area of Imagination, which can run the gamut from wonderful to horrific. If you imagine sorrow, misfortune, and hidden enemies, that's [IMO] not the House, it's other factors affecting the quality of your Imaginations.
I also believe Planet (the cause) in Sign (the quality of the effect) in House (the environment in which the effect occurs) have to be considered in combination with Sign-rulership and the compatibility of Signs and Rulers with House environment.
I'm using the Modern idea that the numbered Signs, 1 through 12 beginning with Cardinal -Fire, are numerically associated with the numbered Houses. In which case ANY Planet in the 12th Sign,Pisces, (for example) acts most effectively on one's Imagination when in H12. And, in this example, the planetary Ruler of the sign Pisces would have a STRONGER effect on the Imagination when in H12 than in any other House. The QUALITY of that effect would be determined by the Sign that Ruler is actually in. It's a work in progress, subject to modification as new information becomes available!
I think all of them have weight...to me...when I've studied charts from different house systems etc...they've all ultimately came out the same way, just took a different avenue to get there.
In a basic sense anyway at least.

(Sorry, got off on a tangent there.)

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  #35  
Unread 02-05-2016, 07:26 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantikaZany View Post

I think all of them have weight...to me...
when I've studied charts from different house systems etc...
they've all ultimately came out the same way,
just took a different avenue to get there.
In a basic sense anyway at least.

Exactly
Everyone has their own ideas
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  #36  
Unread 02-05-2016, 07:34 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
"Standard" Egyptologists claim that the Egyptians believed the Sun-god Ra travelled around the Earth on the Solar Barge, and that Osirus's son Horus protected him as he passed through the Darkness of the Underworld. Horus (god of the Horizon) was worshipped at Sun-rise and at the Midheaven. But Osiris, now conflated with Hades and Pluto, wasn't a "warehouser" of souls in the Underworld--he controlled the portal of rebirth, perhaps this "hallway", which led to reincarnation. It appears (unless you have other information) that the Greeks believed you just stayed down there, and how you were treated was based on how you had lived your life. It wasn't necessarily about punishment, but there was no provision for material reincarnation on this plane of existence (according to anything I've read, anyway.)
David, Osiris shares with Pluto/Hades a kingship over the dead, but Osiris also judged the dead (more like the Christian God) with the help of several assistants, and he also symbolized regeneration. He was a crop and Nile god as well as a god of esoteric belief, comparable to the Greek Persephone or Near Eastern Tammuz (Dimuzi.) This is why his ancient depictions were often coloured green. In Egyptian belief, the virtuous dead wound up in heaven amidst the "eternal" circumpolar stars, not in a perpetual under-ground existence. Joanne Conman disputes this, but there is a tradition that the ancient Egyptians interpreted the constellation Orion as Osiris. (D. B. Redford, ed. The Oxford Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology, p. 306.)
http://www.joanneconman.com/

This might be of interest: http://www.dailygrail.com/features/g...e-upraised-arm
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Last edited by waybread; 02-05-2016 at 07:40 PM.
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  #37  
Unread 02-05-2016, 07:52 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

That gibes with my studies, except that the "standard position" is that it was a new and improved material life (reincarnation) rather than eternal life in the Heavens. In either case, yes, Osiris judged the souls (using the balance scale of Maat), and those deemed worthy were granted another, better life. I suppose to an atheist, this would be an H12 illusion!
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  #38  
Unread 02-05-2016, 08:22 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

That there are different house systems at all makes me think that there is a quest to discover the one, true system that works overall, for everyone - is this not the case?

Or is it not so much a collective striving for truth so much as an individual opinion? Reading what I have so far all ideas seem accepted and valid, anything goes depending on how you feel. Are there ever notions or perspectives that one can discount and disprove? Has this happened over time with Astrology? Like for example we used to think the earth was flat, now we know that is not the case, fact. So in Astrology we used to think ... now we can say this method is not correct.
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Unread 02-05-2016, 08:38 PM
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Smile Re: Confused by the 12th House.

The expression "herding cats" definitely applies regarding Astrologers and House systems!
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  #40  
Unread 02-05-2016, 11:05 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

That there are different house systems at all
makes me think
that there is a quest to discover the one, true system that works overall, for everyone
- is this not the case?
not necessarily
that's your opinion
however
a universally accepted astrological house system
remains theoretical

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

Or is it not so much a collective striving for truth so much as an individual opinion?
Reading what I have so far all ideas seem accepted and valid, anything goes depending on how you feel.
Are there ever notions or perspectives that one can discount and disprove?
Has this happened over time with Astrology?
Like for example we used to think the earth was flat, now we know that is not the case,

fact
.
That's a matter of opinion - The Flat Earth Society is thriving http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

So in Astrology we used to think
... now we can say this method is not correct.

One would soon discover
that just as some may disagree with ancient methods
others nevertheless continue to agree with ancient methods
and so
astrologers shall inevitably continue to have their own individual opinions
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  #41  
Unread 02-06-2016, 01:04 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Actually the ancient Greeks believed the earth was round, first theoretically and then geometrically. Which house system is best? What do you want a chart to do? Do you want it to time events? Give a representation of the heavens at your time of birth? Give an accurate answer to a horary question? Be easy to use? Work at high latitudes? Describe your personality and life experience in a way that seems like the best fit to you?

One size may not fit all.

Astrology has many empirical components to it, but it is also fundamentally subjective.
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  #42  
Unread 02-06-2016, 02:20 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Since not all history is written
and also
because much history that was written has been destroyed
not just by wars
or deliberate destruction of some kind
but also by natural events

then
it is not possible to state with complete certainty
precisely what was believed in the distant past

however translations of ancient stone tablets are being worked on currently
and so
history may be updated from time to time
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  #43  
Unread 02-06-2016, 02:37 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I used to be really worried about which house system to use. IT really concerned me. Then I heard Dane Rudyhar answering questions about House Systems in a little Astrology Book Store in Oakland in the late 70's/

He said , essentially, there is no 'exact' time of birth. Birth is a long process. It begins at conception and on the final day, there are several things that 'could' symbolize one's birth. The first time the head peeks out of the mothers body, the first real breath, the cutting of the umbilical cord. first realization of new environment---etc etc.

I remembered back to my two kids and realized it was kind of a judgment call on my part, exactly, which moment to choose. My son kept popping out and getting sucked back in. they needed to use forceps to get his big Aries head out of the birth canal. He did emerge earlier and have a breath outside the womb, but it took 6 or 7 more minutes to fully emerge.

So the worry about the exact house cusps kind of gets lost if there is really a nebulous way of figuring out one's TOB. And I totally agree with Dane that it is a long process, not one moment in time.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 12:18 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Even if birth is "a long process"
the defining moment is the first breath
However, the moment of the first breath is often missed
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Unread 02-06-2016, 06:36 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Even if birth is "a long process"
the defining moment is the first breath
However, the moment of the first breath is often missed
I think that is the point. The 'first breath' is open to interpretation. It is not that cut and dry. Some take their 'first breath' while they are still partially in the mothers body. Does that count? Or do we wait until they are fully freed and on their own?

The difference in time between various interpretations may mean bigger changes in the house cusps than some of the house systems do.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 07:45 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post


The difference in time between various interpretations may mean bigger changes in the house cusps
than some of the house systems do.

That's the advantage of Whole Sign Houses when applied as in ancient times
as elucidated by dr. farr http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...0&postcount=21
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Unread 02-06-2016, 07:46 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post

I think that is the point. The 'first breath' is open to interpretation. It is not that cut and dry.
Some take their 'first breath' while they are still partially in the mothers body. Does that count?
Or do we wait until they are fully freed and on their own?
That's a matter for personal opinion
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Unread 02-06-2016, 09:56 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
That's a matter for personal opinion
Of course it is a matter of personal opinion. And that is why Birth Times are not always accurate or consistent. When watching a natural birth, there are various factors to consider when trying to ascertain when the newborn took it's first breath. Some come out blue and need to be resuscitated. Some need to be lightly slapped awake because they need to be startled to take that breath. Others are gasping and need to have their throats cleared. Some just magically take a breath instantly. Some are 'born' immediately upon being taken from the womb while others need some medical care first.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 10:04 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

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Of course it is a matter of personal opinion. And that is why Birth Times are not always accurate or consistent.
When watching a natural birth, there are various factors to consider when trying to ascertain when the newborn took it's first breath.
Some come out blue and need to be resuscitated. Some need to be lightly slapped awake because they need to be startled to take that breath.
Others are gasping and need to have their throats cleared.
Some just magically take a breath instantly.
Some are 'born' immediately upon being taken from the womb while others need some medical care first.
There is no consensus amongst astrologers on this topic
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Unread 02-06-2016, 10:19 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
There is no consensus amongst astrologers on this topic
Right, exactly. There is no consensus among astrologers about how to determine the exact moment of birth. And that was my original point. It makes no sense to quibble about various house cusps when there is such inconsistency in determine the time of birth.
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