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  #1  
Unread 01-30-2016, 04:44 PM
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Confused by the 12th House.

Since reading about Astrology, by looking at someone's 'star sign' through to deeper learning about houses and aspects, I'm a bit confused still about the 12th house. Naturally I've been looking at a lot of charts along the way and its helped me understand how things work, and has made me see people differently when I look up charts with my friends and we talk about them and if they relate. However, I have a friend whose chart confuses me somewhat, because she is so placid, very nice but quiet. She has Taurus rising which seems very prominent - but the Sun and Moon tightly conjunct in Aries in the 12th which I cannot pick up at all and we've been friends a long time. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? She has 2 other personal planets in the 12th too, Mercury in Aries and Venus in Pisces (which puzzles me more still).
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Unread 01-30-2016, 07:09 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I have Mercury in 12th house too but in Sag and I can tell I'm quiet, shy and my verbal communication is not so good
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Unread 02-01-2016, 08:05 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post
Since reading about Astrology, by looking at someone's 'star sign' through to deeper learning about houses and aspects, I'm a bit confused still about the 12th house. Naturally I've been looking at a lot of charts along the way and its helped me understand how things work, and has made me see people differently when I look up charts with my friends and we talk about them and if they relate. However, I have a friend whose chart confuses me somewhat, because she is so placid, very nice but quiet. She has Taurus rising which seems very prominent - but the Sun and Moon tightly conjunct in Aries in the 12th which I cannot pick up at all and we've been friends a long time. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? She has 2 other personal planets in the 12th too, Mercury in Aries and Venus in Pisces (which puzzles me more still).
Well, one thing to remember is that the house the planets are in will directly influence the energy that they express. With the twelfth house you might get some of the Arian qualities, like independant, and dyanamic but you will also get some of the Piscean qualities such as timid, compassionate sympathetic and perhaps a bit emotionally-inhibited. Another thing to consider is the ruler of both her ASC and her Sun/Moon are BOTH in Pisces (venus and mars). Needless to say your friend is much more likely to portray Piscean qualities than she is to express Arian qualities, especially outwardly and with her friends (11th house). Her Arian qualities are tucked away in the very most private part of her, and will not likely be seen by friends, heck they may even be hidden from herself depending on how attuned she is with her twelfth house, which rules all bed-time activities and dreams, and the collective unconscious.
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  #4  
Unread 02-01-2016, 11:39 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Wow thanks that makes a lot of sense, ha quite a pair of signs for these placements to have working together so prominently in one person, Aries and Pisces. So the sign rulers of the Sun, Moon and Ascendant show... what exactly? How does it work? The sign the Sun is in shows the characteristics of the personality, for example, and then the sign the Sun sign's ruler is in shows how it manifests - is that correct?

I'm now wondering about my own chart, which seems to come in a loop. Sun in Virgo, Virgo's ruler Mercury though is also in Virgo, conjunct the Sun. And my Gemini Moon's ruler is also Mercury. What might that say about me if we were reading from a textbook? And how does the 8th house factor in?

Not only that but the ruler of my Ascendant is in my first house too, seems like all these energies are getting a big exclamation point.
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Unread 02-02-2016, 12:30 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post
Wow thanks that makes a lot of sense, ha quite a pair of signs for these placements to have working together so prominently in one person, Aries and Pisces. So the sign rulers of the Sun, Moon and Ascendant show... what exactly? How does it work? The sign the Sun is in shows the characteristics of the personality, for example, and then the sign the Sun sign's ruler is in shows how it manifests - is that correct?

I'm now wondering about my own chart, which seems to come in a loop. Sun in Virgo, Virgo's ruler Mercury though is also in Virgo, conjunct the Sun. And my Gemini Moon's ruler is also Mercury. What might that say about me if we were reading from a textbook? And how does the 8th house factor in?

Not only that but the ruler of my Ascendant is in my first house too, seems like all these energies are getting a big exclamation point.
Yes, well the sun isn't exactly the personality, rather it is the core identity, and the ego. The personality is a mix of Sun (who we are deep down) Moon (our emotional needs) and the Asc (the role we are inclined to play when interacting with the world). But the rest of your statement is basically correct. The planet that rules the sign of the Sun is going to be the main avenue of expression for the identity. In the case of your friend who is Aries, her ego will manifest mainly through her mars in pisces, while the role she chooses to play (the steady, dependable, loving Taurus) will be expressed mainly through her Venus which is also in Pisces. Curiously (or fittingly) enough her sun and moon are both in the house of Pisces, which further highlights your friend's Piscean qualities. As a result your friend will most likely behave and even relate to the sign of Pisces, however, deep down at her very core she is still a warrior and a fighter... Perhaps part of her struggle will be to attune herself to this very hidden, but elemental facet of herself.

I'll look at your chart in a little bit, but basically having your mercury in Virgo just means you are more likely to act like a Virgo, that is to say being thorough, logical, and intelectually intense. Now having these planets in the eight house, from a personality stand point means that your intelectual core self will be given a Scorpio twist as well. Scorpio is known as the most deep and powerful sign in the zodiac and it is interested in the profound, the occult, and the taboo. No doubt all these things interest you greatly. Having Pluto conjunct the midheaven, further highlights this Scorpio energy in your chart and may indicate that professionaly you will become some type od researcher into mysterious or dark topics. Perhaps a researcher of mental illness or a criminologist or some type of occultist.
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  #6  
Unread 02-02-2016, 12:48 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Hello -

With this post, yoou will hear from the 12th house spiritual juju types and you will hear from the 12th house is a can of worm types -smoke and mirrors. There may even be a few on the fence nebulizers who respond.

How does your 12th house work for you is what you might want to ask yourself.

As for your friend, wait until she gets into a beef with someone and all that mars energy is diffused in mud and yet she still wins her battle. Oh yeah.

Beyonce has Sun in 12th - everyone else is to blame and she always wins.

Last edited by Kitchy; 02-02-2016 at 12:50 AM.
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Unread 02-02-2016, 12:45 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

That's so interesting, how did you guys learn this if you don't mind me asking? Is it mostly solo study? I'd like to learn more efficiently, maybe from a mentor but I'm not sure where to find somewhere to learn properly. I want to be able to read a chart at a level where I'm picking up on all the important aspects.

That my friend is so Piscean really clicks, I feel like I've just discovered a hidden layer within the birth chart - thanks! Yes, I feel very in tune with everything I've read about Virgo, it seems to permeate everything I am (whereas reading about Aries with my friend, the connection was not so clear for either of us, my friend isn't into astrology and I think that didn't ignite any interest where it definitely did ignite it for me with Virgo).

The Scorpio in my chart is something I can back up too, I'm following a fashion design career path but not through the usual routes. Research comes easily and I can be quite obsessive in that area, issues arose at uni regarding the ideas I chose to explore with total honesty, as they sometimes 'weren't very nice' and I ended up leaving to do it my own way (I'm currently apprenticing as a tailor and am totally in my element among the tiny details I'm required to perfect by hand through learning the craft - its clothing the old school way, perfection is the goal!).
And my friend has Pluto tightly conjunct her descendant in Scorpio, is this why we're friends?! Haha!
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Unread 02-02-2016, 08:35 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Roots and natures of the unconscious. The 12th house is very good at confusing people sometimes, because that's what it does.

The traditional views of institutions and things like that even demonstrate how confusing this house can be. This house seems to get away with a lot of things that a lot of other houses can be blamed for too quickly. I think that the 8th house gets blamed too often for these types of things and the 12th house, naturally the credit-or-blame will be hidden.

Just because there may be sacrifice does not mean that it can't work out great in the end... Julia and Derek Parker taught that the 8th house may be the mode of operation, but the 12th house is more likely to be the nature.
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  #9  
Unread 02-02-2016, 09:22 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubyadude1986 View Post

Roots and natures of the unconscious. The 12th house is very good at confusing people sometimes, because that's what it does.

The traditional views of institutions and things like that even demonstrate how confusing this house can be. This house seems to get away with a lot of things that a lot of other houses can be blamed for too quickly. I think that the 8th house gets blamed too often for these types of things and the 12th house, naturally the credit-or-blame will be hidden.

Just because there may be sacrifice does not mean that it can't work out great in the end... Julia and Derek Parker taught that the 8th house may be the mode of operation, but the 12th house is more likely to be the nature.
Beginners are frequently confused simply because individual Astrologers have personal opinions and often disagree

Traditionally,
'....12th house represents matters that are hidden,
restrained
secret
incapable of action or of being fully understood.
It is a wholly unfortunate house, associated with sad events, sorrow, anguish of mind, tribulation,
captivity, imprisonment, persecution, hard labour
all manner of affliction and self-undoing.
It represents places that are denied access to public view
particularly those concerned with seclusion or isolation,
or where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style, such as institutions or prisons.....'


'.....Many sources attribute monasteries to the 12th house as places of isolation,
but otherwise monks and nuns belong to the 9th house which represents religious concerns.
12th House has rulership over scandals generally, personal fears and skeletons in the family closet.
12th House significations include secret, unknown enemies,
such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours or inform secretly against them:
traitors, spies
weakness, infirmity and bondage....'
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h12.html
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  #10  
Unread 02-02-2016, 09:42 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I'm not such a fan of conflating signs and houses. (As in house 12=sign 12) Oftentimes they have very different meanings. Just for starters, a sign shows how or in what manner a planet operates. A house shows where or in what domain of life a planet operates. But your friend has Piscean overtones for the following reasons:

Your friend does have Venus and Mars in Pisces so Charon is absolutely right that she does have Piscean tones in her chart. Also, with the Placidus house system that this chart software uses, Pisces is the sign on the cusp of your friend's Aries planets. So Neptune (modern ruler of Pisces) and Jupiter (traditional ruler) will have some say in how the Aries planets operate.

Neptune squares her sun and moon, which can make it hard for that Aries identity (or any identity) to fully manifest, because the old sea god tends to erase or dissolve what it touches. Just when she thinks she knows who she is, Neptune whispers, "Not that! Not that!) The Uranus square further disrupts your friend's lunar and solar identities.

Then the Aries planets are intercepted, meaning that Aries does not make its own house cusp/s. Intercepted planets seem sort of boxed-in. Put differently, they have trouble getting sufficient traction to fully express themselves.

Then we've got the 12th house. It has several domains, but one of them is the "house of self-undoing." We've got your friend's emotional nature (moon,) identity (sun,) Mercury (thought, communication,) and affections (Venus) finding it difficult to assert themselves in this house.

Kind of a triple-whammy.

12th house suns tend to be rather private. They do best in situations where they can be altruistic, notably focussed on people or causes bigger than themselves. With a 12th house emphasis, people have an "It's not all about you" kind of lifetime. So they tend to excel at behind-the-scenes work, and aligning with a larger purpose in life. This house is also good for highly spiritual people of a mystical nature whose pathway involves shedding ego-attachment.
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Unread 02-02-2016, 10:03 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

JA has given a traditional western run-down of the 12th house. There are many people with a 12th house sun, stellium, or planetary focalizer, however, who do not manifest its dire medieval meanings. You find politicians with 12th house suns who are very successful (like the US VP Joe Biden,) but I think their success comes from subsuming their ego to the needs of their constituents or a greater cause.

One overlap with modern astrology is that the way that our 12th house planets manifest can be very hidden to us-- even though they may be clear to the people around us.
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  #12  
Unread 02-02-2016, 10:24 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

That's so interesting,

how did you guys learn this if you don't mind me asking?
Is it mostly solo study?

I'd like to learn more efficiently,
maybe from a mentor

but I'm not sure where to find somewhere to learn properly.


I want to be able to read a chart at a level where I'm picking up on all the important aspects.

There are multiple astrological techniques
and an online forum is a good place to discover many of these

however obviously
not all astrologers follow the same methodology
but that does not mean that some astrologers are right
and other astrologers are wrong

astrologers simply have different opinions
we all have our own perspective


Meanwhile,
the basics of astrological chart reading are:


that there are PLANETS
and

astrologically speaking

A PLANET acts.


that planet must act somewhere

A HOUSE shows the area of life
in which a planet acts


as well as
how strongly a planet can act







and


A SIGN shows the quality of a planet's expression.






so then

working from that idea
one builds on it




by
selecting a natal planet
then by checking the house the natal planet is in
to find the TOPIC the planet rules in the natal chart
and then
by assessing how comfortable the natal planet is in the natal sign


Traditionally, planets have ESSENTIAL DIGNITY
and
there are tables to assist with that assessment
such as for example
the following table
which displays the DOROTHEAN TRIPLICITIES
and
the EGYPTIAN TERMS


here's a link to another commonly used traditional table of ESSENTIAL DIGNITY OF THE PLANETS
as well as how to read a dignities table
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

That my friend is so Piscean really clicks, I feel like I've just discovered a hidden layer within the birth chart - thanks! Yes, I feel very in tune with everything I've read about Virgo, it seems to permeate everything I am (whereas reading about Aries with my friend, the connection was not so clear for either of us, my friend isn't into astrology and I think that didn't ignite any interest where it definitely did ignite it for me with Virgo).

The Scorpio in my chart is something I can back up too, I'm following a fashion design career path but not through the usual routes. Research comes easily and I can be quite obsessive in that area, issues arose at uni regarding the ideas I chose to explore with total honesty, as they sometimes 'weren't very nice' and I ended up leaving to do it my own way (I'm currently apprenticing as a tailor and am totally in my element among the tiny details I'm required to perfect by hand through learning the craft - its clothing the old school way, perfection is the goal!).
And my friend has Pluto tightly conjunct her descendant in Scorpio, is this why we're friends?! Haha!
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Unread 02-02-2016, 11:08 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Jupiter and Waybread, thanks for the replies.

I am curious what people think about overlap. Astro has a section that says one thing that may overlap in traditional and modern interpretations was "Self-Undoing."

Also, a problem both viewpoints might share (according to the link below) could be "How do you accurately see it's [12th house] territory?" (In reference to both traditional or modern).

What do you all believe to be true about the overlap when interpreting from either traditional or modern in the 12th house?

I provided the source where I read these things.
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgtwehouse_e.htm
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Unread 02-02-2016, 11:57 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I know this has already been greatly answered... but since I kinda know a lot about it having dealt with my own 12th and others' 12th, I'll weight in anyway.

Its where you hold your deepest secrets and vulnerabilities that even you may not even be fully aware of. It's the things inside that you protect with dear life against the world because of fear of rejection. It's also where you dissolve things. It's a sacrificial house: whatever is in your 12th is where you can sort of dissolve them into the other worlds or even dreams or God or anything you may believe in. It's also where you can find your faith because of that. It's also what you may lie about or keep from people whether consciously or unconsciously. That's why it can be your downfall or your greatest strength. And also it can be hidden enemies of course because sometimes people can't trust what's in another's 12...sort of like they sense something about it but they can't pinpoint it, so they automatically distrust you and/or condemn you or talk bad about you. Like for instance, someone having a strong 12th may experience a lot of distrust from others for that reason and end up being victimized by that...or victimize themselves for that.

It's a sacred and very vulnerable place.
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Unread 02-03-2016, 12:35 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubyadude1986 View Post

Jupiter and Waybread, thanks for the replies.

I am curious what people think about overlap.
Astro has a section that says one thing that may overlap in traditional and modern interpretations was "Self-Undoing."

Also, a problem both viewpoints might share (according to the link below)
could be

"How do you accurately see it's [12th house] territory?"


(In reference to both traditional or modern).

What do you all believe to be true about the overlap when interpreting from either traditional or modern in the 12th house?

I provided the source where I read these things.
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgtwehouse_e.htm
With reference to:
"accurately demarcating 12th House territory"
or in fact
ANY of the territories of the twelve houses

then clearly
Whole Sign Houses are the way forward

by the way
for the benefit of beginners
who may be contributing to or reading this thread
The fact is
the house location of a natal planet can change, dependent on the house system chosen


easily verify that fact on astro.com's Extended Chart Selection Page
on that page,
fourteen of the more popular house systems currently in use are available options

and so one may
simply view the natal chart using the option WHOLE SIGN HOUSES


EXPLANATORY ASTROLOGICAL HOUSES ARTICLE http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html

QUOTE

'...In no other area of astrology is there so much mess and confusion than in the area of the so-called "houses".
There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems
or means of dividing the so-called "birthchart" into twelve segments of life activity.
In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains, represent general areas of life activity
and are the grounding areas or arenas of expression for planets.
Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable.
And so a planet in Aries was also a planet in the house of Aries,
[edited quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator]
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Unread 02-03-2016, 12:48 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post
That's so interesting, how did you guys learn this if you don't mind me asking? Is it mostly solo study? I'd like to learn more efficiently, maybe from a mentor but I'm not sure where to find somewhere to learn properly. I want to be able to read a chart at a level where I'm picking up on all the important aspects.

That my friend is so Piscean really clicks, I feel like I've just discovered a hidden layer within the birth chart - thanks! Yes, I feel very in tune with everything I've read about Virgo, it seems to permeate everything I am (whereas reading about Aries with my friend, the connection was not so clear for either of us, my friend isn't into astrology and I think that didn't ignite any interest where it definitely did ignite it for me with Virgo).

The Scorpio in my chart is something I can back up too, I'm following a fashion design career path but not through the usual routes. Research comes easily and I can be quite obsessive in that area, issues arose at uni regarding the ideas I chose to explore with total honesty, as they sometimes 'weren't very nice' and I ended up leaving to do it my own way (I'm currently apprenticing as a tailor and am totally in my element among the tiny details I'm required to perfect by hand through learning the craft - its clothing the old school way, perfection is the goal!).
And my friend has Pluto tightly conjunct her descendant in Scorpio, is this why we're friends?! Haha!
a good book on the houses in general is dane ruhyars Dial of The Houses .
this concept is that houses aere all built on the house before just as there is a psychological growth through th esigns. the 12th house is so obscure because it is where the affect of all the other houses acumalte for good or bad. as th e12th house is a direct function of the 1oth house/MC, all the success or failures of the growth of the culture are symbolized in the 12th.
on a personal level the 12th house is symbolic of those influences that have occurred before you were born symbolically, that is this are conditions that culturally affect you that you had nothing to do with. hence it can be felt as a house of karma. traditionally the 12th house is the place of institutions and asylums. it rules the outcome of corporations.
the point being, the 12th house gives restriction that the persona;l ego can not overcome as these conditions pre-exist the individuals ego.it is the house of least free will..it is the house of accumulated karma of the culture for good or bad.

in your friends situation, you do not feel the double aries because she has enough maturity to realize she shouldn't waste her fiery energy on conditions she can not affect.

rahu
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Unread 02-03-2016, 02:47 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Dubyadude,

Astrology contains the good, the bad, and the ugly-- whether it's modern or traditional western. As we learn more astrology we can become connoisseurs of what we read. Scepticism is an asset.

I scanned the article that you linked, and found some material I agreed with and some I disagreed with. Regardless the contrast between modern and traditional astrology is probably at its greatest with the so-called misfortunate houses of traditional astrology: the 12th, the 6th, and the 8th. In modern astrology, bad things do happen to people, yet each planet, sign, or house has a potentially negative or positive manifestation. The key is to finding and building upon the positive ones. A book that greatly influenced my thinking on this is Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky.

So let's take some overlaps. Traditionally the 12th rules hospitals and prisons-- in keeping with its misfortunate character. I might suggest that a 12th house person work or volunteer in a hospital or prison. It's not inevitable that she winds up as a patient or inmate. Traditionally it is the house of secret enemies-- the backstabbers you didn't know about. Knowing that, the person can resolve not to become one herself, and to be on the alert for false friendships.

Modern astrology is my first love, but I try to inform myself about traditional astrology at a basic level. I was pleased when I read Avelar and Ribeiro, On the Heavenly Spheres-- a primer in traditional astrology-- that about a third of its contents were covered by modern astrology.

Some people strongly prefer traditional or modern. Others are "hybrids," selecting from both.
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Unread 02-03-2016, 02:54 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

There is also a big debate within traditional astrology (not so much modern) as to whether whole sign houses are the best house system. They have the advantage of simplicity and often work well. The OP chart is rather skewed with a Placidus system, which can happen at high latitudes. But whole signs aren't so helpful for timing events directly off the house cusps, and even traditional horary astrologers generally prefer the Regiomontanus system. I think the best advice is to play around with different house systems, and see which one/s give you the best results.

It's not strictly correct to say that at one point "houses and signs were interchangeable." There is evidence in Hellenistic astrology that whole signs was the default house system. However, nobody confused the signs with houses. Libra in the first house was not "interchangeable" with Libra in the 12th house, for example. The Babylonians did not use houses, but the Hellenistic astrologers whose works have survived certainly did-- with the notably exception of Ptolemy. Part of the confusion may be that the ancients used different words for sign and house than we do today.
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Unread 02-03-2016, 10:36 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

To be clear then

Originally

a planet in Aries
was also
a planet in the house of Aries

and


a planet in Taurus
was also
a planet in the house of Taurus

and


a planet in Gemini
was also
a planet in the house of Gemini

and so on

that is the original house system now referred to as WHOLE SIGN HOUSES

where one whole sign = one whole house
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Unread 02-03-2016, 10:57 PM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

This is all great info, glad to hear so much about the 12th house. Regarding house systems, why is there more than one system anyway - surely just choosing whichever one you like the best isn't the way to go here... is it?

And I wondered from reading all the fascinating stuff posted here about the 12th - being widely an unfortunate area, hidden enemies etc. How then to interpret having my North Node on the 12th cusp? And in Sagittarius, this seems like a contradiction.
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  #21  
Unread 02-04-2016, 12:31 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post

This is all great info, glad to hear so much about the 12th house.

Regarding house systems,

why is there more than one system anyway
-

surely just choosing whichever one you like the best isn't the way to go here... is it?
dr. farr studied astrology for more than fifty years - he comments somewhere that he began reading astrological books when he was twelve
but he hasn't posted for awhile due to health reasons
here's dr. farrs synopsis on whole signs in particular
and house systems in general and why there are so many

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so)
we define cusps as "borders" (coasts),
but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp":

it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids)
and the point of a sword


-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something,
and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed,
this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning",
which later came to mean its "border",
ie, the "border" between one house and the other.
And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps)
for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events,
the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results,
among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this:

in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all,
and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT
-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house,
was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses
-each house
-that is the "cusp" of each house
-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.


Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus:
what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp")
in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps"
(sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point")
that are
(and were)
used for progressions, timing of events, etc,
and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well
(in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything,
but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree)
for timing (and other) delineative purposes
.


Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time
-ie, late 8th to early 9th century
-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices,
rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign)
by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West,
and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something)
For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign
-it worked better (FOR ME)
I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is)
or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago:
only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above,
does it work
(producing delineations and predicitions)
better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched;
but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners
-to you who might just be starting out, I would say:
try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
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  #22  
Unread 02-04-2016, 12:40 AM
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Smile Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I'm still working the Houses into my own personal Astrological paradigm, but haven't yet gotten a handle on the Nodes. Whole-signs fits best FOR ME, personally. You'll have to decide for yourself (like everyone else!). I'm also personally skeptical of Lore that contradicts my own perceived Patterns and Intuition. I've PERSONALLY labeled H12 as the area of Imagination, which can run the gamut from wonderful to horrific. If you imagine sorrow, misfortune, and hidden enemies, that's [IMO] not the House, it's other factors affecting the quality of your Imaginations.
I also believe Planet (the cause) in Sign (the quality of the effect) in House (the environment in which the effect occurs) have to be considered in combination with Sign-rulership and the compatibility of Signs and Rulers with House environment.
I'm using the Modern idea that the numbered Signs, 1 through 12 beginning with Cardinal -Fire, are numerically associated with the numbered Houses. In which case ANY Planet in the 12th Sign,Pisces, (for example) acts most effectively on one's Imagination when in H12. And, in this example, the planetary Ruler of the sign Pisces would have a STRONGER effect on the Imagination when in H12 than in any other House. The QUALITY of that effect would be determined by the Sign that Ruler is actually in. It's a work in progress, subject to modification as new information becomes available!

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  #23  
Unread 02-04-2016, 02:32 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
To be clear then

Originally

a planet in Aries
was also
a planet in the house of Aries

and


a planet in Taurus
was also
a planet in the house of Taurus

and


a planet in Gemini
was also
a planet in the house of Gemini

and so on

that is the original house system now referred to as WHOLE SIGN HOUSES

where one whole sign = one whole house
This is exactly what I mean by modern confusion over Hellenistic terminology. Sometimes the ancients used the word that we translate as "house" to mean "sign" but if you read further into these texts (again, with the exception of Ptolemy, who didn't use houses except for one technique) it is very clear how they distinguish what we call signs and houses. They typically wrote separate sections on signs and houses. You will find Hellenistic astrologers today like Joseph Crane who prefer the Greek word "zoidon" for sign to distinguish it more clearly from "house".

I could get into the translations further, but this isn't a thread about Hellenistic astrology. If you have a whole signs reading to contribute regarding the OP, that would be helpful.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 02-04-2016 at 03:39 AM.
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  #24  
Unread 02-04-2016, 02:35 AM
Iced8Ace Iced8Ace is offline
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

I must agree with Kitchy's response -- several factors could affect how a 12th house planet is expressed. Waybread also gave you a thorough run through but I feel the need to add to the discussion because my nephew has a similar chart.

His Sun is at the aries point, his moon in leo trine his mercury in Aries. His venus in Pisces is in combustion to his sun. His planets express in the 12th house and around me, despite the Taurus ASC, he is very much an Aries. I would know being an Aries also -- he has excessive fire and energy but he is meek and shy if he doesn't feel welcomed.

It is in my observation that if a 12th house planet is discouraged, it will become even more hidden, fearing it's wrong doings. The 12th house is a place for service, and the dissolution of whatever planet is in that house to provide this service if necessary. I think that's why we see some successful 12th house people and some that are not -- it mostly depends on their environment and if they were encouraged or not.
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Unread 02-04-2016, 03:35 AM
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Re: Confused by the 12th House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurial View Post
This is all great info, glad to hear so much about the 12th house. Regarding house systems, why is there more than one system anyway - surely just choosing whichever one you like the best isn't the way to go here... is it?

And I wondered from reading all the fascinating stuff posted here about the 12th - being widely an unfortunate area, hidden enemies etc. How then to interpret having my North Node on the 12th cusp? And in Sagittarius, this seems like a contradiction.
There is a really big history of house systems.

Basically, a house system divides up the heavens on a diurnal basis in terms of both space (distance) and time. Different house systems were devised to find better ways of doing this, often as an exercise in spherical geometry relative to the movement of the sun in a geocentric model of the solar system. Some good discussion of the geometric problem are in:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6495552/An...rmulary#scribd

The origin of the idea of houses probably goes back to ancient Egypt, with the mythical journey of their sun god Ra. We do not truly know how they originated but that's a good guess. (See Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.) Their system related to the heavens as their clock and calendar. Ra's journey proceeded in stages called temples, some of which seem to correspond to the Hellenistic houses. Alexandria, Egypt, with its blend of cultures, was a major center of ancient astrology.

Overlaid on this symbolic solar Egyptian "clock" were Greek thoughts about number symbolism and geometry.

With the passage of time, various astrologers worked on improving the sensitivity of house cusps, notably for timing events. The whole sign house system has its proponents and advantages, but using house cusps to time events when the cusps are all at 0 degrees isn't one of them.

I'm afraid there isn't a better answer as to "which one is best"-- despite many astrologers' strong assertions to the contrary-- than which one works best for you-- or for your chart native. Regiomontanus is the traditionally preferred system in horary astrology. Selecting your house system will take time and a lot of practice. If you do not read a lot of charts, you will not develop sufficient facility to make an informed judgement about your preferred house system.

Michael Munkasey, linked above, said it best. The "best" house system for a particular person, question, or event, is the one that best describes the situation under examination. If a situation is best described by the moon in the 8th house, then you don't want to choose a house system that shifts the moon into the 7th or 9th house.

Each planet, sign, and house has multiple potential rulerships that are consistent with their core meanings. To know the meaning of "the north node in Sagittarius in the 12th house," for example, you have to read the chart as a whole. Then you can get a better sense of whether the 12th is likely to mean volunteering in a hospital, solo meditation, or growing personally through coming to terms with secret enemies-- or possibly one's unwanted tendency to be deceptive. Is Jupiter the planet ruling the 12th house cusp? If so, what is its situation? If Jupiter is in the 9th house of religion, then possibly solo meditation would be a good meaning. If Jupiter is in the 6th house of illness/health, then maybe volunteering in a hospital.

Remember, a sign says "how or in what manner" a planet or point operates. It is the "how" not the "what" (NN) or "where" (house). Sagittarius is the mutable fire sign, by nature adaptable and initiative-taking or enthusiastic.

If you find your NN moves into the 11th house with different house systems, see which house seems right to you as you learn more about the houses. Maybe your growth lies in your friendships, for example. Recall that the moon's nodes always move in a retrograde direction, so if it is on the cusp, it is working its way backwards.

In choice-centered astrology, you also have some choice as to what you want your NN to mean-- within the ground rules set by its placement and the entire horoscope.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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