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  #26  
Unread 07-28-2020, 04:37 PM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

https://electoralvotemap.com/5-reaws...toral-college/

1. Maintain American Federalism.

Voters in different regions don’t need to worry that a candidate who only speaks to a small group of states will be their nation’s head of state. The Electoral College forces presidential candidates and parties to develop national appeal by campaigning in closely contested states across the country.



Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
For a very factual, detailed account of the history of the Electoral and Popular vote results since the beginning of our Presidential elections, here's the link:

https://latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol...110-story.html

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  #27  
Unread 07-28-2020, 07:00 PM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbery View Post
This is correct and the most fundamental reason for the Electoral College to remain.

If the Electoral College is abandoned, the entire American constitutional system is abandoned.
It's actually included in the Constitution.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 09:09 PM.
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  #28  
Unread 07-28-2020, 07:58 PM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Just think: If John Kerry had won the Popular-vote in just ONE STATE (Ohio, which he lost by a very small margin), he would have won the Electoral College vote despite losing the National Popular-vote.

THEN the Democrats would have seen the value of the Electoral College system.

Bush/Gore should be listed as having been decided by the Supreme Court, since the final vote-count in Florida showed Gore winning the Popular-vote, and that meant he ALSO won the national Electoral College vote and could have become President. So, Bush actually lost BOTH the Electoral College vote AND the National Popular-vote, and was essentially appointed by a 5/4 decision in the Supreme Court. It was along partisan lines, in a supposedly "non-partisan" Supreme Court.

The consequences: Highly doubtful that a Gore administration would have invaded Iraq and destabilized the entire Middle East.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 09:11 PM.
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  #29  
Unread 07-28-2020, 09:50 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Although it's true that some States get attention from the Presidential candidates they would not have gotten without the Electoral College system, there's also a downside: States that will almost certainly give a plurality Popular-vote to one candidate, thereby assuring that candidate will receive all of that State's Electoral votes, get very little attention from any of the candidates--why waste time and money on a State where the outcome is already assured?

Another downside is, that those who vote for the candidate who ends up losing the Popular-vote in their State, won't have contributed any meaningful support to the candidate of their choice. In essence, they're disenfranchised regarding who gets elected President.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 09:53 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 07-28-2020, 10:31 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Here's something for blackbery: The Constitution leaves the actual method for allocating Electoral College votes up to each State. The winner-take-all method wasn't mandated, it was chosen, and any State can change to a different method.

So, if the idea is to make sure the Presidential candidates pay attention to ALL the voters in ALL the States, why not have the allocation of Electoral College votes proportional to the Popular-vote in each State?

Then, California for example, which currently gives ALL of its Electoral votes to the Democratic candidate, would give only about 2/3rds of its Electoral College votes to the Democrat, and the Republican candidate would get about 1/3 of California's Electoral votes. THAT would make every vote count in every State.

Problem is, this method would have to be voluntarily adopted by ALL the States at once, and that's very unlikely to happen.

Interesting that a third-party candidate in a State, using this proportional-allocation method, could also win one or more Electoral votes.

Last edited by david starling; 07-28-2020 at 10:40 PM.
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  #31  
Unread 07-28-2020, 11:12 PM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

There's been an attempt to blame Los Angeles, California in particular, with illegally padding the votes for HRC. But, that wouldn't have changed the outcome of the Electoral vote in California, because HRC's Popular vote margin in California was way more than high enough without padding it to have given all of California's 55 Electoral votes to her, and none to Trump under the current winner-take-all system. So, very unlikely, as well as unproven.

The more likely States to pad the tally with illegal votes would be those where the Popular-vote margin is small enough to actually flip the Electoral College votes from one candidate to the other by padding the State's Popular vote-count.
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  #32  
Unread 07-29-2020, 12:57 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

"For instance, POLITICO and Morning Consult
conducted a poll in March 2019 that found that 50
percent of respondents wanted a direct popular
vote, 34 percent did not, and 16 percent did not
demonstrate a preference. Two months later, NBC
News and the Wall Street Journal reported polling
that 53 percent of Americans wanted a direct
popular vote, while 43 percent wanted to keep the
status quo. These sentiments undoubtably have
been reinforced by the fact that in two of the last
ITS TIME TO ABOLISH THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE 5
five presidential elections, the candidate winning
the popular vote lost the Electoral College."

Interesting read: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content...al-College.pdf
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  #33  
Unread 07-29-2020, 05:12 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
"For instance, POLITICO and Morning Consult
conducted a poll in March 2019 that found that 50
percent of respondents wanted a direct popular
vote, 34 percent did not, and 16 percent did not
demonstrate a preference. Two months later, NBC
News and the Wall Street Journal reported polling
that 53 percent of Americans wanted a direct
popular vote, while 43 percent wanted to keep the
status quo. These sentiments undoubtably have
been reinforced by the fact that in two of the last
ITS TIME TO ABOLISH THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE 5
five presidential elections, the candidate winning
the popular vote lost the Electoral College."

Interesting read: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content...al-College.pdf
It would take a Constitutional Convention to abolish it. It's actually included in the Constitution!

What isn't included, is just how each individual State decides to allocate its share of the Electoral votes. The current "winner-take-all" system, based on a plurality of Popular votes in each State, isn't the only allocation method available.
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  #34  
Unread 07-30-2020, 12:21 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Due to the fact that the Florida vote-count SNAFU in the 2000 Election, AND the significant impact of illegal foreign interference with the Election in 2016, were aberrations in terms of the matchup of the Electoral vote and Popular vote:

Using the "winner-take-all" method for allocating Electoral votes, the Electoral and Popular votes have yielded the SAME RESULT for the past 128 years. That's barring unique, unforeseen circumstances, which have occurred in ONLY 2 instances in the past 32 Presidential Elections!

GIVEN THAT GOOD A TRACK RECORD, I currently see no legitimate reason for changing the current method for electing a President.
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  #35  
Unread 07-30-2020, 12:58 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Even though the end result is the same regarding who becomes President, having both the Electoral College and Popular votes gives a better perspective as to the "national political climate" the new President will be facing.
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  #36  
Unread 07-30-2020, 01:09 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

In 1968, California's Electoral votes went to the Republican candidate, Nixon, and those of Texas went to the Democratic candidate, Humphrey!

Last edited by david starling; 07-30-2020 at 01:44 AM.
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  #37  
Unread 07-30-2020, 02:52 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

It is really, really difficult to amend the Constitution.

However, state legislators have control over how their electors are apportioned. Most states chose a winner-take-all sweepstakes approach. Maine and Nebraska allocate them on the basis of the popular vote. I think their systems are much fairer and more representative.

There is currently a Colorado case before the Supreme Court on whether electors actually have to vote for the candidate who won the most votes in their state, or whether they are free to choose.
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Last edited by waybread; 07-30-2020 at 02:55 AM.
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  #38  
Unread 07-30-2020, 04:55 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
It is really, really difficult to amend the Constitution.

However, state legislators have control over how their electors are apportioned. Most states chose a winner-take-all sweepstakes approach. Maine and Nebraska allocate them on the basis of the popular vote. I think their systems are much fairer and more representative.

There is currently a Colorado case before the Supreme Court on whether electors actually have to vote for the candidate who won the most votes in their state, or whether they are free to choose.
Here's info on the Maine and Nebraska Electoral voting system:

https://electoralvotemap.com/what-if...-and-nebraska/

Last edited by david starling; 07-30-2020 at 05:06 AM.
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  #39  
Unread 07-30-2020, 07:51 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
It is really, really difficult to amend the Constitution.

However, state legislators have control over how their electors are apportioned. Most states chose a winner-take-all sweepstakes approach. Maine and Nebraska allocate them on the basis of the popular vote. I think their systems are much fairer and more representative.

There is currently a Colorado case before the Supreme Court on whether electors actually have to vote for the candidate who won the most votes in their state, or whether they are free to choose.
The Supreme Court already recently ruled 9-0, that Electors MUST vote for the winner of the popular vote in their State.
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  #40  
Unread 07-30-2020, 08:45 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

The winner-take-all Electoral College system is both non-partisan AND Rural/Urban neutral.

The two Elections that made it falsely appear to be slanted towards the Republican Party, in the 2000 and 2016 Presidential elections, were aberrations, which are highly unlikely to occur again. I fully expect the Electoral and Popular votes to be in agreement in the 2020 election.*

*[That is, IF the Department of Homeland Security, which is going to oversee the Election, is able to perform its job in a strictly non-partisan way.]

Last edited by david starling; 07-30-2020 at 08:51 AM.
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  #41  
Unread 07-30-2020, 03:35 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

LOOKS like a paranoid prediction of what will happen on Election day....OR, is it a real possibility?

http://alternet.org/2020/07/here-are...dhs-stormtroop

Last edited by david starling; 07-30-2020 at 03:46 PM.
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  #42  
Unread 07-30-2020, 05:11 PM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

http://alternet.org/2018/07/reporter...ed-votes-trump

Point is, voting machines ARE vulnerable to hacking. And, the Department of Homeland Security can either prevent that from happening, or....do it themselves!

[IMO] Regardless of who wins, if the Electoral College vote-result doesn't agree with the Popular vote-result, it wasn't a fair Election. Because, in the last 32 Presidential Elections, that's really only happened ONCE, in 2016, and was due to proven illegal FOREIGN interference.* Now, iF it happens again, making it twice in a row, it would more likely be due to DHS interference.

*[In the Bush/Gore 2000 election, once the final vote-counting was finally concluded in Florida, it turned out that Gore HAD actually won BOTH the Electoral AND Popular votes, but it was too late to correct the mistake.
So, the Electoral and Popular votes DID match in 2000.]

Last edited by david starling; 07-30-2020 at 05:36 PM.
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  #43  
Unread 07-31-2020, 04:43 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

We all remember how candidate Trump in 2016 kept telling crowds at his campaign rallies that the election would be rigged. Funny how, once he won the election, he tried so hard to thwart and discredit the Mueller investigation into that very issue.

Now he's waffling on whether he will peacefully transfer power if he loses this election, with yet more re-runs of his charges of voter fraud. Never mind the Electoral College results. He's also discussing delaying the election past November 3.

This is truly serious stuff. One of the hallmarks of American democracy for over 200 years has been the peaceful transfer of power from one presidential regime to the next.

Thankfully, Trump's talk about clinging to power has been coming out early enough that it should be possible for patriotic Americans to prevent that from happening. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R) has said it won't happen. (McConnell, however, is up for re-election in 2020, as well.)

I think all that Joe Biden has to do to win the popular and Electoral College vote is just act normal and presidential, as Trump's loose cannon proclivities are becoming increasingly bizarre and anti-Republic.
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  #44  
Unread 07-31-2020, 04:47 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I think all that Joe Biden has to do to win the popular and Electoral College vote is just act normal and presidential, as Trump's loose cannon proclivities are becoming increasingly bizarre and anti-Republic.
How can he do that when he can't even remember... you know ... the thing.
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  #45  
Unread 07-31-2020, 05:15 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Donald Trump has been fact checked as telling over 20,000 lies to date. If even a fraction of those are not deliberate falsehoods, but merely his being mistaken or forgetting what he said earlier, Biden still comes across like the far more decent man.

The notion that Biden is slipping into dementia is simply a calumny promoted by the Trump campaign. (And previously by Bernie Sanders supporters.)

Biden can be inarticulate. He's lackluster. He'll forget something on occasion, as do we all. But I think most Americans now simply want a steady hand on the tiller of the ship of state, not more of Trump's antics-- which are costing people's lives, with his bungling of the coronavirus pandemic.

The economy cannot recover until CV-19 is more under control.
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  #46  
Unread 07-31-2020, 05:37 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Democrats have to be careful concerning mail-in ballots in States with Republican governors, who could (and very likely will) slow the vote-count until the deadline arrives, and then refuse to extend it, a la Florida in the 2000 Election.

Republican governors will also make it difficult to vote in-person in known Democratic districts. That's just a given.

This is going to be one nasty Election!
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  #47  
Unread 07-31-2020, 05:54 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Donald Trump has been fact checked as telling over 20,000 lies to date. If even a fraction of those are not deliberate falsehoods, but merely his being mistaken or forgetting what he said earlier, Biden still comes across like the far more decent man.

The notion that Biden is slipping into dementia is simply a calumny promoted by the Trump campaign. (And previously by Bernie Sanders supporters.)

Biden can be inarticulate. He's lackluster. He'll forget something on occasion, as do we all. But I think most Americans now simply want a steady hand on the tiller of the ship of state, not more of Trump's antics-- which are costing people's lives, with his bungling of the coronavirus pandemic.

The economy cannot recover until CV-19 is more under control.
The large majority of covid19 deaths occured in democrat controlled states, in a federal republic.

But somehow, its Trump's fault.
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  #48  
Unread 07-31-2020, 06:29 AM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
The large majority of covid19 deaths occured in democrat controlled states, in a federal republic.

But somehow, its Trump's fault.
"Occurred" is the correct word. In June, the number of new deaths in Blue States (with Democrats running things) went steadily downward, and that trend has continued. The Blue States have the highest population density, and got hit hardest at the onset.

The Red States have now nearly caught up with the Blue States regarding new deaths, with the number of new deaths rising sharply upward in those States over the last 2 months. The Red States have the most people refusing to wear masks and avoid crowding together, and Trump is encouraging such behavior. Doesn't he realize he's losing voters???
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  #49  
Unread 07-31-2020, 06:53 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Trump's been blase about the pandemic from the start--no big deal, it'll fade away as soon as the weather warms up. Now, his attitude is that it's the economy that really matters--and, so what if we lose 20,000 more people getting things rolling again to help him with the Election?

It's already understood that he doesn't care at all about Blue-state deaths, but it's shocking that Red-state deaths aren't fazing him either!
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  #50  
Unread 07-31-2020, 08:19 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Dirius, Trump really doesn't care about the Covid deaths. He's not feigning indifference, he really is indifferent.

That's not a characteristic of a good person. Most of his supporters are good people, and many are reluctantly beginning to realize that he's not really one of them.

Last edited by david starling; 07-31-2020 at 08:26 AM.
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