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  #401  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:38 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Because they are trying to prevent his reelection. He had the economy humming along and his reelection chances looked pretty good. Then the pandemic happened and he was scrambling to get things back on track.

This civil unrest is their last ditch effort to try and destabilise the country.

Ironically, it may be helping his reelection chances.
Katydid, I would love to know your thoughts about the Constitution. To many Americans like myself, the Constitution is the foundation of our nationality as Americans and of our government.

Civil unrest and freedom of speech are rights upheld by the Constitution's First Amendment, so long as demonstrations are peaceful. I think it's un-American to argue against that right as enshrined in the Bill of Rights.

You seem to be arguing for repression of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

Donald Trump didn't cause the economy to be humming along. The recovery from the Republican-engineered Great Recession of ca. 2008+ began under the Obama administration. Economic recovery also occurred in foreign countries that Trump could not have stick-handled.

Trump has badly mismanaged the Covid-19 pandemic. He's done nothing useful to get the economy back on track that I can make out. He's basically left pandemic care in the hands of the states. Trump's stimulus money hasn't made much of a dent in the current downturn, but is ballooning the national deficit: something that most conservatives care about.

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  #402  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:46 AM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
It doesn't matter if there were 70 or 80% 'peaceful' protesters. The fact remains that the hardcore 'rioters' that still persist, in Portland, Seattle, NYC , ARE not peaceful.

They are starting fires, throwing projectiles and bottles at cops, aiming strong lasers at their faces trying to hurt their eyes, defacing property, breaking windows and doors in the federal buildings,vandalizing/looting stores/businesses assaulting people who pass by , etc etc.

They shot a young mom in the head because when a group of BLM protesters said Black Lives Matter to her, she replied 'ALL Lives Matter.' A scuffle broke out but both sides separated. Then an hour later, she and her friends were ambushed by them, and she was shot in the head. And died.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-w...ter-supporters

So just because 80% or more of the protesters were peaceful, that does not mean that the remaining percentage is not doing damage.

https://www.newsy.com/stories/police...land-protests/
July 10, 2020
Police blame a small "agitator corps" for major destruction in downtown Portland, Oregon.

"...But on Wednesday, they blamed a small (quote) "agitator corps" for violence, mayhem and more than $23 million in damage to the downtown.

"Aerial fireworks, mortars, M-80s and bricks were thrown at officers as they attempted to get the crowd to disperse, putting their life and safety at risk. Some businesses sustained damages and fires were lit throughout the area. All of these criminal acts put everyone at risk. We want community members to feel free to express themselves peacefully. Some of what I have witnessed tonight by a small group of individuals was not peaceful. It was aggressive and dangerous."
It's not 80% peaceful, Katydid. It's more like 99.9%.

Katydid, I don't doubt that these bad things are happening. They shouldn't be. But in the national picture you are simply cherry-picking-- one small example. I accept the opinion that the government of Portland, and arguable of Oregon, badly mismanaged this situation.

I looked it up: in terms of city size, Portland is rated number 26.

I don't know your age, but believe that you-- like me-- have lived through cycles of riots that somehow calmed down with no destruction of the United States happening.

Chicken Little's sky was not falling. Ours isn't either.
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  #403  
Unread 07-18-2020, 04:25 AM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Yeah - self reported polls over the internet, with around 2000 participants in it, from which 10% of them answered they have "participated" (which includes sharing stuff in social media), 200 participants somehow nets 15 million people.

The numbers I provided are from actual arrests, not data from the twitterverse.
Dirius, Apparently you do not understand how polls work. Polling is an entire academic field of study whose aim is to derive conclusions from representative samples. They're not based on whomever chimes in on a social media platform. Generally a social science poll is based on a representative sample of respondents to a survey, which is then fed into a model and extrapolated to a larger population. These extrapolations are reworked for accuracy.

Quote:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...s-us-by-state/

This is the statistics of number of deaths per state for every 100k people.

New Jersey leads with 176
New York second with 167

Lets check the ones you mentioned:

Arizona 34
Florida 22
Texas 13

Dunno, these republican governos looking pretty good in comparisoin with inept Cuomo and his buddies.
What these high figures for NY and NJ are telling you is that these states were hard hit early in the spread of the pandemic, before anyone knew much about it and before the nation had any real level of preparedness for the pandemic. Also NY and NJ are heavily urbanized states, where population density permits the virus to spread more quickly. (Think about something like a packed subway in NYC, vs. a Kansas wheat field.)

Donald Trump decided against quick response to CV-19, fiddling while Rome burned. He is on record saying he thought it would disappear quickly.

But the pandemic data you posted mark only a point in time. Let's look at these data showing the rate of new cases on a daily basis, because they are your trajectory into the future.

It's important to look at the number of cases beyond the death toll. People who are infected can get as sick as they have ever been in their lives. The more the new cases in a state, the more its number of deaths is likely to increase.

If you look at this map of current CV-19 hot spots, they're in the southeast (largely Republican dominated) whereas the Northeast is adding many fewer cases.https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-us-cases.html





Quote:
Because you are. You are trying to put blame on Trump for covid19, even though he is not directly responsible, and nevertheless had an appropiate response, while you dismiss allegations against inept governos. This is just ideological bias, plain and simple.

The blue states are top of the list on death rates, yet you blame republican controlled states as if they were the worst, while they are actually doing better.

The BLM number comes from the democrat controlled poll stations, from self reported internet surveys. Its a joke.
Donald Trump didn't cause the virus. I accuse him of mismanaging it once it reached the US.

I am curious, Dirius: why are you so invested in being a political reactionary re: a foreign country like the US?
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  #404  
Unread 07-18-2020, 05:46 AM
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Smile Re: Aunt on Facebook

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Because they are trying to prevent his reelection. He had the economy humming along and his reelection chances looked pretty good. Then the pandemic happened and he was scrambling to get things back on track.

This civil unrest is their last ditch effort to try and destabilise the country.

Ironically, it may be helping his reelection chances.
The violence IS helping Trump's reelection chances.
You really think they don't know that?

Last edited by david starling; 07-18-2020 at 05:56 AM.
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  #405  
Unread 07-18-2020, 06:14 AM
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Smile Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

We're all going to believe what we want to believe. No sense arguing about it.

It's like Trads and Mods arguing about whether Pluto is a major astrological planet.
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  #406  
Unread 07-18-2020, 09:12 AM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, Apparently you do not understand how polls work. Polling is an entire academic field of study whose aim is to derive conclusions from representative samples. They're not based on whomever chimes in on a social media platform. Generally a social science poll is based on a representative sample of respondents to a survey, which is then fed into a model and extrapolated to a larger population. These extrapolations are reworked for accuracy.
Yes but the methodology of such polling is flawed because it doesn't take a sample of people which accurately represents the population.

For example the elderly don't use the internet as much as the young. This means polling through the internet will always provide larger representation from a younger age group - which does not represent the % of the actual population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
What these high figures for NY and NJ are telling you is that these states were hard hit early in the spread of the pandemic, before anyone knew much about it and before the nation had any real level of preparedness for the pandemic. Also NY and NJ are heavily urbanized states, where population density permits the virus to spread more quickly. (Think about something like a packed subway in NYC, vs. a Kansas wheat field.)

Donald Trump decided against quick response to CV-19, fiddling while Rome burned. He is on record saying he thought it would disappear quickly.

But the pandemic data you posted mark only a point in time. Let's look at these data showing the rate of new cases on a daily basis, because they are your trajectory into the future.

It's important to look at the number of cases beyond the death toll. People who are infected can get as sick as they have ever been in their lives. The more the new cases in a state, the more its number of deaths is likely to increase.

If you look at this map of current CV-19 hot spots, they're in the southeast (largely Republican dominated) whereas the Northeast is adding many fewer cases.https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-us-cases.html
So? big cities also have larger resources and infrastructure to deal with such situations, more so than rural areas. Supposedly, the best medical care in the U.S. is in big cities, most of them located in blue states.

This is the death rate of infected patients in each individual state, and has nothing to do with population size. It just means that for 100k infected people in NY about 167 die, while in Arizona for every 100k people infected only 32 die. Which is a much better number, almost 5 times lower.

In any case you tried using "red" states as an example of bad management. These numbers disproved your original post, because red states are doing much more better than blue states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Donald Trump didn't cause the virus. I accuse him of mismanaging it once it reached the US.

I am curious, Dirius: why are you so invested in being a political reactionary re: a foreign country like the US?
see what I mean?

Whenever you can't produce an argument, you begins to ask personal stuff.

So obvious and predictable its funny at this stage.
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Last edited by Dirius; 07-18-2020 at 10:50 AM.
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  #407  
Unread 07-18-2020, 12:18 PM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Katydid, I would love to know your thoughts about the Constitution. To many Americans like myself, the Constitution is the foundation of our nationality as Americans and of our government.

Civil unrest and freedom of speech are rights upheld by the Constitution's First Amendment, so long as demonstrations are peaceful. I think it's un-American to argue against that right as enshrined in the Bill of Rights.

You seem to be arguing for repression of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

...snipped for emphasis...

.
I am all for Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly. But I am NOT for RIOTS. There is a difference between the two.

Here are a few snippets of tonight, 7/17/20 in Portland.
https://twitter.com/selfdeclaredref/...92923249991680

https://twitter.com/selfdeclaredref/...21002512994305

maria viti
@selfdeclaredref

"Peaceful" demonstrators in Portland
barricade the doors of the Federal Justice Center while shooting fireworks at the building "


To set the scene for you, about 800 'peaceful' rioters came to the Federal Justice Center in downtown Portland, for the 49th time in 49 days. They have already decimated the outside of the building. Broken the windows and doors. Defaced the entire outside walls, steps, sidewalks, etc. Vandalized and damaged and spray painted everywhere.

Tonight they blocked all of the exits to the building, trapping the police officers inside---then they threw lit fireworks and small explosives at the doors, hoping to start a fire.


https://twitter.com/selfdeclaredref/...20060900134912


You can see it on the page I linked above.

Is that what you see as 'Freedom of Assembly?' I see that as a violent mob.

In ChicAgo this afternoon, 18 officers were injured by a crowd throwing rocks and projectiles at them.
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status...ers-injured%2F


Andy Ng
@MrAndyNgo

11h
Law enforcement protecting a statue at a park in Chicago are pelted with projectiles and fireworks by rioters. They are not wearing helmets


I do not consider that^^^^ Freedom of Speech or Freedom Of Assembly.

Last edited by katydid; 07-18-2020 at 12:55 PM.
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  #408  
Unread 07-18-2020, 01:52 PM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

The entire argument over this thread can be reduced to something very simple:

- A large portion of the people who participated in the demostrations, where violent rioters.

- Not all of the people who took part in the protests were violent though.

- BLM is a marxists movement. They say so in their website. They don't try to hide it.

- Their leaders promote marxists views, and openly admit the movement is marxists.

- BLM leadership justify violence to promote the movement. They openly admit this.

- Their objective, is to change the political landscape, not only of the U.S. but also of other countries (even Japan has a BLM chapter).

These are facts. Denying this is pure nonesense.
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  #409  
Unread 07-18-2020, 02:40 PM
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Smile Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
The entire argument over this thread can be reduced to something very simple:

- A large portion of the people who participated in the demostrations, where violent rioters.

- Not all of the people who took part in the protests were violent though.

- BLM is a marxists movement. They say so in their website. They don't try to hide it.

- Their leaders promote marxists views, and openly admit the movement is marxists.

- BLM leadership justify violence to promote the movement. They openly admit this.

- Their objective, is to change the political landscape, not only of the U.S. but also of other countries (even Japan has a BLM chapter).

These are facts. Denying this is pure nonesense.
Objective: Change "the political 'landscape'".
Strategy: Cause violence in order to help Trump get reelected.
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  #410  
Unread 07-18-2020, 02:43 PM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

The Violence by the BLM from the action of a few racist cops does not justify one billion dollars worth of property damage, numerous people killed, including police officers and complete carnage. The majority of cops follow the law and protect all citizens, black and white. They are wanted and NEEDED in the urban cities, more than anywhere else. Its the gang-bangers and the criminals that don't want police in their neighbourhoods so they can kill, rob, rape and do anything they like without being arrested. The woke, white Liberals go back to their safe, white suburbs after causing the damage & leave the poor, black communities to suffer even more. Gun violence and killings of black youth have sky-rocketed since the BLM 'peaceful 'protests'.

In Chicago, last night, 12 officers were injured when the violent mob threw bottles, rocks, fireworks at them for doing their job trying to protect the courthouses that the mob wants to destroy. Many of these officers come from the minority groups, blacks asians, hispanic. The racist, violent mob were screaming at BLACK OFFICERS telling them they are traitors to the community and an 'uncle tom'. White, woke, Liberals have the audacity to assault black police offers for laying their lives down for them. Why don't these white people get a job instead of creating chaos, carnage and mayhem?

In Portland last night, more assaults on police officers, more rioting, more hatred by the violent BLM.

Trump has offered to stop the violence and the assaults but the woke, Liberal Democrats refuse his help and allow the madness to continue. They would rather have people killed and see buildings burned to the ground than admit they need help from the president. They can't govern anymore because they have turned violence and the BLM into a political wedge. The citizens have had enough. Many of them having re-calls for their inept and woke Democrat leaders.

Democrat Mayor of NY Blasio has to go before the city is completely destroyed.
He's too busy painting BLM murals to care about NY police offers being assaulted with bats and rocks and bottles. And a 500% increase in gun violence in the city in the past month.
Only Trump, the law and order president, can bring safety and security to the people of these urban cities.

BLM just handed him the re-election so they did something good at last.






Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
In any case, violent cops misusing their power, racist leaders, violent protesters are all menacing, insecure twits.
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  #411  
Unread 07-18-2020, 02:52 PM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

You have outlined EXACTLY what BLM is all about. Destroying democracy, creating hatred and violence. The destruction of the family and faith. Totalitarian goals to control the people through their Marxist agenda. Some people can keep claiming that they are a 'peaceful' group but they are wrong.

John Lewis, the brave civil rights leader who marched with MLK to bring about change in the country when racism against black people was a systematic way of life. He HATED violence, as did MLK. He HATED Marxists. They would both hate BLM and the violence and the ideology which wants to destroy American democracy. They want to destroy the churches. Both MLK and Lewis were men of FAITH and HOPE and NON-VIOLENT protest. BLM Marxist violent mobs and killing is the total opposite of what they stood for, he said the following:


"The civil rights movement was based on faith. Many of us who were participants in this movement saw our involvement as an extension of our faith. We saw ourselves doing the work of the Almighty. Segregation and racial discrimination were not in keeping with our faith, so we had to do something."


"We are one people with one family. We all live in the same house... and through books, through information, we must find a way to say to people that we must lay down the burden of hate. For hate is too heavy a burden to bear.
"




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
The entire argument over this thread can be reduced to something very simple:

- A large portion of the people who participated in the demostrations, where violent rioters.

- Not all of the people who took part in the protests were violent though.

- BLM is a marxists movement. They say so in their website. They don't try to hide it.

- Their leaders promote marxists views, and openly admit the movement is marxists.

- BLM leadership justify violence to promote the movement. They openly admit this.

- Their objective, is to change the political landscape, not only of the U.S. but also of other countries (even Japan has a BLM chapter).

These are facts. Denying this is pure nonesense.

Last edited by blackbery; 07-18-2020 at 03:23 PM.
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  #412  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:03 PM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

Is there social distancing during the protests? Where the BLM marched in the hundreds and thousands, there is a surge of people being tested positive.
They won't die but will be listed in the statistics for covid 19 patients. Then the Democrats can blame Trump for more cases being reported.

The woke, Liberal Democrats want to deny that their 'peaceful protests' are violent, dangerous riots which have caused millions in property damage & untold injured and killed. CNN doesn't report any of it.





Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Social distancing is the mantra (besides wearing a mask) during covid. So where would it be easier to social distance - in more densely populated areas or less? So lets us use the two geographies you used: Europe vs. the US and have a look together again:

[]
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  #413  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:30 PM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

Is there social distancing when flocking about on beaches?
Is it correct for the leader of the country, until last week, to have demonstrated scant respect for the doctors advising people to wear masks?
Is it correct for the leader of the country to threaten to cut funding to schools should they notfully reopen? This when the US leads the world in the no. of Covid cases


As to BLM protests, had that despicably violent cop not killed Floyd (just another black life taken by a violent cop), BLM protests around the globe would not have got triggered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbery View Post
Is there social distancing during the protests? Where the BLM marched in the hundreds and thousands, there is a surge of people being tested positive.
They won't die but will be listed in the statistics for covid 19 patients. Then the Democrats can blame Trump for more cases being reported.

The woke, Liberal Democrats want to deny that their 'peaceful protests' are violent, dangerous riots which have caused millions in property damage & untold injured and killed. CNN doesn't report any of it.
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  #414  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:33 PM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

MOB violence, killing, assaulting police officers, rioting, looting, burning down of buildings is not freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. They are ILLEGAL acts which are NOT permitted under the Constitution. UNLAWFUL ACTS are not constitutionally permitted. Please read all about it to understand about the LAWFUL Freedom of Assembly

MLK used the Constitution in the way it was intended and he received the support of the entire world because he believed in non-violence.




Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Katydid, I would love to know your thoughts about the Constitution. To many Americans like myself, the Constitution is the foundation of our nationality as Americans and of our government.

Civil unrest and freedom of speech are rights upheld by the Constitution's First Amendment, so long as demonstrations are peaceful. I think it's un-American to argue against that right as enshrined in the Bill of Rights.

You seem to be arguing for repression of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.


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  #415  
Unread 07-18-2020, 03:48 PM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

NOBODY in the U.S.A. spoke about the need to wear masks. The CDC and the Dr.Fauci from the Task Force advised to NOT wear masks.

Fauci says he doesn't regret telling Americans not to wear masks at the beginning of the pandemic/

"I don't regret anything I said then because in the context of the time in which I said it, it was correct. We were told in our task force meetings that we have a serious problem with the lack of PPEs," he said.



U.S.A. has more cases reported because of more testing. There are also more international travelers. The hospitals get a bonus for every patient who tests for covid 19. Many who died didn't even die from covid 19.

The results in Florida were wrong. There is a lot of misinformation with CNN to try to hurt Trump. He's not responsible for people flocking to beaches or parties or would you like him to send in the National Guard or the Military to keep people locked indoors?

Orlando Health admits their Covid-19 numbers are wrong, saying it shows 98% positive, but it’s actually 9.4%. This explains the ‘outbreak’ in Flordia.”

Florida reported 100% positive COVID-19 tests from some labs. That’s wrong, hospital system says.


Report: Florida Man Who Died In Motorcycle Crash Listed As COVID-19 Death

EVERY study shows the schools SHOULD re-open in the fall. You can read all about them from Germany, Sweden, U.K. Denmark.

The Teachers Union says they won't return to work until there is Medicare for All and De-funding of police. They don't care about the children.


Medicare will pay hospitals a 20% "add-on" to the regular DRG payment for COVID-19 patients. That’s a result of the CARES Act, the largest of the three federal stimulus laws enacted in response to the coronavirus, which was signed into law March 27.



https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/2...al-system-says







Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Is there social distancing when flocking about on beaches?
Is it correct for the leader of the country, until last week, to have demonstrated scant respect for the doctors advising people to wear masks?
Is it correct for the leader of the country to threaten to cut funding to schools should they notfully reopen? This when the US leads the world in the no. of Covid cases


As to BLM protests, had that despicably violent cop not killed Floyd (just another black life taken by a violent cop), BLM protests around the globe would not have got triggered.

Last edited by blackbery; 07-18-2020 at 05:28 PM.
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  #416  
Unread 07-18-2020, 06:17 PM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

The 'diversity' in police brutality is jaw-dropping. Whilst the racist, hate-filled killings, like those of Garner and Floyd have a pattern to them, some officers, in order to 'meet their quota of catching gang members, got grotesquely creative:

3 LAPD Officers Accused of Falsely Labeling People as Gang Members Now Face Charges
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  #417  
Unread 07-18-2020, 08:58 PM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

You are good at picking out the FEW bad cops but ignore the huge #of police officers that are injured and killed by black people. More police officers are killed in the line of duty than unarmed black people.

You and Way Bread keep ignoring the real danger to black men and that is other black men. BLM are not bothered by these deaths either.

2019 there were 9,000 murders of blacks, 7,500 of which were black-on-black,”


There were less than 15 black men killed by cops in 2019.

It's easy to see what the problem is here.

BLM assaulting police officers all over the country & even killing some can never be justified for a few bad apples. Unarmed white men are more likely to be shot by police than black and data bears the statistics out.


There were 55 incidents in which police shot and killed unarmed individuals last year, 25 of those incidents involved whites, while 14 were black.





Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
The 'diversity' in police brutality is jaw-dropping. Whilst the racist, hate-filled killings, like those of Garner and Floyd have a pattern to them, some officers, in order to 'meet their quota of catching gang members, got grotesquely creative:

3 LAPD Officers Accused of Falsely Labeling People as Gang Members Now Face Charges
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Unread 07-18-2020, 09:37 PM
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Smile Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

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Originally Posted by blackbery View Post
You are good at picking out the FEW bad cops but ignore the huge #of police officers that are injured and killed by black people. More police officers are killed in the line of duty than unarmed black people.

You and Way Bread keep ignoring the real danger to black men and that is other black men. BLM are not bothered by these deaths either.

2019 there were 9,000 murders of blacks, 7,500 of which were black-on-black,”


There were less than 15 black men killed by cops in 2019.

It's easy to see what the problem is here.

BLM assaulting police officers all over the country & even killing some can never be justified for a few bad apples. Unarmed white men are more likely to be shot by police than black and data bears the statistics out.


There were 55 incidents in which police shot and killed unarmed individuals last year, 25 of those incidents involved whites, while 14 were black.
Arrests are being made whenever possible. No one here is justifying assaults on the authorities, or the killings.

Just for the record, are you, yourself, opposed to police brutality?
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Unread 07-19-2020, 03:58 AM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Yes but the methodology of such polling is flawed because it doesn't take a sample of people which accurately represents the population.

For example the elderly don't use the internet as much as the young. This means polling through the internet will always provide larger representation from a younger age group - which does not represent the % of the actual population.
Dirius,a good poll is on top of this. They find ways to deal with demographic differences. The problem in the past was that most polls were conducted through land-line telephones. There was a Big Oops there a couple of elections ago when it turned out that most young people did not have land lines, but cell phones. The pollsters have since adjusted their data collection methods.

You can read here about the Pew Research Center's methodology: https://www.pewresearch.org/methods/...ogy-in-detail/ It is actually a sophisticated process that gets a tune-up periodically.

Here is a site for a professional society of polling professionals: https://www.aapor.org/Education-Reso...l-Polling.aspx

A lot of statistics are involved in crunching the numbers, which is why published polls usually give you a plus or minus margin of error.

Then a big issue is how the questions are worded and how the results are aggregated. Suppose I say, based upon recent polls, "50% of Americans think Donald Trump is doing a terrific job." But suppose the question was worded, "Do you agree with the statement that 'Trump is doing a terrific job'"? And the options for response in a questionnaire are "strongly agree," "agree," "slightly agree," and "disagree." Maybe 50% of respondents disagree with that statement, and 30% respond with "slightly agree." Only 20% respond "agree" or "strongly agree." If I aggregate the three "agree" responses for a 50% approval rating, I have overlooked the 80% who are either not Trump supporters or who are very lukewarm about him.

So this is why I would inquire into sources for poll results if something were riding on it.

Quote:
So? big cities also have larger resources and infrastructure to deal with such situations, more so than rural areas. Supposedly, the best medical care in the U.S. is in big cities, most of them located in blue states.

This is the death rate of infected patients in each individual state, and has nothing to do with population size. It just means that for 100k infected people in NY about 167 die, while in Arizona for every 100k people infected only 32 die. Which is a much better number, almost 5 times lower.

In any case you tried using "red" states as an example of bad management. These numbers disproved your original post, because red states are doing much more better than blue states.
Dirius, you seem to have missed my point entirely. Please go back and re-read my analysis so I don't have to repeat myself. You seem to think that CV-19 deaths and cases are static at a given point in time. This is not very useful as we are still in the midst of a pandemic that is now spiking again in many areas, notably in CA, TX, FL, and AZ. At some point we can look back, when (hopefully) the pandemic is over, and see how different states fared.

This is a map of new cases during the past week: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-us-cases.html so look at the trajectories. The "hot spots" have shifted south and, to some extent West.


Quote:
see what I mean?

Whenever you can't produce an argument, you begins to ask personal stuff.

So obvious and predictable its funny at this stage.
I've produced multiple arguments that you either do not understand or dislike to the point that you don't address them.

Big LOL from me, Dirius.
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Unread 07-19-2020, 04:20 AM
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Re: Aunt on Facebook

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
I am all for Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly. But I am NOT for RIOTS. There is a difference between the two.

Here are a few snippets of tonight, 7/17/20 in Portland.
https://twitter.com/selfdeclaredref/...92923249991680

https://twitter.com/selfdeclaredref/...21002512994305

maria viti
@selfdeclaredref

"Peaceful" demonstrators in Portland
barricade the doors of the Federal Justice Center while shooting fireworks at the building "


To set the scene for you, about 800 'peaceful' rioters came to the Federal Justice Center in downtown Portland, for the 49th time in 49 days. They have already decimated the outside of the building. Broken the windows and doors. Defaced the entire outside walls, steps, sidewalks, etc. Vandalized and damaged and spray painted everywhere.

Tonight they blocked all of the exits to the building, trapping the police officers inside---then they threw lit fireworks and small explosives at the doors, hoping to start a fire.


https://twitter.com/selfdeclaredref/...20060900134912


You can see it on the page I linked above.

Is that what you see as 'Freedom of Assembly?' I see that as a violent mob.

In ChicAgo this afternoon, 18 officers were injured by a crowd throwing rocks and projectiles at them.
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status...ers-injured%2F


Andy Ng
@MrAndyNgo

11h
Law enforcement protecting a statue at a park in Chicago are pelted with projectiles and fireworks by rioters. They are not wearing helmets


I do not consider that^^^^ Freedom of Speech or Freedom Of Assembly.
Katydid, if you re-read my posts, you will see that we agree on the First Amendment, and that violence is not protected by it.
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Unread 07-19-2020, 05:00 AM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

Let's do a fact-check. Please refer back to my previous posts. I don't think you actually read my links, although I live in hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
The entire argument over this thread can be reduced to something very simple:

- A large portion of the people who participated in the demostrations, where violent rioters.
Wrong. Most participants were peaceful.

Quote:
- Not all of the people who took part in the protests were violent though.
Correct. In fact most of them were peaceful.

Quote:
- BLM is a marxists movement. They say so in their website. They don't try to hide it.

- Their leaders promote marxists views, and openly admit the movement is marxists.

Three Pinocchios.
This is the "what we believe" section from the "official" Black Lives Matter website. https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/ There is nothing about Marxism in it or elsewhere on their website.

Individual leaders apparently expressed Marxist beliefs in 2015. The platforms of individual chapters may vary.

I think it is fair to call the parent organization's platform radical-- but then radical compared to what?

The First Amendment guarantees Americans' freedom of expression, even when you dislike that expression. Frankly a lot of American university professors in the social sciences and history professed Marxism in the 1970s and 80s. Somehow the nation survived them. And where are they today?

I hope you will read up on McCarthyism in the USA. The country sort of lost its taste for political witch hunts at that point.

Moreover, as you well know, Dirius, the Black Lives Matter movement is far bigger than the trade-marked organization. Regardless of the central organization's claims, they don't control the far larger movement. Many Americans support the principle of Justice For All without agreeing with the need to overthrow capitalism or some such.

Quote:
- BLM leadership justify violence to promote the movement. They openly admit this.
False. I also couldn't find this statement on the "official" website. But of course, there is also an argument to be made against the systemic violence that many African Americans have experienced.

Most people would argue that a police officer handcuffing a man and then kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes until he died is a form of violence. Are you familiar with the concept of "structural violence"? What about the shooting of Breonna Taylor by police as she lay in bed-- when they got the wrong house?

Quote:
- Their objective, is to change the political landscape, not only of the U.S. but also of other countries (even Japan has a BLM chapter).
Correct. Maybe today's "political landscape" is unjust for minorities and deserves to be fixed.

Quote:
These are facts. Denying this is pure nonesense.
Umm, no. You have more false statements than correct ones.

Maybe you deserve a prize for your use of Straw Man debate fallacies, though.
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  #422  
Unread 07-19-2020, 08:27 AM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius,a good poll is on top of this. They find ways to deal with demographic differences. The problem in the past was that most polls were conducted through land-line telephones. There was a Big Oops there a couple of elections ago when it turned out that most young people did not have land lines, but cell phones. The pollsters have since adjusted their data collection methods.

You can read here about the Pew Research Center's methodology: https://www.pewresearch.org/methods/...ogy-in-detail/ It is actually a sophisticated process that gets a tune-up periodically.

Here is a site for a professional society of polling professionals: https://www.aapor.org/Education-Reso...l-Polling.aspx

A lot of statistics are involved in crunching the numbers, which is why published polls usually give you a plus or minus margin of error.

Then a big issue is how the questions are worded and how the results are aggregated. Suppose I say, based upon recent polls, "50% of Americans think Donald Trump is doing a terrific job." But suppose the question was worded, "Do you agree with the statement that 'Trump is doing a terrific job'"? And the options for response in a questionnaire are "strongly agree," "agree," "slightly agree," and "disagree." Maybe 50% of respondents disagree with that statement, and 30% respond with "slightly agree." Only 20% respond "agree" or "strongly agree." If I aggregate the three "agree" responses for a 50% approval rating, I have overlooked the 80% who are either not Trump supporters or who are very lukewarm about him.

So this is why I would inquire into sources for poll results if something were riding on it.
Waybread if you want to believe that 2000 interviews leads to 25 million participants, because CNN told you so, that is your prerrogative. I have no real way of changing your mind there, and I'm not gonna be able to discredit the polling system to you.

Bare in mind though the number is not definite. The number is a "may" - it may also have been 25 thousand people.

So your number is hypothethical to begin with. It is not a certain a number. And with any hypothethis, unless you prove it, it isn't certainty.

However peaceful protests don't end up with 9300 arrests, which are a certifiable number of what happened. These are actual registered arrests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, you seem to have missed my point entirely. Please go back and re-read my analysis so I don't have to repeat myself. You seem to think that CV-19 deaths and cases are static at a given point in time. This is not very useful as we are still in the midst of a pandemic that is now spiking again in many areas, notably in CA, TX, FL, and AZ. At some point we can look back, when (hopefully) the pandemic is over, and see how different states fared.

This is a map of new cases during the past week: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-us-cases.html so look at the trajectories. The "hot spots" have shifted south and, to some extent West.
Covid19 deaths are relative to how the cases progress in a particular area, how measures are taken, and the response given.

Sure each state will peak at different times, however delaying the peak time will lead towards more stability for the health-care facilities.

New york and NJ did a poor job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I've produced multiple arguments that you either do not understand or dislike to the point that you don't address them.

Big LOL from me, Dirius.

Waybread you can't change actual numbers.
Waybread you have this tendency to engage in off-topic personal details which have nothing to do with the conversation. This type of comments on your part is what lead to the thread getting out of hand and requiring moderation.

There is a reason why your posts got edited out by moderators didn't they? they were breaking the rules.
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  #423  
Unread 07-19-2020, 08:38 AM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Wrong. Most participants were peaceful.

Correct. In fact most of them were peaceful.
9300 arrests. Billions of dollars in damage.

Not peaceful protesters waybread - and you have no way of knowing the actual number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Three Pinocchios.
This is the "what we believe" section from the "official" Black Lives Matter website. https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/ There is nothing about Marxism in it or elsewhere on their website.

Individual leaders apparently expressed Marxist beliefs in 2015. The platforms of individual chapters may vary.

I think it is fair to call the parent organization's platform radical-- but then radical compared to what?

False. I also couldn't find this statement on the "official" website. But of course, there is also an argument to be made against the systemic violence that many African Americans have experienced.

The First Amendment guarantees Americans' freedom of expression, even when you dislike that expression. Frankly a lot of American university professors in the social sciences and history professed Marxism in the 1970s and 80s. Somehow the nation survived them. And where are they today?

I hope you will read up on McCarthyism in the USA. The country sort of lost its taste for political witch hunts at that point.

Moreover, as you well know, Dirius, the Black Lives Matter movement is far bigger than the trade-marked organization. Regardless of the central organization's claims, they don't control the far larger movement. Many Americans support the principle of Justice For All without agreeing with the need to overthrow capitalism or some such.
These have nothing to do with police Brutality against black people. These are just cultural marxism political talking points:

- We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

- We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

- We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Most people would argue that a police officer handcuffing a man and then kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes until he died is a form of violence. Are you familiar with the concept of "structural violence"? What about the shooting of Breonna Taylor by police as she lay in bed-- when they got the wrong house?
Everyone agrees George Floyd's death was murder. Not everyone agrees you need to destroy a city because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Correct. Maybe today's "political landscape" is unjust for minorities and deserves to be fixed.

Umm, no. You have more false statements than correct ones.

Maybe you deserve a prize for your use of Straw Man debate fallacies, though.
No waybread. BLM doesn't have a logo saying "we are marxists". They don't sell t-shirts with communist logos either.

However anyone who understands what marxism is will clearly see through it. You can keep denying it all you want, and feel good about it, but its obvious not many people are buying the argument that BLM isn't marxists.

Furthermore there are statements, speeches an articles proving the point.
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  #424  
Unread 07-19-2020, 07:05 PM
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Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

There have been around 14,000 arrests but no convictions for the killings, lootiings, burning of buildings and other property damage and assaults, on police officers and innocent civilians. To ask me if I'm opposed to police brutality is yet another way for you and Way Bread to ignore the real threat to black people. That's other black people. No-one is above the law and I welcome charges against racist cops. I was very pleased to see Chauvin charged and charged so quickly.
Law and order must prevail, both within the police force and the larger community at large.

I also welcome charges against the criminals who attacked people and police with rocks, bottles, lasers, pipes, bats. Nobody is being held accountable. It's like the Wild Wild West. They are being released immediately or being bailed out by woke, white Liberals. Who might not be so forgiving if it was their neighbourhoods that had been destroyed or their son who had been shot by the 'peaceful protesters'.

There is a BIG BACKLASH against BLM rising throughout the country. Their LIE that they care about black people is exposed. More & more black people are fighting back, painting over the BLM murals, signing petitions to re-call inept Democrat politicians who allow the carnage to continue and leaving the Democrat Party which receives a percentage of donations. The protesters are majority young, white males with goatees who studied Marxism in Uni and think they are Che.
The Christian black population do not support BLM which is against all forms of religion and opposed to the nuclear family. Black Conservatives are trying to bring back the nuclear family, not destroy it.

The white, woke Liberals are mainly being bailed out by Wealthy Liberals like George Soros and Oprah or Jay-Z. They may be duped into believing they are fighting for black lives or maybe they too support the over-throw of American democracy. If the BLM tore down the metal gate to one of their luxury properties, they have their own personal security to deal with it. Black people living in the inner-cities don't have that luxury. They want the police there.
The vast majority have a very good relationship with the police but it's the gang-bangers and the criminals who want them gone.

By the time BLM are delcared a terrorist organization, the movement will be entirely composed of white marxist activists. Black people are feeling the movement as much as the wealthy in Chicago and NY are fleeing their cities because of the violence.

‘I think the majority of the US have now had enough of that organisation’, he tweeted. ‘Black people’s lives matter! The divisive #BlackLivesMatter organisation, however, DOES NOT.

Over 70% think BLM have NOT improved racial tensions and now up to 45% believe it's increased the conflict. That # is rising each week.



Black Lives Matter mural outside Trump Tower vandalized for third time

Black Lives Matter mural in front of Cincinnati City Hall vandalized

BLM Mural In Front Of Vermont Statehouse Vandalized


More 'peaceful protests' when they attacked CNN building itself. But it was all peaceful, nothing to see her as the broadcaster fled in terror..


https://youtu.be/Yve9DhT8Nt4





Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Arrests are being made whenever possible. No one here is justifying assaults on the authorities, or the killings.

Just for the record, are you, yourself, opposed to police brutality?

Last edited by blackbery; 07-19-2020 at 07:15 PM.
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Unread 07-19-2020, 11:02 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Black Lives Matter, Marxist?

I'm not surprised that chaos has erupted during this Trump Presidency. He's a nihilistic troll who delights in chaos. He can also use it to his advantage.
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