Anyone on here a Magician that practices Magick?
- Thread starter AppLeo
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JUPITERASC
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conspiracy theorist
Well-known member
In previous discussions with you regarding magic, both another and myself were giving you pointers as to what magic "was". Here's another definition that encompasses what we shared with you, as the other focused on the naturalistic/"scientific" and I focused on the spiritual/non-material with a tenuous membrane between the two inextricably linking them both.
This definition is according to Giuliano Kremmerz
"Magic in all its complexity is simply a series of
demonstrable theorems and experiences with concrete effects; the magical
truths, as abstract as they may be, owe their evident demonstration in
concrete 'fulfillment,' just as abstract mathematical truths have mechanical
applications."
According to Kremmerz, magic, "or Arcane Knowledge,
is divided into two parts, the Natural and the Divine. The former studies
all the phenomena due to the occult qualities of the human organism and
the way to access and reproduce them within the limits of the organism
engaged as a means. The latter is dedicated to preparing the spiritual ascension
of the initiate, in such a way as to render possible a relationship
between man and the superior natures invisible to the vulgar eye."
One must bear in mind, furthermore, that "the point at which the former ends
and the latter begins is very difficult to determine . . . and it therefore very
often happens that both magical directions [the Natural and the Divine]
move forward in tandem."
In the introduction to Evola's "introduction to magic" you will find a developed treatment as to reasons why some people seek higher knowledge through occult means.
Introduction to Magic
Some of the reasons why people study magic is because it is a path to greater self-knowledge, a desire in some to have a more naked and immediate relationship with themselves and the world around them, often through a change of consciousness and communion with higher forces in a more direct manner. Some people are disillusioned by what passes for truth in the world, and they seek to divest themselves of empty philosophies and conventions in order to study something that promises a more direct perception of the world around them.
There are truths that cannot be grasped by the intellect alone. At best, the intellect will give a reflected view of the truth, hence why the intellect was seen as lunar. (the heart is solar and the center of a being. Traditionally the sun was referred to as the organ of mental perception and governs knowledge gained from intensity of direct perception/experience)
Some just want a fun hobby. Others are fascinated by magic as a study of antique cultures. Magic provides a lot of fodder for those with imagination and aesthetic sensibilities. People study magic for serious reasons as well as for entertainment. Of course, many see magic as essentially ********, or conflate it with stage magic/illusionists (which is why Crowley added the k to "magick" in order to differentiate the two. I don't subscribe to adding the k because I think it is unnecessary.)
Magic is as vast as is humanity, and depending on where you go you will find tribal/folk magic that peddles love potions and money serums, all the way up to aristocrats partaking in high magic ritual and collecting magical artifacts that are supposedly passed down by the great personages of whatever intiatic strain they claim they are a part of. In both cases magic is goal oriented, whether that goal be thaumaturgic or theurgic (essentially natural vs. divine as defined earlier). The benefits purported range from getting more money to connecting to higher intelligences that will open you up to truths and knowledge that transcend human understanding, which when bridged/brought back down to "earth" and converted into something practical will result in new insights for the human race or new inventions, or new patterns of thought.
Here is an example of a magician practicing magic. His aim with these operations were theurgic. - The Arbatel Experience
Notwithstanding JA's memes about witches "hexing" trump (here's a practicing witches perspective on that) - Traditional Witchcraft and #MeToo
There are practitioners who are more sensible and less cringey about how they approach the whole business.
And I know you don't like to read all this **** about magic but unfortunately magic is vaster than astrology, so if you're afraid of digging and delving and taking the time to find the answers and making up your own mind, then you will never get anywhere with knowing what magic "is".
This definition is according to Giuliano Kremmerz
"Magic in all its complexity is simply a series of
demonstrable theorems and experiences with concrete effects; the magical
truths, as abstract as they may be, owe their evident demonstration in
concrete 'fulfillment,' just as abstract mathematical truths have mechanical
applications."
According to Kremmerz, magic, "or Arcane Knowledge,
is divided into two parts, the Natural and the Divine. The former studies
all the phenomena due to the occult qualities of the human organism and
the way to access and reproduce them within the limits of the organism
engaged as a means. The latter is dedicated to preparing the spiritual ascension
of the initiate, in such a way as to render possible a relationship
between man and the superior natures invisible to the vulgar eye."
One must bear in mind, furthermore, that "the point at which the former ends
and the latter begins is very difficult to determine . . . and it therefore very
often happens that both magical directions [the Natural and the Divine]
move forward in tandem."
In the introduction to Evola's "introduction to magic" you will find a developed treatment as to reasons why some people seek higher knowledge through occult means.
Introduction to Magic
Some of the reasons why people study magic is because it is a path to greater self-knowledge, a desire in some to have a more naked and immediate relationship with themselves and the world around them, often through a change of consciousness and communion with higher forces in a more direct manner. Some people are disillusioned by what passes for truth in the world, and they seek to divest themselves of empty philosophies and conventions in order to study something that promises a more direct perception of the world around them.
There are truths that cannot be grasped by the intellect alone. At best, the intellect will give a reflected view of the truth, hence why the intellect was seen as lunar. (the heart is solar and the center of a being. Traditionally the sun was referred to as the organ of mental perception and governs knowledge gained from intensity of direct perception/experience)
Some just want a fun hobby. Others are fascinated by magic as a study of antique cultures. Magic provides a lot of fodder for those with imagination and aesthetic sensibilities. People study magic for serious reasons as well as for entertainment. Of course, many see magic as essentially ********, or conflate it with stage magic/illusionists (which is why Crowley added the k to "magick" in order to differentiate the two. I don't subscribe to adding the k because I think it is unnecessary.)
Magic is as vast as is humanity, and depending on where you go you will find tribal/folk magic that peddles love potions and money serums, all the way up to aristocrats partaking in high magic ritual and collecting magical artifacts that are supposedly passed down by the great personages of whatever intiatic strain they claim they are a part of. In both cases magic is goal oriented, whether that goal be thaumaturgic or theurgic (essentially natural vs. divine as defined earlier). The benefits purported range from getting more money to connecting to higher intelligences that will open you up to truths and knowledge that transcend human understanding, which when bridged/brought back down to "earth" and converted into something practical will result in new insights for the human race or new inventions, or new patterns of thought.
Here is an example of a magician practicing magic. His aim with these operations were theurgic. - The Arbatel Experience
Notwithstanding JA's memes about witches "hexing" trump (here's a practicing witches perspective on that) - Traditional Witchcraft and #MeToo
There are practitioners who are more sensible and less cringey about how they approach the whole business.
And I know you don't like to read all this **** about magic but unfortunately magic is vaster than astrology, so if you're afraid of digging and delving and taking the time to find the answers and making up your own mind, then you will never get anywhere with knowing what magic "is".
AppLeo
Well-known member
So, to see if I got this right, magick is simply having a magical truth (whatever that may be I have no idea), and then performing some kind activity based on the use of logic and reason to pull that magical truth down into reality.
So an example would be – Isaac Newton testing one of his theories to turn common metal into gold.
I will put it on my list of books to read sometime in the future.
How are people disillusioned for what passes for truth? What empty philosophies?
What are these truths that cannot be grasped by the intellect alone? Do you grasp it with your heart? Heart meaning feelings and emotions. If you grasp it with your heart, and not intellect (intellect meaning your mind and senses), how do you communicate that truth to others objectively? Grasping a truth without the mind means grasping it subjectively, which means it's not actually the truth.
A reflected view? If I know my laptop is in front of me, I only know it reflectively? So I don't actually know it? My senses and mind cannot be trusted?
Of course.
Okay.
So he made six rituals or practices to talk to spirits. How do I know he's not full of ****?
Well, I guess I'll never know because it's obvious to me that practicing magick isn't required to be successful in one's pursuits and to maintain a sense of satisfactory happiness.
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conspiracy theorist
Well-known member
To the first - Yes. The scientific method can be used in magic. It's how you test what is **** from what has relevance.
The field where magical operations are worked on is "inner". Meaning, a lot of magical practice cannot be verified through sensible observation. How magic is verified is through reports by individuals who have taken the time to undertake whatever operation they have chosen - detailing out in what way they failed or succeeded, how they approached it, what materials they used, what theoretical grounding/principle they used and the like.
You might say that such an operating stance makes any tester liable to making up anything they want, as no one can verify if what they experienced was the real thing. My response to this is that one - it happens, two - there are certain guidepost markers that occur as a result of certain experiences being triggered. A comparison is that the psychological makeup of a human is the same no matter where in the world you go, however they won't all present in the same way. The human body is made up with a "spiritual anatomy" just as much as it is made up of a sensible one, and the two (actually four) are intertwined with one another.
There are those that purport to have the ability to create physical magic such as starting fires and levitation. I haven't encountered any proof of them yet, but I'm open should I actually cross someone who can do something of that nature or along similar lines.
To the third - Take a look on the forum some time. People's paradigms change when they go through divorce, job loss, cheating partners, deaths of close family members, spiritual emergencies, crises of faith, strange paranormal experiences and the like. Oftentimes what passes for conventional ideas surrounding what "life" should be like is shattered or cannot be explained by their previous views on life. Tell me if you want specific examples if you don't catch my meaning.
To the fourth - You grasp them on superconscious/extraconscious levels that can be induced by certain practices. Intuition, ESP and the inner senses are some of the faculties that you can use to perceive these contents that isn't normally accessible to the waking consciousness.
And I did say alone. I didn't say that the intellect isn't used at all - that is impossible. However, the more of your faculties that you have *on* at any one time, the more you can perceive of an object or subject.
One example is - enhancing your eyesight so that you can see ultraviolet and infrared, as well as the regular light spectrum that a human can see. You see *more* because of an increase in faculties while still retaining your previous powers. You expand your area of accessibility, it's not one for the other. This is an example that exemplifies what happens as a result of certain operations - your spectrum of perception/consciousness is increased.
In any system you'll see the importance of the sun in terms of combining the different aspects of the structure in order to facilitate an integrated center and illumination. Examples are the Sun in modern astrology, and Tiphareth as detailed out in the hermetic kabbalah.
As to emotions and there place in magic. You can read this article about that and come to your own conclusions.Magic, Power, focus and emotions
To the fifth - Essentially the problem of intellect is this. Describe to me what sex is. Now go have sex. What's the difference between the former and latter in terms of "knowing"?
Reflected doesn't mean false. Reflected means reflected - a replica of the same thing but not of the same substance. I can tell you everything about mountaineering and one day you might be able to be the best lecturer on all things mountain climbing. But unless you step foot on a mountain and actually begin the ascent, you will never truly have a direct, practical, knowledge of what mountain climbing truly is.
To the eight - the rituals are detailed out in the Arbatel. You can take his word for it or you can test it for yourself. Or you can disregard it out of hand. Your choice.
To the ninth - If that's your conclusion, sure.
The field where magical operations are worked on is "inner". Meaning, a lot of magical practice cannot be verified through sensible observation. How magic is verified is through reports by individuals who have taken the time to undertake whatever operation they have chosen - detailing out in what way they failed or succeeded, how they approached it, what materials they used, what theoretical grounding/principle they used and the like.
You might say that such an operating stance makes any tester liable to making up anything they want, as no one can verify if what they experienced was the real thing. My response to this is that one - it happens, two - there are certain guidepost markers that occur as a result of certain experiences being triggered. A comparison is that the psychological makeup of a human is the same no matter where in the world you go, however they won't all present in the same way. The human body is made up with a "spiritual anatomy" just as much as it is made up of a sensible one, and the two (actually four) are intertwined with one another.
There are those that purport to have the ability to create physical magic such as starting fires and levitation. I haven't encountered any proof of them yet, but I'm open should I actually cross someone who can do something of that nature or along similar lines.
To the third - Take a look on the forum some time. People's paradigms change when they go through divorce, job loss, cheating partners, deaths of close family members, spiritual emergencies, crises of faith, strange paranormal experiences and the like. Oftentimes what passes for conventional ideas surrounding what "life" should be like is shattered or cannot be explained by their previous views on life. Tell me if you want specific examples if you don't catch my meaning.
To the fourth - You grasp them on superconscious/extraconscious levels that can be induced by certain practices. Intuition, ESP and the inner senses are some of the faculties that you can use to perceive these contents that isn't normally accessible to the waking consciousness.
And I did say alone. I didn't say that the intellect isn't used at all - that is impossible. However, the more of your faculties that you have *on* at any one time, the more you can perceive of an object or subject.
One example is - enhancing your eyesight so that you can see ultraviolet and infrared, as well as the regular light spectrum that a human can see. You see *more* because of an increase in faculties while still retaining your previous powers. You expand your area of accessibility, it's not one for the other. This is an example that exemplifies what happens as a result of certain operations - your spectrum of perception/consciousness is increased.
In any system you'll see the importance of the sun in terms of combining the different aspects of the structure in order to facilitate an integrated center and illumination. Examples are the Sun in modern astrology, and Tiphareth as detailed out in the hermetic kabbalah.
As to emotions and there place in magic. You can read this article about that and come to your own conclusions.Magic, Power, focus and emotions
To the fifth - Essentially the problem of intellect is this. Describe to me what sex is. Now go have sex. What's the difference between the former and latter in terms of "knowing"?
Reflected doesn't mean false. Reflected means reflected - a replica of the same thing but not of the same substance. I can tell you everything about mountaineering and one day you might be able to be the best lecturer on all things mountain climbing. But unless you step foot on a mountain and actually begin the ascent, you will never truly have a direct, practical, knowledge of what mountain climbing truly is.
To the eight - the rituals are detailed out in the Arbatel. You can take his word for it or you can test it for yourself. Or you can disregard it out of hand. Your choice.
To the ninth - If that's your conclusion, sure.
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corvidcatharsis
Well-known member
For me magic is a set of intuitive practices that have an esoteric or ineffable quality. The benefits of it I find are much less useful in an age with so much technology than they would have been in ages past.
Some of the things I do with magic are innate. I intuitively know whether babies will be boys or girls. There is no spell or ritual, someone just has to tell me about someone I know having a baby and then it comes to me. I see it as part of a pattern that exists. I know it, I just don't know why I know it. I can be skeptical about it happening again, I can be skeptical about why or how it happens, I just can't be skeptical that it has happened to me in the past.
I also have an intuitive herbal sense. I know how to find herbs, know where they grow, know which ones to put in a tea to help me when I'm sick. I know how to modify, combine and substitute ingredients to create the effects I want. If that's not flashy enough for you, and sound too much like cooking, know that it is like cooking. Any creative act is something like magic. Magic is taking that and making it it's own discipline.
Magic in everyday life is rather prosaic, but you weren't expecting me to tell you that I was Superman, were you?
If I can give you an explanation it's not magic. If it's magic I can't explain it. That's fundamental to the concept of magic. Whenever it becomes explainable, it becomes science or technology instead.
But that's my take on it.
AppLeo
Well-known member
There's 4 pieces of someone in one? Alright.
Pffft... I'm guessing you're also open to the idea that people who claim to have bad luck say it's because they saw a black cat at night, or when they walked under a ladder.
They turn to faith when they cannot explain.
There's no such thing as inner sense. What a load of nonsense.
Yeah, if you're wearing some kind of eye technology...
Still makes no sense to me.
Too long for me to read at the moment, so maybe later.
But I don't think it applies. At least for the Gemini part, when someone explains to me what being a Doctor is or what a Fisherman is, I have a pretty good idea of what I will be doing if I choose to do something like a doctor or fisherman. But a magician? If I tried to be a magician, which I have no idea how or what it looks like, I don't even know what I'd be doing, why I'd be doing, or what the purpose of it is.
Disregarding...
Alright.
Just forget it, no use trying to explain to me when I'm never going to accept it. From what I've learned, anything based on faith or irrationality shouldn't be practiced or indulged.
AppLeo
Well-known member
I don't believe you. No one has intuition. They know things based on senses, or they get lucky.
And it's seems that you're replacing simple knowledge and understanding with magick even though there's nothing magical about it.
AppLeo
Well-known member
It was out of curiousity in the beginning.
Quantum physics is an actual thing. Magic is just some unknown spiritual mysticism in the darkness that magicians claim to be a thing.
conspiracy theorist
Well-known member
Post #7
To the first - Yes.
The four bodies I refer to are related to the four worlds of the kabbalah - Assiah (Earth), Yetzirah (air), Briah (water), Atziluth (fire).
For more information on this, here is something for you to peruse the four worlds
Other instances of occult anatomy that are more easily accessible are the chakra system and the dantien (sea of qi), which comes from the eastern traditions.
There is a lot of work done on the occult anatomy and how to properly care for and to strengthen each aspect of your bodies.
One example is in the french occult scene in the 19th century when Papus and Co. were running around. A lot of work was done on animal magnetism and the healing effects it had on physical ailments.
And of course acupuncture and reiki.
To the second - Please.
To the third - Who said anything about faith? These things can be verified.
To the fourth - have you done any research or testing on what I said?
To the fifth - I see the analogy escaped you.
To the seventh - You've been given enough starting points to figure out what magicians do and how they look.
To the ninth - Who said anything about irrationality or faith? Did you actually read anything that was stated, or are you going on an outmoded program of what magic is "supposed" to be?
Anyway, you've made your bed so I can't stop you from laying in it.
To the first - Yes.
The four bodies I refer to are related to the four worlds of the kabbalah - Assiah (Earth), Yetzirah (air), Briah (water), Atziluth (fire).
For more information on this, here is something for you to peruse the four worlds
Other instances of occult anatomy that are more easily accessible are the chakra system and the dantien (sea of qi), which comes from the eastern traditions.
There is a lot of work done on the occult anatomy and how to properly care for and to strengthen each aspect of your bodies.
One example is in the french occult scene in the 19th century when Papus and Co. were running around. A lot of work was done on animal magnetism and the healing effects it had on physical ailments.
And of course acupuncture and reiki.
To the second - Please.
To the third - Who said anything about faith? These things can be verified.
To the fourth - have you done any research or testing on what I said?
To the fifth - I see the analogy escaped you.
To the seventh - You've been given enough starting points to figure out what magicians do and how they look.
To the ninth - Who said anything about irrationality or faith? Did you actually read anything that was stated, or are you going on an outmoded program of what magic is "supposed" to be?
Anyway, you've made your bed so I can't stop you from laying in it.
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Lykanized
Well-known member
Magic really isn't mystical at all. You've probably used it without knowing you were. And since we're on the topic of quantum physics now... I wonder why quantum physics has hit a huge brick wall. A huge one. It won't be very long now until the West finally figures out how limited science is in its attempts to calculate the incalculable
Think about the fact the West's roots are a lot younger than the traditions of various native peoples. Yet we have this silly idea that the West is more advanced and the East, African tribes, Native Americans are primitive because they don't have technology and science at the same capacity as us
The problem is, you're very absorbed in the mindset you were taught, but at some point you realize all you were taught might not be true and that's uncomfortable so you wanna avoid it and deny it. Why are some people so certain there's nothing more to this world than what you can taste, touch, hear, etc. just because that's the box they were put into?
Think about the fact the West's roots are a lot younger than the traditions of various native peoples. Yet we have this silly idea that the West is more advanced and the East, African tribes, Native Americans are primitive because they don't have technology and science at the same capacity as us
The problem is, you're very absorbed in the mindset you were taught, but at some point you realize all you were taught might not be true and that's uncomfortable so you wanna avoid it and deny it. Why are some people so certain there's nothing more to this world than what you can taste, touch, hear, etc. just because that's the box they were put into?
AppLeo
Well-known member
The reason why tribes or primitive people stay primitive is because they’ve never used western principles to create technology.
And it’s not that I think there’s nothing beyond this world that we know. I just refuse to believe in anything that hasn’t been discovered yet. You have to take what you know and then build upon it. You can’t just believe in a truth at the end by jumping over all of the information in between because then you risk believing something that isn’t true and even if it is true, no one else can or will bother to understand it.
And it’s not that I think there’s nothing beyond this world that we know. I just refuse to believe in anything that hasn’t been discovered yet. You have to take what you know and then build upon it. You can’t just believe in a truth at the end by jumping over all of the information in between because then you risk believing something that isn’t true and even if it is true, no one else can or will bother to understand it.
conspiracy theorist
Well-known member
The Chinese and Russians disagree with you.
AppLeo
Well-known member
thank you captain obvious
conspiracy theorist
Well-known member
I wonder why you didn't respond that way with my first three posts in this thread. Trying to score some points?
AppLeo
Well-known member
not trying to score anything
conspiracy theorist
Well-known member
Anyway, there's enough information in this thread that anyone who is intrigued by magic can begin the investigation process. I'm out.