Will Trump lose the US election?

Aquarius358

Well-known member
Waybread is correct, in that a horary question about a lofty, public event like, who will win the U.S. election. is simply out of bounds for a "self-serve" chart, unless you ARE TRUMP, one of his inner circle or family members, his campaign manager, or, have some direct, emotional stake in the question asked. ...
No, this is not a 'self serve' chart - that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but it's wrong. Read Lilly and Bonatti and the many charts done for this type of question. Murder cases or missing persons are other examples.

...
Aquarius 358, have you ever read the classic text, Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events ?. Author Barbara Hunt Watters makes the case that most querents ask the silliest of horary questions and, in most cases, a silly question always gets a dubious answer.

Yes. I have a copy of her book. I'm sorry you seem to be saying that my question (which was being asked on TV at the time by a panel of political commentators and prompted me to put up the question that at least a couple of million people would have been hearing and therefore thinking about) is the 'silliest of horary questions' That's an awfully long bow, linking my chart with Watters' very valid point. Simply not connected! I do agree with her that "silly" querents with "silly questions" are to be avoided. I do strongly dispute your linking my specific question with her general comment.

Assuming that you place Mars and Venus as the significators, both Mars and Venus are debilitated, here. Mars is afflicted by Moon, but Venus (ruling Clinton) is in the 2nd house of Clinton's finances, squaring Neptune (ruler of her turned 6th house of health). Some would say peregrine and makes no ptolemaic aspects.

This denotes a deceitful woman, (Venus square Neptune) someone who would say anything to get elected, and who is rather dishonest with matters pertaining to her health (6th house) and her finances (2nd house).
The horary was not about Clinton's finances - just, rather, would Trump lose and not get the job. There are not enough positive testimonies by way of aspect to say he will. I asked a question prefaced by "Will he ..." not "Should he ..."

...
In spite of all these things, I will give Trump the nod to win the election. But, with Moons last aspect being a square with Sun in Libra,
With respect, the Moon signifies the people in these kinds of charts about 'preferments.' The Moon / the people are not applying for this job - only L1 or L7.

... this suggests that the win will not be a happy ending for whoever wins all the marbles. That would suggest either marital strife for Trump, and or serious legal problems for him, or something quite unprecedented !
Again, this was not in my remit. The question was "Will Trump lose?"

...

Thanks for your feedback and thoughts.
M.
 

Aquarius358

Well-known member
You can't really do a horary on a big question that many people would be asking, because each would note her own time and location, and these would give different answers. There is some mundane astrology and natal chart interpretation out there that might give better answers.

From what I've seen, most astrologers favour Clinton, a few favour Trump, and some think the outcome will be ambiguous.

This thread http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97687 deals with the astrology of the election, vs. the "chat" types of threads on this forum.

I beg to differ with what you've said : that I "... can't really do a horary on a big question etc" - Yes I can! and you can too. Just consider all the questions about murders, missing persons, Lilly's and Bonatti's and many authentic horary astrologers' questions about getting important positions in church or govt.

Any horary for any time has the potential to be read if the Astrologer and the querent have positive (and serious) motivation and sufficient technique.

I put up this question at the time it was being asked on a political discussion panel and therefore a couple of million people were thinking the same question. I do this for elections here in Australia, too, and have been correct in my predictions every time - except one in the case of a Governor General being elected (but I'd only just started doing Horary astrology when I put that one up!)

Thanks for your comments though.
M.
 

Dr.Time

Well-known member
Astrology aside for just one second, a lot of political pundits like Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk etc, as well as some progressive news outlets exluding TYT are saying that this election is too difficult to call because of the overall unpredictability of events unfolding. But they kind of feel Hillary will win, but that it'd be a very CLOSE race.

Polls already indicating Trump will win a lot of key states. Will be interesting to see.
 

Aquarius358

Well-known member
Venus does conjunct Saturn, so you may think Venus wins. Venus has lots of support, there is mutual reception with Jup and Saturn ruled by Jup. But Mars is essentially and accidentally strong and it also aspects Saturn! By Antiscia, its actually conjuncts it. So even though it looks like Venus may win, Mars may get there through something hidden.

Jupiter ruling the 9th, shows perhaps a foreign country helping Venus, I've heard Clinton getting financial support from middle eastern countries for her presidency. Also Trump is said to be helped by Russia, so we need to figure out who Venus is here.

Mars is stronger, by itself, Venus has the support from a great benefic... hmmm

here is another thread on this. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86635&highlight=trump

edit: Been thinking more about exalted Mars. A planet in its own exaltation puts itself on pedestal, makes itself look bigger better more capable. Who has done it? Trump. Whilst Moon, the public is in fall of Mars, its also in triplicity of Mars, so this shows they dislike him, but they like him too. there is division. Moon is only in face of Venus and inconjuncts Venus. Moon is not interested in Venus, and have a love/hate relationship with Mars. Also Venus in 9th, aspecting the 9th ruler may show support from media and other associates. Clinton has wall street, banks, media supporting her. The public don't really want her.

SO this is going to be interesting to watch over the next week. I don't really see a clear winner in this chart, but my money is on Mars in this chart. Mars is so much stronger.

Thanks, Rafaella - especially for pointing out the antiscion of Saturn at 16Cap40 to which Mars applies to conjoin. I forgot to check them ... !!

On balance, I still think Venus has more going for her than Mars though, in this chart.

If we consider Mercury which is in the 7th to signify her, then she's applying to the Sun, the position of power. This offsets (to my mind) the close conjoining of Mars with L10's antiscion. Both of them apply to the position with equal ability.

Mars and Venus are also equal in dignity. One is not stronger than the other so we can't call it one way or another just looking at dignity.

Next, the Moon. In answer to the question "Will Trump Lose?" the answer has to be "Yes" because the Moon opposes him. It doesn't have a friendly aspect to him or leave him alone even - as it does Venus. The Moon signifies the people in these sorts of questions and the action as it normally does. It doesn't co-signify L1.

That leaves L7 Venus with all the rest of it - the mutual reception with someone or something of great power and influence (Jupiter) in her house, the 7th.

Also, Fortuna is disposed by Jupiter - in the 7th House by the 5 degree rule. An additional positive for L7 because of the reception. L1 Trump doesn't have Fortuna because he doesn't apply to it or its dispositor.

Venus does apply by sextile to Jupiter. The Fortune is hers. She will defeat her opponent. L1 Trump doesn't have that.

Then there's Mercury (Clinton's alternative signifier) - it applies by partile degree to Fortuna, too (just separated by minutes). Trump has no alternative and Mars has separated - i.e. moved away from Fortuna. It's not going to help him.

So that's kind of why I'm holding on to my original judgment! Mainly because of Jupiter and Fortuna and Venus applying to L10.

Thanks again for your input! Good stuff.
M.
 

RaRohini

Well-known member
Today morning there were a couple of crows on my porch. Heralding the coming of Leo Magha nakshtra which is Trump's ascendant !!
 

rafaella

Well-known member
Thanks, Rafaella - especially for pointing out the antiscion of Saturn at 16Cap40 to which Mars applies to conjoin. I forgot to check them ... !!

On balance, I still think Venus has more going for her than Mars though, in this chart.

If we consider Mercury which is in the 7th to signify her, then she's applying to the Sun, the position of power. This offsets (to my mind) the close conjoining of Mars with L10's antiscion. Both of them apply to the position with equal ability.

Mars and Venus are also equal in dignity. One is not stronger than the other so we can't call it one way or another just looking at dignity.

Next, the Moon. In answer to the question "Will Trump Lose?" the answer has to be "Yes" because the Moon opposes him. It doesn't have a friendly aspect to him or leave him alone even - as it does Venus. The Moon signifies the people in these sorts of questions and the action as it normally does. It doesn't co-signify L1.

That leaves L7 Venus with all the rest of it - the mutual reception with someone or something of great power and influence (Jupiter) in her house, the 7th.

Also, Fortuna is disposed by Jupiter - in the 7th House by the 5 degree rule. An additional positive for L7 because of the reception. L1 Trump doesn't have Fortuna because he doesn't apply to it or its dispositor.

Venus does apply by sextile to Jupiter. The Fortune is hers. She will defeat her opponent. L1 Trump doesn't have that.

Then there's Mercury (Clinton's alternative signifier) - it applies by partile degree to Fortuna, too (just separated by minutes). Trump has no alternative and Mars has separated - i.e. moved away from Fortuna. It's not going to help him.

So that's kind of why I'm holding on to my original judgment! Mainly because of Jupiter and Fortuna and Venus applying to L10.

Thanks again for your input! Good stuff.
M.

Good chart to learn from! I think using planets in the house of the querent/quesited will bring wrong judgement, I wouldn't use Mercury to signify Hillary. She is Venus, Trump is Mars. Who is stronger in this chart, is the person who wins. Plus Mars conjunct Saturn by antiscia, and guess what... no one saw this coming, all celebrities, media, banks etc were behind Hillary, she was very certain of victory. So antiscia makes sense because Trump won without this being obvious. His support was hidden, (just like Brexit support for a leave vote was not seen). All the polls showed Hillary victory.

Many astrologers got it wrong as well, including Nina Gryphon http://www.ninagryphon.com/astrology-of-the-2016-presidential-election/

Her article appeared in Mountain Astrologer, she used a different technique - Aries Ingress, check out the link. I looked at the chart and her conclusions in disbelief...how can she say Mercury is going to win when its clearly debilitated, more than Jupiter! And how can a debilitated Jupiter help 10th house...I made a comment on her website but it says its still awaiting moderation. I guess my criticism of her interpretation was not to her taste! lol

Anyway, thanks for the chart! It was great opportunity to learn and see the results :) My prediction from the other chart was that he would stay in office for 4 years only. I think seeing the outcry that is going on now, that is not out of question....:lol:
 

anjelik

Well-known member
Are you going to throw a party?
Repubs are celebrating...although silently (being a part of the silent majority) :ninja::ninja:

I'm silently celebrating. I'm celebrating because this is the closest thing to anarchy that the US can get for a completely broken and f'd up political system and the inner punk rock chick in me and loving to see the disappointment on people's faces. The funny thing is that the HRC supporters loved to get on their soapbox and condemn Trump supporters by calling them names and insulting their intelligence that they ended up being the idiots. I never thought that Trump would win and this was only based on the fact that my FB feed is completely flooded with HRC supporters - but clearly the minority was the whiniest and the loudest. I woke up truly shocked but also glad that she isn't the new POTUS. If the Dems didn't rig it and push Bernie out he would have been given a run for his money. Maybe they will learn to play fair next time and nominate a less flawed candidate. I do think he will be an only one term President and I bet a female Dem will win next election.

I live abroad, so my lips are sealed and I will just watch from a distance to see what unfolds.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I'm silently celebrating.
I'm celebrating because this is the closest thing to anarchy that the US can get
for a completely broken and f'd up political system

and the inner punk rock chick in me and loving to see the disappointment on people's faces.
The funny thing is that the HRC supporters loved to get on their soapbox
and condemn Trump supporters by calling them names and insulting their intelligence that they ended up being the idiots.
I never thought that Trump would win
and this was only based on the fact that my FB feed is completely flooded with HRC supporters
- but clearly the minority was the whiniest and the loudest.
I woke up truly shocked but also glad that she isn't the new POTUS.
If the Dems didn't rig it and push Bernie out
he would have been given a run for his money.

Maybe they will learn to play fair next time and nominate a less flawed candidate.
I do think he will be an only one term President
and I bet a female Dem will win next election.

I live abroad, so my lips are sealed and I will just watch from a distance to see what unfolds.
Trump indeed has won 276 electoral votes
becoming the 45th president of the United States.
His rival Hillary Clinton, the Democratic Party candidate
did not concede the election from her headquarters in New York :smile:

'I WILL NOT LET YOU DOWN - I LOVE AMERICA':
Trump's victory speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL_wh-d1pP4

Donald J. Trump has been elected the 45th President of the United States
according to the Electoral College.

FULL SPEECH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO4VJqBGgFE
 

Aquarius358

Well-known member
Thanks, Rafaella - especially for pointing out the antiscion of Saturn at 16Cap40 to which Mars applies to conjoin. I forgot to check them ... !!
On balance, I still think Venus has more going for her than Mars though, in this chart.
So that's kind of why I'm holding on to my original judgment! Mainly because of Jupiter and Fortuna and Venus applying to L10.
Thanks again for your input! Good stuff.
M.

Just a brief post mortem of my horary on the election result which was clearly a wrong judgment.

Rafaella was spot on with the antiscion point for L10 ...

I missed the antiscion - the ‘shadow’ point - of the presidency/job itself. Every planet has this ‘shadow’ point signifying ‘behind the scenes’ - showing what’s going on behind the scenes, in the shadows - not out front.

I let the fact that both parties were equal in strength and the Moon opposed Mars persuade me that Cinton would win.

Should've given more emphasis to the angular placement of Uranus in Trump's 1st - its square to Mars meant a 'sudden change' which was applying to Trump, Rx back towards him too … as indeed the vote did, in the end, producing the ’sudden change’ that occurred.

Anyway … I doubt if I’ll ever ignore antiscia points again! A good learning experience for me! 😳
 

david starling

Well-known member
Just a brief post mortem of my horary on the election result which was clearly a wrong judgment.

Rafaella was spot on with the antiscion point for L10 ...

I missed the antiscion - the ‘shadow’ point - of the presidency/job itself. Every planet has this ‘shadow’ point signifying ‘behind the scenes’ - showing what’s going on behind the scenes, in the shadows - not out front.

I let the fact that both parties were equal in strength and the Moon opposed Mars persuade me that Cinton would win.

Should've given more emphasis to the angular placement of Uranus in Trump's 1st - its square to Mars meant a 'sudden change' which was applying to Trump, Rx back towards him too … as indeed the vote did, in the end, producing the ’sudden change’ that occurred.

Anyway … I doubt if I’ll ever ignore antiscia points again! A good learning experience for me! ��

I would say you would have been right if it hadn't been for gender-bias from both the top and the bottom. We Astrologers tend to overlook gender, unless it's about something like dating. How could you have taken THAT into account?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I would say you would have been right if it hadn't been for gender-bias from both the top and the bottom.
We Astrologers tend to overlook gender, unless it's about something like dating.
How could you have taken THAT into account?
A member of our forum predicted a win for Trump three weeks ago
based on factors other than gender
:smile:

Hello:

Thank you for that post.

For the last 20 or more years, I have been a loyal and huge fan of The Mountain Astrologer, and its editor Tem Terrikar, for its overall quality journalism and other excellent aspects. However, I have serious questions and concerns about Kevin Burk's recent TMA article about the election chart for the nomination of Donald Trump as the official Republican nominee.

It's not that I doubt the time for this election chart, as others have? I think that the time of this chart is fine and is probably accurate.

It's just that Mr. Burk (who claims to be a teacher of astrology, no less) interprets the chart (july 21st, 2016, 10:19 pm EDT) completely WRONG. For example, the radix MOON in this chart is found in late Aquarius, but it is certainly NOT VOID OF COURSE.

http://mountainastrologer.com/tma/nomination-chart-part-1-donald-trump

The Moon's final aspect before it leaves the sign of Aquarius is an inconjunction (150 degree aspect) with the Sun in Cancer, found in the 6th house.

In election and mundane work, I have found the inconjunction to symbolize a fated, often malevolent event that changes the ball game, completely.

Give the fact that the Moon and the Sun in this chart are "intercepted" (something Mr. Burk also misses in his interpretation) the quincunx aspect falling in the 12th and 6th houses is akin to a nuclear bomb exploding, but nobody hears it, since the 12th house rules hidden things, and things going on behind the scenes.

But, because of the Moon's proximity to the Ascendant, the repurcussions could well go public ?

One intepretation of Moon inconj. Sun is essentially, the Moon (the public) tell the Sun to f. off, literally. The public mood is that of confusion and debilitation, as symbolized by Moon in the 12th house of Pisces. If you look at many of Trump's supporters, many are in denial about him, isn't it true; it's a dillusional relationship ?

That said, the best that we can say about the inconjunction is, it is an aspect of things broken, or things seperating or breaking apart. So, if Trump does win the Presidency, it will come at a great price for everyone, including him and his family !

Meanwhile, the chart ruler for Trump (Jupiter in Virgo) is found angular (in the 7th house of public approval) and Jupiter (also ruling the midheaven or the final prize) conjuncts the vertex as well as the north node in Virgo.

These all point to a Trump presidency, a win for him.

Trump's opponent (Clinton) is ruled by Mercury in Leo, which is found intercepted in the 6th house, a very weakened position for success. Meanwhile, the 6th house also symbolizes that Clinton's health could well be an issue, as Mercury is intercepted, hence delibitated.

Furthermore, Clinton is burdened with a very negative aspect, the very close inconjunction between Mercury and Pluto. We must remember that inconjunctions are mostly about work and health (6th house), or they are about secrets, either personal or financial (8th house). Could Mercury 150 d. Pluto symbolize a criminal investigation into Clinton's affairs, even legal action, as Pluto co-rules the 9th house of the courts. Even Trump admits that Clinton will be prosecuted, "jailed", if he gets elected as POTUS.

The Sun, disposing of Mercury, is inconjunct the Moon in the 12th house of secrets. I wonder, what secrets are about to be revealed about that Scorpion, that will change the entire ballgame (as predicted in this chart through the inconjunction of Sun and Moon).

Is it a future, Wikileaks bombshell admission about HRC, as recently predicted by WL founder Julian Assange.

Finally, I find the position of the ascendant degree (1 degree Pisces) to be fascinating. On the night of the election, late Monday night, Nov 8th, 2016, the Moon by transit crawls out of the 12th house of this chart and conjoins the chart's ascendant at 1 degree Pisces.

That speaks volumes, folks ! Does it mean that Trump locks up the presidency, or is he literally tied to the railway tracks, like a damsel in distress ? LOL

Please feel free to revisit the nomination chart for DJT, as it speaks volumes.
 

rafaella

Well-known member
A member of our forum predicted a win for Trump three weeks ago
based on factors other than gender
:smile:

So did I a year ago, (check page 1)http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86635

at that time I didn't even know whether he would still be in the race and who his opponent would be. But I have an advantage as I am not an American and am not constantly bombarded by US politics, so it was easier for me to not be biased and just study the chart with clear head. At that time I preferred Hillary, i never expected Trump to win until I looked at that chart and a chart of my own, plus his natal chart. His ASC is conjunct auspicious fixed star Regulus, royal King star...that promises riches and fame. Although it doesn't on its own point to him being a President, but it did help him his whole life. He does live like a King.
 
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