Logic behind proper horary questions and technique

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Catatonia

Well-known member
Proper Horary Technique: Asking Proper Horary Questions

Dear members,

Just recently I responded to someone's horary thread with a detailed response as to why their question was improperly asked.

In this thread I explained what a proper horary question should contain and entail in order to get a clear answer. There's more to it, but I keep seeing people run into very elementary issues with horary and come off unsatisfied. There's a lot of confusion regarding horary.

I will copy and paste my response to the individual in this thread so that members can read and respond. The next post will be my response in her thread.

Thanks again,

Catatonia
 
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Catatonia

Well-known member
Response to person's horary in regards to "the nature and relationship" of two people separate from the asker of the horary:

Catatonia said:
Asking what the nature of their relationship is not a proper horary question. Let me explain why. The reason it's improper and truly unanswerable is because horary is very methodical. We look for the significators of the querent and quesited and then we check out considerations for judgment and try to decipher the correct answer in a chart full of symbols. People who ask horary questions come into it and seriously muddy the entire picture--asking whether they should consider taking a job, the nature of someone's relationship to another person (like yours), how something will turn out, etc...

It's just plainly impossible to correctly decipher an answer to questions like these from a horary chart (but you can obviously try and fail miserably) because the heavens don't understand what you want from them. Horary questions are meant to be "yes" or "no," and to further that point, what's really the point of going to the heavens to ask them whether you should consider taking a job or the "nature of a relationship" when you obviously have a clear motive and agenda?

I hope I don't come off rude when I say that astrology isn't going to waste its time on clearing up whether you should consider something, what another person thinks of you, or whatever. Your question should be yes or no, otherwise you will not get a clear answer; and if you think that the answer has been correctly delineated then you wait and see how it turns out so you can judge for yourself whether that astrologer has correctly analyzed the chart or not. You will come to see that chart is wrong 9 times out of 10.

Think for yourself how you'd approach this and how ambiguous people make horary questions. You begin to look at a horary chart for the question you're asking, "What is the nature of their relationship?" You begin by trying to figure out who the querent is, but for some odd reason it's unclear because of what you wrote above:

Quote:
Am I in this chart or not? I didn't put myself in the question, but I'm interested in the answer for a reason.

Now it's unclear as to who is asking the question. Where do we start? You are the querent if you're asking and you wouldn't be asking if you had no interest. Secondly, who is the quesited? What's a little impersonal background--was he a friend and are you dating now, do you two even know one another? Perhaps the 7th house is appropriate in this case, then we can delineate from there.

But your question asks what the nature of the relationship is between him and someone else. How do we get astrology to twist with our wishes? How do we read the "nature" of something? If he's Moon in Capricorn conjoined to the Ascendant, this means you're heavily interested in him.

Now we can try to find a significator for her. Who is she? Is she a co-worker of yours? Do you know her in any way? If she's a co-worker then perhaps we can give her the 6th house rulership? Is she your boss? Then we can assign a 10th house authority. Are you actually friends? 11th house might work. She may be anything according to this horary and this horary states that he has 2 planets in his 1st (your 7th) which may or may not indicate her.

Because I have no more information to go on I'm going to wrap this thread up hoping you understand why things are so ambiguous and difficult to tangle through. People should be very cautious when asking horary questions because astrology doesn't bend to you, you bend to astrology.

On a final note, keep in mind this horary may or may not be radical because of the things I mentioned above. If a question isn't clear then the answer probably won't be either.

I'm going to start an entirely new thread linking this very length post so that everyone would be able to read and respond to this.

Thanks for reading,

Catatonia
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Catatonia

Well-known member
Proper horary questions look like this, clear yes or no:

"Will we get into a serious relationship?"

"Will we have sex?"

"Am I pregnant?"

"Will I get the job?"

"Is my sister pregnant?"

"Will my brother get into college?"

"Will I move into a new apartment within 6 month?"

"Will I immigrate this year (before 2011)?"

"Will my boss transfer me to another office?"

"Will I get the position at work (career question)?"

etc...

If anyone needs help with phrasing or has questions then please post.
 
BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
Asking what the nature of their relationship is not a proper horary question.
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I believe that question can be answered, but it must be asked correctly, because there are 6 or 7 possible aphorisms, but they all have different significators, and in one instance you aren't looking at aspects, rather you're looking at the last aspect the Moon made, so it really does make a huge difference.

If you look at Lily's Christian Astrology, almost all of the questions (with the except of those involving theft and illness) are basically phrased as "Yes or No?" or "Is it A or B?"
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Although it is well known that I do not follow standard horary procedures in my horary delineations, I cannot agree more with the above posts! I have mentioned elsewhere here on AW the need for specific, precise questions: specific questions for specific answers. In Tarot this has long been one of the most important rules. On skyscript I got into a big dispute with world famous horary astrology Deborah Houlding over this very issue (her point was the such specificity was NOT important!) Specific, well thought out questions invoke clear responses from the Cosmos-in geomancy, in Tarot, in horary astrology, in I Ching-in every form of divination!
 
BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
Specific, well thought out questions invoke clear responses from the Cosmos-in geomancy, in Tarot, in horary astrology, in I Ching-in every form of divination!
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That is my experience and people I know who are knowledgeable in Tarot and I-Ching have also repeatedly stated the exact same thing you have.
 
iwonder

iwonder

Well-known member
So when a question is born, should I spell it and not leave any assumptions?

For example, after replying to a job ad and sending resume, is "Will I get that job?" a valid question, if I don't describe the job somehow? In my head, I know exactly what job I am referring to, but it is not in the question.
 
BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
iwonder said:
So when a question is born, should I spell it and not leave any assumptions?

For example, after replying to a job ad and sending resume, is "Will I get that job?" a valid question, if I don't describe the job somehow? In my head, I know exactly what job I am referring to, but it is not in the question.
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It wouldn't hurt to be specific if you've applied for several jobs as a chartered accountant:

Will I get the job at the Big Corporation, Inc?

If you're looking for any job you can get, then:

Will I get the job as a lion tamer?

Will I be hired for the clerk's position?


Employers sometimes keep resumes on file for up to 6 months, so it is possible you could get a job that your previously applied for but thought you didn't get.

I interviewed for a job, was told two weeks later it had been filled, then a few weeks after that was offered the job because apparently the person hired either backed out or didn't last the first week or two.

In theory an Horary should show things like that (a retrograde significator later going direct etc), but it would make the reading difficult and might lead to mixed signals or interpretations.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
In my experience (as I mentioned above in this thread), the more specific the querent is, the clearer the response; now, this also depends upon who is doing the reading: if the querent is also the astrologer, then the only thing necessary is that the querent is very clear in their own mind what the question is. However, if another person is doing the reading, then the querent must clearly and as precisely as possible spell out exactly what they want to know, so that the other person-doing the delineation (the astrologer)-can make full and applicable sense out of the horary figure relative to that specific question.
 
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Konrad

Account Closed
dr. farr said:
However, if another person is doing the reading, then the querent must clearly and as precisely as possible spell out exactly what they want to know, so that the other person-doing the delineation (the astrologer)-can make full and applicable sense out of the horary figure relative to that specific question.
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I think that's the crux of this matter. I feel you can ask whatever you want of Horary - after all if you believe as I do that astrology is a method of communing with the Divine, then that question was always going to be asked by you at that specific time. In my experience, a quick 5-minute chat with the person asking the question can clarify the situation enough to make sense of the chart and to, eventually, answer the question they want answered.

As for specifically spelling out what you want in a question, I don't agree with. The words which make up the question are just a collection of labels which the person has applied to a higher form of thought or idea. I believe the chart will represent the person's true desires whether they use the correct English or not.
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Vapir No2
 
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Catatonia

Well-known member
Konrad and other members,

The purpose of the thread is to guide you into drawing up and reading horary questions properly. What Konrad is saying is what I was worried about:

Konrad said:
I think that's the crux of this matter. I feel you can ask whatever you want of Horary
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This is the very reason I created this thread. Because you can't ask whatever you want in a horary.

Whether it's you reading it or me interpreting it for you, the question is limited. If it's asked improperly, then the answer will be limited. That is the bottom line. You can delienate any question you want, for example,

"Should I send this text?" or

"How does my dog feel?" or

"Does my cousin's step daughter's nieces twin want dinner tonight?"

But if you expect a clear response and a timeline you will NOT receive them!

I repeat, if the question is obscured by asking trivial matters or matters which are generally difficult to delienate from a horary such as the questions above, then you WILL NOT receive an accurate answer.

Perhaps people just want the relief of someone going to their thread and answering them, but whether the question's answer will turn out doesn't matter much to them. From what I understood, people asked horaries because they wanted clear cut answers...

By asking horaries which are not generally yes/no answerable, you basically devalue horary. When you ask a pileload of questions about whether you should do something or if someone loves you--you're really stuck in pergatory because those aren't things horary can help you out with. If you have to ask whether someone loves you or whether you should do something then you really have to wonder: not only will that chart be unradical, but how much does that person love if you have to ask?

How much do you really want to do something if you're asking whether you "should"?

Members need to understand that they won't get answers out of horaries if they continue asking ambiguous questions.
 
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Catatonia

Well-known member
iwonder said:
So when a question is born, should I spell it and not leave any assumptions?

For example, after replying to a job ad and sending resume, is "Will I get that job?" a valid question, if I don't describe the job somehow? In my head, I know exactly what job I am referring to, but it is not in the question.
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Hello iwonder,

I've got to say that that's probably the ideal situation. You want to have committed an action to which you apply the horary towards. For example, if you ask whether you'll marry someone you're not even in a relationship with--things get muddy...

If you ask the "Will I get that job?" question to yourself then you obviously have all the details you need inside your own head. If you, however, ask an astrologer to delienate the horary then you need to provide background information on your motivation towards the job, how long ago you applied, what kind of job..

.. basically anything you feel might benefit the reading
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I fully agree that trivial questions-even if specific-won't usually get clear, reliable responses; the issue is, however, what is trivial? A question one person might consider trivial might be very important to another. However, one must not get ridiculous about this: I think the rule is that the matter must carry at least moderate significance for the person asking it:
-will he kiss me on our date? I would consider trivial
-will our date lead to a deeper relationship? I would consider significant
...these concepts apply to ALL forms of legitimate divination, not only to horary...
 
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Konrad

Account Closed
Catatonia said:
Konrad and other members,

The purpose of the thread is to guide you into drawing up and reading horary questions properly. What Konrad is saying is what I was worried about:



This is the very reason I created this thread. Because you can't ask whatever you want in a horary.
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I get the purpose of the thread, what I?m getting at is what makes you think you can tell someone if their concern is trivial or not worthy of an answer?

It's all well and good if you refuse to interpret these "trivial" matters but I don't see why you should try and implement your views on Horary practice onto others.

For example, many people told a member of this board that you cannot ask the same question more than once, something I think is incorrect. This member asked me the same question (or a slight variation of it) a couple of times on different days and guess what? the chart had the same theme to it even though the Moon had progressed and the ASc was in a different sign.

Personally, I'd look at each chart and work through the question before answering it. In Dr. Farr's example of kissing on the first date, I would chat to the person to find out what they truly wanted, it takes 5 minutes and it helps immensley when reading the chart. If they really just wanted to know if they would kiss, then the astrologer has a choice whether or not they want to answer it. For me, I would answer anything as I love to use astrology and it still fills me with astonishment and wonder when the information in the chart comes to pass.

I realise different people have their own ways but I don't see why we should all confer to your logic, Catatonia. I like to treat each reading individually and, as I said, actually talking with the querent about what they want will allow you to answer the question more fully or make the choice not to read it.
________
Creampie gangbang
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I like Konrad's outlook!! What he says about talking with the querent regarding their matter-and how much it really means to them-I don't think can be doubted as to its great value.
But here on the internet (AW) we can't really do that-here, I think, we must evaluate triviality-or significance-without much aid from the querent; that's what I do, and I only delineate when I believe the question to likely be at least
modestly significant to the querent, based upon what the querent posts and the nature of the question they have posed-but that's just the way I do it, here on AW, and others here will have a different take on what they will or will not respond to.
 
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Catatonia

Well-known member
Konrad,

what I´m getting at is what makes you think you can tell someone if their concern is trivial or not worthy of an answer?
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That is the point, I'm NOT telling someone what their concern should be. I'm telling people that they won't get the answer they want. Whatever you say to them based on their horary won't matter. The universe will NOT give that person an accurate answer!

Perhaps it's worth going over again.

You can draw up 15 charts that has different placements and hold the same theme, and you still won't get an accurate answer.

It's not only trivial questions that don't get taken into consideration. And I'm not defining what's trivial and what's not. Let's take an example.

Konrad has eyes for a young lady. Konrad wonders if he should ask the young lady out on a date. Perhaps to him--this isn't trivial! So, Konrad draws up a horary that asks "Should I ask X out on a date?"

Konrad fails to get an accurate answer, loses time and faith and never asks girl out...

Why is this? Because whether you SHOULD or SHOULDN'T ask this girl out is trivial! This is NOT what horary can answer! I repeat, horary cannot and will not answer what you SHOULD or SHOULDN'T do because that's up to you!
This is what trivial means: it means you ask horary questions based on things that don't really matter--like whether you should or shouldn't ask this girl out. Either she accepts or she rejects you! Plain and simple AND no horary is necessary!

Perhaps you plan to ask her out and then cast a horary asking "Will this girl accept my date offer?" That is probably the best question out of all of them.

Catatonia

Konrad said:
It's all well and good if you refuse to interpret these "trivial" matters but I don't see why you should try and implement your views on Horary practice onto others.

For example, many people told a member of this board that you cannot ask the same question more than once, something I think is incorrect. This member asked me the same question (or a slight variation of it) a couple of times on different days and guess what? the chart had the same theme to it even though the Moon had progressed and the ASc was in a different sign.

Personally, I'd look at each chart and work through the question before answering it. In Dr. Farr's example of kissing on the first date, I would chat to the person to find out what they truly wanted, it takes 5 minutes and it helps immensley when reading the chart. If they really just wanted to know if they would kiss, then the astrologer has a choice whether or not they want to answer it. For me, I would answer anything as I love to use astrology and it still fills me with astonishment and wonder when the information in the chart comes to pass.

I realise different people have their own ways but I don't see why we should all confer to your logic, Catatonia. I like to treat each reading individually and, as I said, actually talking with the querent about what they want will allow you to answer the question more fully or make the choice not to read it.
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S

Serendipity

Well-known member
I found this on a site ... I thought it was informative in regard to this discussion. (http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/horaryconsultations.html)

Rules for Asking Horary Questions

The question must be important to the person asking it. This statement has two meanings. The first is that in order for a horary chart to give an accurate answer the question must have a significant degree of mental or emotional meaning to the person who is asking it. Trivial matters do not make for good horary questions. In some sense it is best if the person asking the question is so consumed by it and needs it answered badly enough that it almost doesn't matter what the outcome is, because they simply want to know the answer even if it doesn't work out the way that they would prefer. A good horary question is one that has been eating away at a person for at least a night and a day, so much so that by the time that it is posed to the astrologer it has fully matured and can be articulated very precisely. The other meaning to the above rule is that a horary question has to have great importance to the questioner him or herself in a personal way, and therefore questions should not be asked for other people, or about other people's business unless it has direct personal meaning to the person asking. Some would object to this rule, and in certain cases there are exceptions, but in general I ask that this be followed pretty closely by my clients.
  • The question must be answerable. This seems pretty self-explanatory. The question must be verifiable. Horary doesn't work very well with most spiritual questions concerning karma, or reincarnation, theology and other such things like speculative history and philosophy for example. For example, "what is the meaning of life" is not a legitimate horary question, since there is no viable way to answer the question with the techniques of horary astrology.
  • The question can only be asked once. This is a generally accepted rule for most forms of divination, such as Tarot and the I-Ching for example. The only possible exception being that if a great deal of time has passed and circumstances have changed significantly since the last time you asked the question, then it may be permissible to ask the question again in light of the new circumstances.
  • Only one question at a time. This is also a pretty simple and generally accepted rule. At any given horary consultation only one question may be asked at that time. Part of the reason being that this ensures that the question asked is of the utmost importance to the querent. The other reason is that horary astrology relies on a very narrow technical framework, and within the context of that framework it is usually not possible to distinguish between multiple questions in the same chart. So, only one question per horary.
Proper and Improper Horary Questions

Horary can be much more specific and precise than natal astrology, which can be both good and bad in certain instances. While it is very good at answering specific questions like "will I get the job?", it is not very good at asking broader ranging questions such as "what kind of a career am I best suited for?".
Most horary questions should be answerable with a straight forward 'yes' or 'no' response. Additionally, the question should be directed towards determining something that either will or will not happen in the future, although it should not be directed towards determining whether the questioner 'should' or should not do something in the future. Horary is useful for determining what will happen in the future, but it is not very useful for asking advice about what actions one should take.
For example "should I take the job offer?" would not be an appropriate horary question, because whether or not the job 'should' be taken is ambiguous and involves some sort of subjective value judgement about the quality of the job and its appropriateness for you at that point in your life, presumably. A more appropriate horary question would be "will I get the job?" because it references something that definitely will or will not happen in the future, and thus it has a straightforward yes or no answer. This is important because the second question can be depicted in a horoscopic chart with much less ambiguity or subjective value judgements on my part, whereas that is not the case in the first instance.
So, please do not pose questions about what you 'should' do, but instead think more in terms of questions about what 'will' happen in the future.
One final point here: the question answered by the horary chart is always the one that is posed to the astrologer, exactly as it is phrased, so it is important to think about your question quite a bit beforehand and to phrase it very precisely.
 
lillyjgc

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
I go by these: (But others can do it however they wish)
Considerations before judgement (http://astrologynotes.org/Considerat...fore_judgement)

William Lilly considered an authority on Horary astrology by many practioners, wrote in his book Christian Astrology that not every horary chart is fit to be judged, and laid out twelve "considerations" about the chart that should be looked at to determine whether the chart is fit. The purpose of this was most likely to weed out questions that were asked frivolously or with malicious intent, or questions which the astrologer was not able to judge fairly. If the chart passes these twelve considerations, the astrologer deemed the question "radical" and fit to be judged:

Planetary Hour - The Lord of the hour should be of the same triplicity or nature as the Lord of the Ascendant (most astrologers today consider additional indicators of a connection between hour ruler and ascendant ruler).

The Ascendant must not be too early (0° - 3°). Something has to be learned or decided first
The Ascendant must not be too late (27° - 30°), the querent may already know the answer
The Ascendant, and the planet in the Ascendant, must describe the querent
The Moon must not be in square on opposition the lord of the seventh house
The Moon must not lie in the Via Combusta
The Moon must not be Void of Course
The cusp of the seventh house and its lord must not be afflicted
Saturn should not be on the Ascendant or in the first house, especially if retrograde
Saturn should not be in the seventh house
First house ruler should not be combust

Lilly
 
K

Konrad

Account Closed
Catatonia said:
Konrad,The universe will NOT give that person an accurate answer!
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Well that's a matter of opinion and it is one I disagree with.


Catatonia said:
Why is this? Because whether you SHOULD or SHOULDN'T ask this girl out is trivial! This is NOT what horary can answer! I repeat, horary cannot and will not answer what you SHOULD or SHOULDN'T do because that's up to you!
This is what trivial means: it means you ask horary questions based on things that don't really matter--like whether you should or shouldn't ask this girl out. Either she accepts or she rejects you! Plain and simple AND no horary is necessary!

Perhaps you plan to ask her out and then cast a horary asking "Will this girl accept my date offer?" That is probably the best question out of all of them.
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Again the first part of your post here is an opinion. I think most people see astrology as a resource of advice and some people need advice, even in the most "trivial" of things. Secondly, if a person asks you the "trivial" question and then you work with them a little, I'm almost 100% certain that you will arrive at a question that you are both happy with and you, as an astrologer, feel you can answer.

I get you don't like to answer these sorts of questions but as I have already stated, I will answer anything as I love to learn more and more about astrology, particuarly Horary. I'm sure you'd agree that it would be unwise of me to restrict my learning with other people's boundaries. I guess my point is: if you don't like the question asked try to find one you do like or don't answer it.
________
Marijuana vaporizers
 
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Catatonia

Well-known member
Konrad said:
Well that's a matter of opinion and it is one I disagree with.

I get you don't like to answer these sorts of questions but as I have already stated, I will answer anything as I love to learn more and more about astrology, particuarly Horary. I'm sure you'd agree that it would be unwise of me to restrict my learning with other people's boundaries. I guess my point is: if you don't like the question asked try to find one you do like or don't answer it.
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You still don't understand this.

This isn't MY opinion. This is the opinion of experts and I am paraphrasing. Check out some of the posts above that link experts to this post.

Catatonia
 
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