Modern and Traditional House Rulers

waybread · Aug 10, 2016

I use both in natal chart interpretation. I see them as more complimentary than conflicting.

Horary works differently. I use traditional rulers but may use modern planets as additional data points.

The modern planets/dwarf planets have been around plenty long for modern astrologers to know how they work, with the exception of Eris and the newer trans-Neptunians. I find Ceres also to be a cipher. But in terms of the anti-Pluto arguments, fuggedaboudit. Certainly I respect good traditional astrologers who do not use them and get good results without them. But the "recent discovery" (of Uranus??? In 1781??? Right???) or long orbit argument for Pluto just do not hold up, as chart and after chart interpretation will bear out.

I feel that if traditional astrologers don't want to use the modern outers, they shouldn't use the modern outers. But kindly stop badgering the rest of us who do use them.

The modern and traditional rulers do have a few commonalities.

Mars and Pluto (Scorpio)-- aggression that is not sensitive to our itty bitty feelings. (Mars is more like a punch to the nose, however, while Pluto deals more with major unwanted upheaval.)

Jupiter and Neptune (Pisces)-- both can give a kind of optimism (something will turn up!) that is not reality based.

Saturn and Uranus (Aquarius) in their own ways deal with a kind of reality-check or ground-truth. Their time orientations are different, however. Saturn is more of the 2+2=4 and no amount of Jupiterian or Neptunian optimism will alter that. Uranus, in contrast, notes that there can be a certain unreality on a past-based orientation ("but we've always done it this way,") that is fruitfully disregarded. 2+2 still equals 4, but in the past, some people thought that 2+2=5.

You often find people with heavy Capricorn-Aquarius influences as engineers or scientists. It takes both creative thinking and a solid knowledge of materials and math to be a research engineer, for example.

For us sun-Aquarians who use Placidus, look at the sign on your sun's house cusp. Is it Capricorn or Aquarius? If it is Capricorn, then Saturn will importantly influence your sun's manifestation.

Osamenor · Aug 10, 2016

Frisiangal said:
Chart aspects provide a lot of information regarding a person's dependence upon and individuality over other people's influence. If Moon is in aspect with an outer planet, I'd look to see how the traditional ruler of its sign is placed because the Moon responds and reacts to familiarity. You don't find that in the outer planet symbolism.

So, if I understand correctly, you're saying that if the moon is aspecting Uranus, you would look to Saturn for the aspect to play out? Or if the moon is aspecting Pluto, you would look to Mars, etc?

Frisiangal said:
Similarly the Sun in aspect to an outer planet at least shows that it is aware of what the planet is attempting to do.

Suppose an outer planet aspects both the sun and the moon. For instance, Neptune is in a grand trine with the sun and moon. Or Uranus is in a t-square with them. Or Pluto is conjunct the moon and sextile the sun. How would you view it then?

Frisiangal said:
It was having Aquarius on my 6th house cusp that led me to think in terms of Saturn's influence from the sign. My physical complaints have all been of a Saturn rather than Uranus influence. I'm of the generation that has Saturn and Uranus in the same sign, so there's always been a battle going on between them for me to change my ideas......even as I write!
This thought led to the other double rulers working in a similar manner.

Are there any health complaints associated with Uranus? Seems to me that medical astrology is very traditional... aren't the planets associated with specific health problems the traditional ones?

Do you see Saturn and/or Uranus influences in how you approach work (also sixth house)?

Osamenor · Aug 10, 2016

One more question for everyone in this thread: how would you use traditional and modern rulers in the context of determining the strength of the house based on the ruler's condition? Traditionally, if the ruler of the second house is in good condition, the native's financial situation is generally good; if the ruler of the seventh house is, they do well in marriage/partnership, etc.--and a ruler in poor condition would indicate struggles in those areas.

If a house has a modern and a traditional ruler, and one of them is better placed than the other, do you think there's a stronger impact on the house from that ruler? The Aquarius house might be more Uranian than Saturnian, for instance, if Uranus is better placed, or the other way around if Saturn is. If, that is, you use the "well placed" and "poorly placed" distinctions.

waybread · Aug 10, 2016

I'm not sure what you mean by "strength" or "condition." Are you thinking traditional astrology here? Modern astrology usually doesn't analyse house strength in this way.

Generally we look at aspects.

But to use a second house example. Suppose someone asks, "When is my money going to work out?"

You look at her second house, and see Saturn in or ruling the second house. This isn't too bad on its own: such a person could be extra thrifty and able to live handily on a low income. But we re-read the question. Then we note Saturn in a close square with Pluto. This is pretty much a signature for bankruptcy. Pluto deals with metaphorical "death," so if her finances aren't working out according to her OP, we pretty much need to tell her that she has to totally re-think her views about money. If she's of the Pluto in Scorpio generation, then Mars ruling Scorpio probably won't give us a dramatically different answer.

In a nativity I do think domiciled planets are extra-strong, but I don't use detriments, exaltations, or falls in nativities. I think a Mars in Cancer or Libra works differently, but not necessarily worse than a planet in some other sign. So in the case of your chart, I would note that Uranus conjunct MC is a good placement for an astrologer, as Uranus is the modern ruler of astrology. But as to whether "it's sitting pretty" or not, I'd want to see how it is aspected.

The same thing with houses. In traditional astrology and horary, angularity or a planet in a "bad" house means something. In modern natal astrology, I see houses on more or less the same footing. Each has its gifts and challenges.

Do you want to post a chart to discuss? It might be easier to discuss than a hypothetical.

Osamenor · Aug 10, 2016

waybread said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "strength" or "condition." Are you thinking traditional astrology here? Modern astrology usually doesn't analyse house strength in this way.

I'm trying to figure out how traditional and modern interpretations might both work. I know house strength is more a traditional thing, maybe exclusively traditional. I think what I'm trying to get at is, if a traditional interpretation of a birth chart says finances are not going to be in good shape, could adding a modern planet as second house ruler alter that picture? (I'm just using finances and second house as an example. The same could apply to any house and what it stand for.)

waybread said:
So in the case of your chart, I would note that Uranus conjunct MC is a good placement for an astrologer, as Uranus is the modern ruler of astrology. But as to whether "it's sitting pretty" or not, I'd want to see how it is aspected.

T-square with Jupiter and Saturn (Saturn is the focal planet, Jupiter on the IC), loose sextile with the sun, out of sign but close sextile to Mercury, out of sign sextile to AC/trine to DC.

I'm afraid posting my chart might take this thread too far off track. I started it to discuss house rulers, not my chart, and I don't want to make it all about me. I don't mind using my chart as an example, but I don't want it to turn into a complete digression. Maybe I/we should start another thread for that.

waybread · Aug 11, 2016

So your Uranus looks mixed, but in a T-square with Saturn, they don't appear to be giving you mixed messages so far as aspects go.

I've attached the chart of Warren Buffet, the bazillionaire investor, to give a sense of how two rulers might work for the second house. In Placidus the second house is headlined by Aquarius and untentanted. In whole signs, Saturn actually moves into the second house.

I usually use Placidus, but I think whole signs actually work a lot better for Buffett. I'll keep it just because I had trouble even finding this chart as an illustration of a second house with two rulers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

A couple of things about this chart. It doesn't look easy, with so many hard aspects, notably the two rulers of the second house, but Saturn and Venus are domiciled, and Jupiter and the moon are in mutual reception. (If you want to give Jupiter an exaltation and Mars a fall, that's fine.)

So Saturn in the second actually works well for Buffett, because he is known for being extremely frugal with his own money. Also in whole signs, Jupiter-Pluto shifts to the 8th house of investments. Which is what he does.

With most people, Saturn and Uranus as rulers of the second in a square would suggest not only poverty, but sudden reversals of fortune. Given that this isn't a blind chart reading, however, we might note that squares can put a lot of internal pressure on the native to work very hard in the areas indicated by the planets. Given that this is Buffet, we might see personal frugality (Saturn) combined with the risk-taking (Uranus) needed to try new investments. Also, with Uranus on the IC, Buffet is considered somewhat eccentric for living in the same comparatively modest house in Omaha, NE for the past nearly 60 years.

In noting that Saturn is domiciled, I also note that it closely trines Buffett's sun-Neptune. Neptune can be the drunk in the gutter or the deluded fantasy, but it can also be the visionary. We have the ambitious combo of Venus quintile Saturn, and Mercury quintile Pluto. Uranus trines Buffett's moon. So these planets have some support in the chart.

Dirius · Aug 11, 2016

Osamenor said:
One more question for everyone in this thread: how would you use traditional and modern rulers in the context of determining the strength of the house based on the ruler's condition? Traditionally, if the ruler of the second house is in good condition, the native's financial situation is generally good; if the ruler of the seventh house is, they do well in marriage/partnership, etc.--and a ruler in poor condition would indicate struggles in those areas.

If a house has a modern and a traditional ruler, and one of them is better placed than the other, do you think there's a stronger impact on the house from that ruler? The Aquarius house might be more Uranian than Saturnian, for instance, if Uranus is better placed, or the other way around if Saturn is. If, that is, you use the "well placed" and "poorly placed" distinctions.

How are planets that don't have essential dignity, like triplicity, considered to be either "poorly" or "badly" placed in the first place?

Frisiangal · Aug 11, 2016

I wish I knew how to keep old quotes into next post! :sideways:

Osamenor said:
Osamenor said:

So, if I understand correctly, you're saying that if the moon is aspecting Uranus, you would look to Saturn for the aspect to play out? Or if the moon is aspecting Pluto, you would look to Mars, etc?

Click to expand...

I'd look at the aspect as playing out as an outer planet influence, yet the underlying thread pulling the string would be the traditional planet influence. Moon can have difficulty with its perception that there is a necessity in the outer planets functions towards experiencing things differently. Even positive aspects can have drawbacks.

Suppose an outer planet aspects both the sun and the moon. For instance, Neptune is in a grand trine with the sun and moon. Or Uranus is in a t-square with them. Or Pluto is conjunct the moon and sextile the sun. How would you view it then?

Click to expand...

I'd have to think a lot about it first. Moon is the familiar past way, Sun is the 'yellow brick road' to continue along.

Are there any health complaints associated with Uranus? Seems to me that medical astrology is very traditional... aren't the planets associated with specific health problems the traditional ones?

Click to expand...

In health astrology Aquarius rules over a region of the lower body. The Leo-Aquarius axis represents 'the backbone' (of life).Uranus has a function within that region, as well as rulership over the central circulatory system (autonomy?). As said, Uranus is the indicator that things are in constant change.....which is rather intriguing considering Aquarius is a FIXED sign. The AIR temperament of mental thought patterns that are able to, yet may not necessarily budge? A touch of Saturn holding on to them for whatever reason, that is found in their physical manifestation ?

The same goes for Neptune and Pluto and their sign rulerships.

I'm not getting into traditional versus modern thought disagreements. The traditionalists have their own thought patterns regarding the physical functions. Not knowing the techniques involved, I just think modern rulerships get to the answer quicker.

One thought does continue to nag at me.
Taking Saturn as the limits of physical manifestation on Earth, the modern rulerships do not equally cover each planet in a different temperament. None have rulership in Fire or Cardinal signs. Pluto 'is implied' to be modern ruler of Aries rather than Scorpio and I can personally see a relevance in this. Pluto totally destroys an outdated function to bring about something entirely new. A person/situation is never who/what they once were following a Pluto transit. That seems to fit better with the rise from animal to human consciousness of Aries than the rising of the Phoenix from the ashes of Scorpio.

Do you see Saturn and/or Uranus influences in how you approach work (also sixth house)?

Click to expand...

Long retired, my 'work' took on more the character of a 10th house influence, in which both Saturn and Uranus are placed. All were strongly influenced by Gemini, involving personal communicative contact in some form or other with the rest of the world. However, the straight division of 1¾-3½-7 years change influence from Uranus was present.

In terms of working with astrology, I still 'feel' the strong Saturn influence. I've always been more interested and concerned with the effect in 'The Now' of planetary symbolism; how it manifests in daily life. Even with Uranus conjunct M.C., I 'm not 'Uranian' in any way. I'm still the 9th house Mercury 'learning' through practise to gain more Jupiterian knowledge and
understanding.

My thoughts remain only personal ideas I work with and are not written in stone! It's for each astrology enthusiast to discover and use astro. symbolism in the manner that works best and imparts the most for them.

JUPITERASC · Aug 11, 2016

Oddity said:
So sect is irrelevant?
I wouldn't be too quick about that, but it is, of course, a personal decision.

Traditional House Rulers take sect into consideration

graay ghost said:
Speaking of sect,
it makes me wonder
if outer planets should be planets that are never considered to be in sect.

If you are a modern astrologer then, your personal opinion on the issue would be helpful

Jehan · Aug 11, 2016

JUPITERASC said:
Traditional House Rulers take sect into consideration

If you are a modern astrologer then, your personal opinion on the issue would be helpful

Sect and the movement of the outer planets through the bounds has been the greater part of my research through out this last year. This is why I was inquiring about Saturn's rulership over the first term of the Chaldean essential dignities table in another thread, specifically while Studying Pluto's movement through this term. In June 1940, President Roosevelt organized the National Defense Research Committee. Pluto was at 1 degree Leo while Jupiter and Saturn made made a square aspect from the early degrees of Taurus. When the first bomb was used on August the 6th 1945, Pluto had moved into The terms of Venus of the Egyptian tables. I find it interesting that this moment happened when Pluto was squaring that point of the previous Jupiter/Saturn conjunction in the domicile of Venus , while also in conversation with a set of previous eclipses that happened in Aries and a Lunar eclipse that happened earlier in Taurus in April of 1940. There are other examples throughout history where there are similar correlations. The potential of any outer planetary energy can only be unlocked through the greater inner planetary cycles in my opinion. Like a manual clock with gears. I still have much more research to complete on this however before I can safely assert any definitive statistical evidence. I can not completely rule out their energy for I have seen too many incidences that would suggest they have some say. For them to rule a sign, I go with the traditional rulerships first, however if one would notice Neptune's squaring of Saturn at this time you could see that Neptune is revealing quite a bit of Old Saturn while he rest his weary bones in the tub. What's even more interesting is that, as I write this,Mercury rises with his foot on the horizon looking across the way at The Neptune only he can see. This really is a coincidence ;-)

JUPITERASC · Aug 11, 2016

Jehan said:
Sect and the movement of the outer planets through the bounds has been the greater part of my research through out this last year. This is why I was inquiring about Saturn's rulership over the first term of the Chaldean essential dignities table in another thread, specifically while Studying Pluto's movement through this term. In June 1940, President Roosevelt organized the National Defense Research Committee. Pluto was at 1 degree Leo while Jupiter and Saturn made made a square aspect from the early degrees of Taurus. When the first bomb was used on August the 6th 1945, Pluto had moved into The terms of Venus of the Egyptian tables. I find it interesting that this moment happened when Pluto was squaring that point of the previous Jupiter/Saturn conjunction in the domicile of Venus , while also in conversation with a set of previous eclipses that happened in Aries and a Lunar eclipse that happened earlier in Taurus in April of 1940. There are other examples throughout history where there are similar correlations. The potential of any outer planetary energy can only be unlocked through the greater inner planetary cycles in my opinion. Like a manual clock with gears. I still have much more research to complete on this however before I can safely assert any definitive statistical evidence. I can not completely rule out their energy for I have seen too many incidences that would suggest they have some say. For them to rule a sign, I go with the traditional rulerships first, however if one would notice Neptune's squaring of Saturn at this time you could see that Neptune is revealing quite a bit of Old Saturn while he rest his weary bones in the tub. What's even more interesting is that, as I write this,Mercury rises with his foot on the horizon looking across the way at The Neptune only he can see. This really is a coincidence ;-)

You are a modern astrologers who used the Traditional methodology of bounds

but there are few if any other modern astrologers on this thread who do that
at least if there are, they have not said so
nor mentioned their thoughts on the matter

would be interesting to have some completed research on this issue

for example Jehan
consider the effects of eclipses as well as bounds

AppLeo · Aug 11, 2016

What if we just assigned the signs to different rulers. Pisces would be ruled by Mars, so if someone feels anger wherever the house that has Pisces, we figure out where that anger would manifest.

david starling · Aug 11, 2016

How many ways are there to determine House-ruler? Can that change from Placidian to Whole-sign Houses?

Oddity · Aug 11, 2016

david starling said:
How many ways are there to determine House-ruler? Can that change from Placidian to Whole-sign Houses?

It absolutely can change with house system. That's kind of the point.

Okay - say your ascendant is 2 Libra. If you're using Placidus, it's quite possible your second house cusp is 28 Libra (depending on latitude). So your first and second houses are both ruled by Venus.

If you're using whole signs, and your ascendant is anywhere in Libra, then your first house ruler is still Venus. But your second house ruler is Mars because whole sign houses means exactly what it says - one sign per house - if the first house is Libra, the second is Scorpio, the third house is Sag, and so on.

Osamenor · Aug 11, 2016

Dirius said:
How are planets that don't have essential dignity, like triplicity, considered to be either "poorly" or "badly" placed in the first place?

I was thinking of placements that would give a planet extra influence, like being on an angle, being the ascendant ruler, being in aspect with the sun and/or moon, being part of a stellium, that kind of thing. If those things apply to Saturn but not to Uranus, I was thinking that might make Saturn the better placed planet. Not that Uranus is necessarily poorly placed, but that it doesn't have those extra strength boosters.

Conversely, if Uranus is on angle, in a stellium, aspecting the sun or moon, etc., while Saturn meets the traditional definition of poorly placed, then I would think Uranus might be coming through more clearly.

Dirius · Aug 11, 2016

Osamenor said:
I was thinking of placements that would give a planet extra influence, like being on an angle, being the ascendant ruler, being in aspect with the sun and/or moon, being part of a stellium, that kind of thing. If those things apply to Saturn but not to Uranus, I was thinking that might make Saturn the better placed planet. Not that Uranus is necessarily poorly placed, but that it doesn't have those extra strength boosters.

Conversely, if Uranus is on angle, in a stellium, aspecting the sun or moon, etc., while Saturn meets the traditional definition of poorly placed, then I would think Uranus might be coming through more clearly.

But then by definition the 7 classical planets will always have the extra added boost/nerf from essential dignity/debility, so you can't really evaluate the 3 outers under the same conditions as the 7 classical ones, unless you arrange dignities for them too.

I mean, if a planet is not capable of having (for example) a certain kind of strengthening factor, while the other ruler does, that would certainly put him second in line at all times.

Jehan · Aug 11, 2016

JUPITERASC said:
You are a modern astrologers who used the Traditional methodology of bounds

but there are few if any other modern astrologers on this thread who do that
at least if there are, they have not said so
nor mentioned their thoughts on the matter

would be interesting to have some completed research on this issue

for example Jehan
consider the effects of eclipses as well as bounds

I don't consider myself under the classification of modern or traditional... I am an observer first and foremost; however, with that said Astrology has a base (Hellenistic/ Classical) and it works and should be studied and appreciated in effort to truly understand how the perception of the new symbology that is present really correlates with in the context of this awakened state. A bridge to understanding how the celestial mechanism of all that is present is what is needed and it soon will be time for the greater community to ask these greater questions such as I. I know that I am not the only one actually attempting to put this puzzle together😌. As far as eclipses, I do take them into account., as far as for my research.... It's coming along and I hope to have the findings published by the end of Jupiter's exit from Libra.

david starling · Aug 12, 2016

Oddity said:
It absolutely can change with house system. That's kind of the point.

Okay - say your ascendant is 2 Libra. If you're using Placidus, it's quite possible your second house cusp is 28 Libra (depending on latitude). So your first and second houses are both ruled by Venus.

If you're using whole signs, and your ascendant is anywhere in Libra, then your first house ruler is still Venus. But your second house ruler is Mars because whole sign houses means exactly what it says - one sign per house - if the first house is Libra, the second is Scorpio, the third house is Sag, and so on.

All right, so Whole-sign, Asc. in Libra, and Saturn in-Sect in Libra (Day-Chart). Does Saturn take over as H1 ruler because it's exalted in Libra and Venus is out of Sect?

Oddity · Aug 12, 2016

david starling said:
All right, so Whole-sign, Asc. in Libra, and Saturn in-Sect in Libra (Day-Chart). Does Saturn take over as H1 ruler because it's exalted in Libra and Venus is out of Sect?

No. If Venus doesn't see the ascendant by Ptolemaic aspect, though, and Saturn is sitting on the ascendant, a case could be made that Saturn is going to be more important because of dignity and proximity.

Frisiangal · Aug 12, 2016

Osamenor,
You may find the following idea of some help in determining a planet's functional strength in the chart.

In the astrology I was taught it was said that development followed the functions of the natural order of planets in their path round the Sun. This did not include Moon, of course, which only as a satellite of Earth is pulled into its orbit. The term 'stepping stones' was used as analogy; i.e. a person couldn't move onto the function of Venus before having worked with Mercury, etc.etc.
This would imply that the intent of purpose in the modern rulers of the signs cannot function before or without the function of the traditional ruler having left its mark.
I think this is why the Big 7 are more recogniseable as (daily )functions that are seen to (personally) manifest on Earth than the modern rulers of their signs (more collectively associated), with which a large majority of people have difficulty.

:smile:

Modern and Traditional House Rulers

waybread

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