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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 01-01-2010, 07:08 PM
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Need some education: Which charts to use when?

I would like to learn when to use which chart. There are natal charts, relocation charts, transits, progressed, solar arcs, solar return, lunar return, horary, synastry (bi-wheel, composite, Davison, first meeting charts), etc... It seems that for any given occasion one can start looking at at least a handful of different charts to try to draw conclusions. This is when things start getting fuzzy, with people seeing things that they want to see instead of what they should see. Are there any general guidelines as to which charts should be used first, second, last, or not used at all for a given situation? Thank you!

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Unread 01-01-2010, 08:00 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

it depends on what you're trying to do you have to mix in discretion once you know what all the different charts are for then you can use your judgement to decide which one to use.
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Unread 01-02-2010, 06:24 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C0rnholio View Post
...Are there any general guidelines as to which charts should be used first, second, last, or not used at all for a given situation?
I agree fully with Niplan's response but, for information, my own understanding of (and approach to) the use of various charts is as follows :-

When Looking at an Individual's Self-development
1. Natal Chart
This reveals our character; instinctive behaviour and life direction/purpose...So, it's the first chart to look at because it tells us "where the person is coming from and going to"......plus the baggage they can choose to carry with them or let go of on their journey.

2. Progressed "day-for-a-year" Chart*
This chart covers the 12 month period from birthday to birthday and highlights the (lifelong) lessons of the natal chart that will be the focus of our attention during that time...So, it's the second chart to look at because it tells us (in general terms) what can be learned from the events/transits we shall encounter each year.

3. Lunar "day-for-a-month" Progressed Chart (Tertiary Chart)
There are 12 of these for every day-for-a-year progressed chart, giving the same information as the latter on a month-by-month basis...So, these are primarily "timing" charts enabling us to determine the exact month in which the learning event/transit will occur...but they also provide us with a "12X magnification" view of what the lesson is about.

4. Transit Charts
There are 28-31 transit charts for every day-for-a-month lunar progressed chart, showing (on a daily basis) the events/transits relating to the highlighted progressed/natal chart lessons...So, these are the fourth charts to look at because they tell us on which days our learning will be exemplified by a specific event......However, we avoid information overload by focusing initially upon the transit period of slow-moving planets (to identify significant events) with faster-moving planet transits enabling us to "zoom-in" for more specific information on the daily unfolding of the event.

[*Note : Solar Arc Charts are progressed charts, with all planets "progressed" by the actual annual movement of the Sun each year....(This can vary from just under to just over 1 degree, but most astrologers use 1 degree for the initial "sighting" of significant aspects and adjust for accuracy only when/if they need to)......Thus, if the Sun moves one degree in a year, all 10 planets in the chart are progressed by one degree......whereas, the day-for-a-year progressed chart progresses all planets by the actual daily movement each of them makes.]
_________________________________

Next instalment at post 7.

Last edited by EJ53; 01-02-2010 at 02:07 PM.
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Unread 01-02-2010, 06:39 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niplan View Post
it depends on what you're trying to do you have to mix in discretion once you know what all the different charts are for then you can use your judgement to decide which one to use.
Yes, this is exactly what I want to know. I want to know what all the different charts are good for and also what they are not good for.

The natal chart is not for everything. And so is the progressed chart. And for some things you would rather use a relocation chart. Or maybe a solar return chart. But then, sometimes when you still cannot find something, there is always a temptation to look at all charts known to man. Then, while grasping at straws almost anything can be concluded. And this is when all the little science that we have starts morphing into art, and everything starts to become fuzzy. And, if one mixes in the concept of free will, then even the obvious indicators do not seem to be important. Where does one start and where does he/she stop with applying the astrological methods? When he/she stops caring? Or maybe when his/her knowledge ends? Or are there more strict rules of appropriate application of different charts and astrological methods? I want to know these rules.
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Unread 01-02-2010, 07:20 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Oh, EJ, thank you very much! This skill to avoid the information overload effect is extremely important for someone who is new, and someone who is learning. There are all these different tools/guns/bazookas available. And I can easily google and find the operating manuals for all of them, easily learn how to use them. But I still would not know which one to use when. Any generally accepted application guidelines would be very helpful. The complication with astrology is that the result will always depend on the tool that was used.

Astrology is not alone in this sense. Even with such a hard science as Statistics, different analysis tools can produce different results. But I suspect, like with Statistics, Astrology also has stricter rules and guidelines than what it appears to have at first glance.
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Unread 01-02-2010, 09:22 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

This is a great thread and question C0rnholio. My suggestion is that it becomes a sticky...
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Unread 01-02-2010, 02:05 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

When Attempting Predictions
1. Natal Chart
This is again the first chart to look at, because nothing of significance will happen unless the related lesson is shown here......(The Natal Promise).

2. Progressed "day-for-a-year" Chart
We use this to identify "progressed to natal" chart aspects, because nothing of significance will happen unless the natal promise is activated by progression.

3. Transit Charts
We use these to identify "progressed to natal chart aspects" being activated by a planet transitting either the progressed or natal planet, because a significant event will not occur until the natal promise is activated by transits....Once again though, we focus initially upon slow-moving planets (to avoid information overload) and "home-in" on these events by looking at the inner planet transits only if we need to......[However, if the aim is to accurately predict what the event itself might be (rather than it's nature), homing-in will always be required...and Tertiary Charts can be useful for this too.]

4. Solar Return Charts
These are transit charts calculated for the exact time at which the Sun returns to it's natal zodiac position each year, which indicate events to be experienced between then and the next Solar Return......So, we use them as "stand-alone" charts to provide additional information about 1-3 above.......and for timing purposes, by monitoring transits to them throughout the year.

For example, the signs on the SR angles show how we shall see and be seen by others; prominent planets will indicate the nature of our focus for the year (Mercury=communications, Venus=relationships,etc); the houses point to the activities that might be to the fore and aspects provide clues about our likely behaviour.......whilst a transit to any of these will indicate when it will be particularly active.

5. Lunar Return Charts
These are used in the same way as Solar Return Charts, but are active for only four weeks; focus more upon our feelings and are best used as another timing indicator for the SR chart.

6. Other Return Charts
The specific lifetime-lesson that we are learning in relation to each planet is shown by it's sign/house/aspects in the natal chart, and it's Return Chart provides us with an opportunity to review/consolidate that learning before the planet commences it's next cycle......with the events of each cycle getting progressively harder/easier, depending upon how well we have learned our earlier lessons.


When Looking at Relationships
1. Individual Natal Charts
The first step is to look at the individual natal charts of both people, to identify the significant behavioural patterns and astrological lessons of this lifetime.

2. Synastry Chart
Step two is this comparison of natal chart to natal chart, identifying the astrologically significant contacts between the two individuals......outer to inner planet contacts indicate (karmic) lessons; inner to inner planet contacts reveal personality clashes/compatibility; outer to outer planets show generational viewpoint clashes/compatibility and the meanings of planets to chart points will vary according to which are involved.

3. Composite Charts
These show how the couple's relationship is seen by outsiders......The two-person team, rather than two separate individuals......So, we interpret this in exactly the same way as an individual natal chart, but the behavioural patterns and astrological lessons apply to the couple rather than each of them.....and end if/when the relationship ends.

4. Davison/Relationship Charts
These reveal the purpose of the relationship itself......the astrological reason/purpose for the two people being together......So again we interpret as a natal chart, but the relationship itself is the "native"......Thus, for example, the Sun placement will indicate where/how the relationship will "shine" and the MC will show how it presents itself to the world.

[Note : Because Davison Charts are based upon a time and place of birth, they can be progressed in the same way as any other natal chart......(enabling us to see how the relationship is likely to develop)......Whilst with composite charts, we must progress both individual charts separately and then create a progressed composite chart from the two progressed individual charts.]

I do not have the expertise to comment on the other charts you mention, COrnholio......and for those charts I have commented upon, others may use a different approach to mine.

Last edited by EJ53; 01-17-2010 at 06:30 AM.
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Unread 01-02-2010, 07:07 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

This is invaluable information! Thank you very much, EJ!
I second what 07.Re said, this should be stickied, probably in the Education Forum.
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Unread 01-02-2010, 07:43 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

EJ,
Nice work.
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Unread 01-16-2010, 10:41 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Mods... I would like to bump this thread up and request that it becomes a sticky.

Thanks

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Unread 01-16-2010, 08:07 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

My attempt to simplify things a little
using EJ's numbering

1) Natal is master foto/blueprint and THE most important

2) progressed charts need only referred to couple of times a year and diary notes made of any aspects to the most important being --sun, moon and any other make by hard aspect to natal planets and Angles.

3) Transits are the most commonly used divination method but keep in mind they act as 'background influences' unless or until they make a mathamatical aspect to the Angles Asc/Desc & MC/IC and planets inside the chart.
These transits then 'set off' the natal aspects appertaining to which planet is being aspected. The most important being from mars onwards ie: jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune & pluto. External events look at angles, internal events are inside the chart not involving the angles

The sun,moon,venus,mercury are all very quickly moving and their influences are fleeting. Remember when a major transit is operating, always look to see what/when Mars (the ignition key) will activate a turning point.

4) Solar returns can be read as stand alone, but you will gain more information if used in conjunction with natal. Watch if any natal planets are touching Angles of SR and what house SR Asc falls in will be the major house theme for next 12months. Solar returns MC and Asc can be moved like solar arcs 1' per day approx for timing of events. SR are all about potential, like the natal -- but we don't always fulfill that potential due to circumstances beyond our control.

Re: relationships
theortically EJ has the right order but I would question the interpretations of composites and davision's cos some members here who specialises reads composites as if they were davison charts.

1) In composites I disregard planetary sign placements and instead focus on houses where the planets fall and on aspects. The composite Sun is the most important.

2) Aspects that occur in both natals and in the composite/davison will be psychological issues that need to be worked on in the relationship.

3) Aspects that occur in the composite but not in the natals are issues rising within the relationship that have not been dealt with before by either party.

4) In Davison the main difference is to look at sign placement, whilst ignore sign placement in the composite. Also look for sign strength and weakness, mutual reception, sole dispositors.

5) In both ‘composites’ and ‘Davisons’, look for midpoints that are conjoined by planets in either natal. In composites, these relationships seem to be referring to psychological issues, while in ‘Davidsons’, the midpoint relationships tend to refer to forces acting on the couple from outside the relationship.

6) Try putting your natal planets around the outside of either chart, to see who relates best to this relationship and who is gaining the most. This can be rather revealing

7) Also remember you can use transits over both these charts and again Angles are very sensitive points

Composites v Davison charts
Composite charts
If you go to www.astro.com click on free horoscopes, go to Interactive horoscopes, go down to Astroclick partner, that will bring up a composite chart and when you put the mouse over a planet will bring up a pop up box with the interpretation......

But you do need both times of birth to be accurate though.. enjoy.

Composites describe the relationship, not either one of you, but what you came together to learn or to do and how the 'pair of you' function when together....


http://books.google.com/books?id=dUulSwQoEC4C&pg=PR16&dq=robert+hand+compo sites&ei=r8HRSsXNEJvmygSIsP3eCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=fal se

The Book ---Planets in Composite: Analyzing Human Relationships By Robert Hand-- is greatly recommended

“The composite doesn't seem to describe what either person feels about the other. In this way it is very different from synastry, which describes the chemistry between two people in terms of how they affect each other.The composite chart is like a child, a third entity which carries the genetic imprints of both parents but combines these imprints in an entirely new way and exists independently of either of them”
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm

“Composites have their own laws and energies, and these have nothing to do with whether we are "well matched" with someone. A composite in itself will not tell us about compatibility. That is what synastry is for. The composite won't reveal whether the relationship is "good" or "bad" in terms of the chemistry between two people. The composite says to us, "If you choose to enter this relationship, here is its meaning and pattern of destiny”
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm

http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html

“For example, the composite Ascendant can indicate the circumstances surrounding the first meeting or the beginning of the relationship. It can also point to how a couple initiates things together (such as projects). Similarly, the end of a relationship can be depicted by the composite twelfth house. Once a relationship kicks in (moves beyond the initial stages), the composite Sun becomes more apparent. If a commitment to each other happens, the seventh and eighth houses come more clearly into focus. As such, the conditions surrounding the planets and houses in the composite chart can show us different stages of development of the relationship over time.”
http://www.cafeastrology.com/compositechart.html
click on link to read full article

http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html


Davison chart v Composite chart
“Important point! Both of these charts are for the two of you as a couple. They show things that will tend to happen in the relationship as well as how you act towards the outside world when you are together. They have no effect when you are apart
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/relationshipdavidson26.0.htm

If you are not sure about midpoints and want to simple calculate a pair try here...
Midpoints
http://www.cafeastrology.com/astrologytopics/midpoints.html
How to calculate midpoints http://www.cafeastrology.com/sunmoonmidpointrelationship.html

Free online midpoint calculator
http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/midpoints/index.php

Of greatest significance are the midpoints between the Sun and the Moon, and between the Ascendant and Midheaven. These of course are the indicators of the major things of life in general.
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/midpoints.html

Midpoint lessons
http://junojuno2.tripod.com/mini.htm
http://junojuno2.tripod.com/
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17513
The orb has to be very tight 1’ or max 1’30” to be effective though

Last edited by astrologer50; 05-07-2010 at 09:05 PM.
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Unread 01-16-2010, 10:06 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

All,

This thread's been made into a sticky and is now stuck to the top of the Greenhorns' Lounge. Thanks for bumping it, and, of course, for the great explanations, A50 and EJ.

Another thread that goes in a similar direction and may also help to understand which charts are used for what, through its descriptions of the various branches of Astrology, is: Welcome to the World of Astrology!

Happy studying.

AQ7
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Unread 01-17-2010, 06:17 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ53 View Post
......Note : Because Davison Charts are based upon a time and place of birth, they can be progressed......(enabling us to see how the relationship is likely to develop)......But we cannot do this with composite charts.
Since writing this, Wintersprite1/TK has pointed out to me that we can progress composite charts......by progressing the two individual charts and creating a new/progressed composite chart from them......So, I have amended my original comment to reflect this.

(Thanks, TK)
_________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
......Aspects that occur in both natals and in the composite will be psychological issues that need to be worked on in the relationship.
Your overall comments are an excellent simplification/clarification of mine, A50.

However, in relation to the specific comment quoted above......I see composite charts as showing how others/outsiders view the relationship, rather than issues for the couple to work on themselves......But agree that aspects appearing in both natal charts and in the composite will be psychological issues which can be worked on more effectively" by each individual whilst in the relationship.
__________________________________
Finally, anyone reading this "sticky" should bear in mind that my comments are based solely upon personal opinion/experience rather than any standard approach (by astrologers/the astrological community) to the use of charts...However, since (I think) the latter does not yet exist, this thread may be a useful guide/template that can be used by students to formulate their own approach to the use of the many astrological charts available to them.

[Note : What I'm saying is "please question every comment of mine around the forum, as they are mostly based upon personal opinion/experience rather than any proven textbook theories"......In truth, the only thing I am certain of is that "men should always jump as high as they can whenever a woman tells them to."]
_____________________________________
EJ
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Unread 01-17-2010, 09:06 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

EJ,
Quote:
However, in relation to the specific comment quoted above......I see composite charts as showing how others/outsiders view the relationship, rather than issues for the couple to work on themselves......But agree that aspects appearing in both natal charts and in the composite will be psychological issues which can be worked on more effectively" by each individual whilst in the relationship.
I agree but AW does have a member who seems to specialise in composites and gets feedback from members that seem accurate.

Therefore, I have amended my earlier post --
Quote:
2) Aspects that occur in both natals and in the composite/davison will be psychological issues that need to be worked on in the relationship


I personally thought it would be davison that the issues would need work on but not enough research, study has been done in this area. Robert Hand has a book on 'Composites' but I don't know of any books written on Davison charts and their meanings.

My rule of thumb would be, research, test your own charts and 'see for yourself' if mine or indeed other people's theory pans out. If it doesn't work then disregard --

Last edited by astrologer50; 01-17-2010 at 09:09 AM.
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Unread 05-04-2010, 10:54 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

. Lunar "day-for-a-month" Progressed Chart (Tertiary Chart)
There are 12 of these for every day-for-a-year progressed chart, giving the same information as the latter on a month-by-month basis...So, these are primarily "timing" charts enabling us to determine the exact month in which the learning event/transit will occur...but they also provide us with a "12X magnification" view of what the lesson is about..

is this the chart i want to use then, to find out when a form of communication will open between me and a friend, or one of my employment agencies?

please let me know so i can download one from astro website. also, what other elements should i add to this chart? i never know, there are so many buttons to place. even the size, sometimes is confusing.

thank you
Tertiary Progressions? I pulled up my natal chart and altered it from the dropdown menu to add this feature. is this correct? now what

Last edited by Amy; 04-03-2011 at 06:20 AM.
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Unread 07-08-2010, 10:59 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

kind of a newby question but i've read some thing on all these different charts you can use, is there a program of some sort in which to generate them or do you have to have previous knowledge to map them yourself?
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Unread 07-08-2010, 11:12 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aynee View Post
kind of a newby question but i've read some thing on all these different charts you can use, is there a program of some sort in which to generate them or do you have to have previous knowledge to map them yourself?
www.astro.com everyone gets their FREE charts from here
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Unread 07-24-2010, 05:31 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Still a bit confused here....

Which charts would I need if I wanted to look at an issue in my present? I am thinking the natal chart and a progressed chart (but looks like there are several types).

I would like to know whether or not I should continue on my latest career path or should I be taking a new route at this time in my life? I have a feeling it is the latter but I would like some guidance from my charts.

Which charts would give me the most useful info for this sort of inquiry?

Thanks!
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Unread 07-24-2010, 09:29 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queenfluff View Post
....Which charts would I need if I wanted to look at an issue in my present? I am thinking the natal chart and a progressed chart (but looks like there are several types).
Natal + Current "day-for-year" Progressed Chart + Transits for the period of the Progressed Chart...


EJ

Last edited by EJ53; 07-24-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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Unread 07-26-2010, 05:31 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

I use natal chart for personal evaluation.
Natal chart with transits and progressions for the events that are to transpire and and
composite charts for relationship between two persons or more. That is all.

I dont bother with any others. It is way too confusing and you can find any answer if you use enough data, that may suit your purpose. I dont use asteroids or fixed stars but just major aspects to the major planets. It simplifies things and you get your answers. The nodes are very important and I sometimes use Chiron too.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 07:44 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Great thread here, yes, and thank you for all the informations.
I didn't pay too much attention on composite chart because the interpretation seems to me either too mysterious or not personal enough. But I have and want to learn, what rules we are taking for this particular interpretation.
And then, this comment from EJ53
Quote:
3. Composite Charts
These show how the couple's relationship is seen by outsiders......The two-person team, rather than two separate individuals......So, we interpret this in exactly the same way as an individual natal chart, but the behavioural patterns and astrological lessons apply to the couple rather than each of them.....and end if/when the relationship ends.
I wonder what sense can give a composite when it is only the representation to others? How can a couple learn about a compositie? That's just my question, but perhaps, I didn't really understand the work you have to do on a composite?
Thankfully
Sunny
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Unread 08-05-2010, 05:07 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny View Post
...I wonder what sense can give a composite when it is only the representation to others? How can a couple learn about a composite?...
Outsiders see things we fail to see ourselves, Sunny...When we look at an individual natal chart we see that person as they are seen by others...and when we look at a composite, we see that couple as they are seen by others (which is different to how the two individuals are seen by others, or perceive the relationship themselves).

So, from composites, two individuals can each learn how their natal chart characteristics affect relationships.

EJ
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Unread 08-05-2010, 07:56 PM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Thank you very much, that makes sens!
Sunny
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Unread 08-06-2010, 08:50 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queenfluff View Post
Still a bit confused here....

Which charts would I need if I wanted to look at an issue in my present? I am thinking the natal chart and a progressed chart (but looks like there are several types).

I would like to know whether or not I should continue on my latest career path or should I be taking a new route at this time in my life? I have a feeling it is the latter but I would like some guidance from my charts.

Which charts would give me the most useful info for this sort of inquiry?

Thanks!
I agree with EJ and others here, prob best to start your own thread, with natal, progressed and transit tri wheel from astro and post in appropriate forum
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Unread 08-06-2010, 08:52 AM
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Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?

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Originally Posted by Sunny View Post
Great thread here, yes, and thank you for all the informations.
I didn't pay too much attention on composite chart because the interpretation seems to me either too mysterious or not personal enough. But I have and want to learn, what rules we are taking for this particular interpretation.
And then, this comment from EJ53
I wonder what sense can give a composite when it is only the representation to others? How can a couple learn about a compositie? That's just my question, but perhaps, I didn't really understand the work you have to do on a composite?
Thankfully
Sunny
There are books available on composites, espec Robert Hand

http://books.google.com/books?id=dUulSwQoEC4C&pg=PR16&dq=robert+hand+compo sites&ei=r8HRSsXNEJvmygSIsP3eCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=fal se

The Book ---Planets in Composite: Analyzing Human Relationships By Robert Hand-- is greatly recommended

“The composite doesn't seem to describe what either person feels about the other. In this way it is very different from synastry, which describes the chemistry between two people in terms of how they affect each other.The composite chart is like a child, a third entity which carries the genetic imprints of both parents but combines these imprints in an entirely new way and exists independently of either of them”
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm

“Composites have their own laws and energies, and these have nothing to do with whether we are "well matched" with someone. A composite in itself will not tell us about compatibility. That is what synastry is for. The composite won't reveal whether the relationship is "good" or "bad" in terms of the chemistry between two people. The composite says to us, "If you choose to enter this relationship, here is its meaning and pattern of destiny”
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm

http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html

“For example, the composite Ascendant can indicate the circumstances surrounding the first meeting or the beginning of the relationship. It can also point to how a couple initiates things together (such as projects). Similarly, the end of a relationship can be depicted by the composite twelfth house. Once a relationship kicks in (moves beyond the initial stages), the composite Sun becomes more apparent. If a commitment to each other happens, the seventh and eighth houses come more clearly into focus. As such, the conditions surrounding the planets and houses in the composite chart can show us different stages of development of the relationship over time.”
http://www.cafeastrology.com/compositechart.html
click on link to read full article

http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html
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