Jupiter or Neptune - which one rules the querent in Pisces

helena-IT

helena-IT

Well-known member
I had a very important job interview today (I think I've left a very good impression!) and I cast the chart immediately afterwards asking "Will I get this job?" but something left me confused: the ruler of Ascendant/Querent.

If I take Jupiter, traditional ruler of Pisces, I end up with one scenario but if I take (retrograde) Neptune the outcome is totally different, especially because the ruler of 10th house in Sagittarius is also Jupiter.

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Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
In traditional horary Astrology, its Jupiter. In modern horary astrology, its Neptune. Modern Horary astrology is typified by such authors as Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson. Traditional astrology by such authors as William Lilly.

I am a modern horary astrolger, so I use Neptune, and it works fine.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Zarathu said:
In traditional horary Astrology, its Jupiter. In modern horary astrology, its Neptune. Modern Horary astrology is typified by such authors as Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson. Traditional astrology by such authors as William Lilly.

I am a modern horary astrolger, so I use Neptune, and it works fine.
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Modern astrologers do differ on this matter :smile: For example
dr. farr said:
I believe that the long established (Western) dignity/detriment model was developed upon the framework of 12 signs and 7 planets, and that this model works perfectly well within the context of the Hellenist and Traditionalist whole system models. I also question the practicality of attempting to fit other cosmic factors (the outer planets) into that specific model. However, concepts such as dispositorship-like influences, elemental qualities, etc can be applied to these other cosmic factors (the outer planets), although upon an experimental basis (until several hundred years of such uses, and the collection of results from such uses, have been accumulated)...

I use such considerations (dignity, detriment as traditionally defined) only as secondary, modifying factors, and I have borrowed from ancient Vedic astrology the evaluative method called ashtakavarga (8 sources of energy) in making my primary estimations of how well each planet (or sign) will be enabled to express its specific nature and influence, ie, if a sign or planet is in fact "dignified" or "detrimented" (to use more familiar terms)

I will present the following Modernist allocation of (traditionally understood) sign, triplicity, sect, joy, term, face affinities of the outer planets: these affinities are followed by a certain group of esotericists I know, in their various astrological delineations, to make their determination of "dignity and detriment" in chart analysis. I present this material without further comment, and perhaps its will be of some interest to AW members following a Modernist astrological approach:

Note: the following allocations clearly are based upon the concept of Pluto being similar to Mars, Neptune being similar to Jupiter (which is somewhat different than most Modernist opinion, which usually makes Neptune similar to Venus), and Uranus being similar to Mercury.


ELEMENTAL ALLOCATIONS
Pluto: Fire + Earth
Neptune: Water
Uranus: Air

SIGN AFFINITIES
Pluto co-domicile in Scorpio (Mars primary dispositor of the sign)
Neptune co-domicile in Pisces (Jupiter primary dispositor of the sign)
Uranus co-domicile in Aquarius (Saturn primary dispositor of the sign)

Pluto: detrimented in Taurus; falls in Cancer; exalted in Capricorn (similar to Mars)
Neptune: detrimented in Virgo; falls in Capricorn; exalted in Cancer (similar to Jupiter)
Uranus: detrimented in Leo; falls in Pisces; exalted in Gemini (similar to Mercury, except that Mercury is exalted in earthy Virgo)

TRIPLICITY AFFINITIES:
Fire Triplicity: day + night co-participant = Pluto
Air Triplicity: day + night co-participant = Uranus
Water Triplicity: day + night co-participant = Neptune
Earth Triplicity: day + night co-participant = Pluto

SECT:
Pluto = nocturnal
Neptune = diurnal
Uranus = both (like Mercury)

JOYS:
Pluto in 6th house (sorrows in 12th house)
Neptune in 11th house (sorrows in 5th house)
Uranus in 1st house (sorrows in 7th house)

PLANETARY ORBIT SCHEDULE
(clearly an extension of the original Chaldean Order)
Pluto
Neptune
Uranus
Saturn
Jupiter
Mars
Sun
Venus
Mercury
Moon
....then back to Pluto

FACES:
Aries: 0-9= Mars; 10-19 = Sun; 20-29 = Venus
Taurus: 0-9 = Mercury; 10-19 = Moon; 20-29 = Pluto
Gemini: 0-9 = Neptune; 10-19 = Uranus; 20-29 = Saturn
Cancer: 0-9 = Jupiter; 10-19 = Mars; 20-29 = Sun
Leo: 0-9 = Venus; 10-19 = Mercury; 20-29 = Moon
Virgo: 0-9 = Pluto; 10-19 = Neptune; 20-29 = Uranus
Libra: 0-9 = Saturn; 10-19 = Jupiter; 20-29 = Mars
Scorpio: 0-9 = Sun; 10-19 = Venus' 20-29 = Mercury
Sagittarius: 0-9 = Moon; 10-19 = Pluto; 20-29 = Neptune
Capricorn: 0-9 = Uranus; 10-19 = Saturn; 20-29 = Jupiter
Aquarius: 0-9 = Mars; 10-19 = Sun; 20-29 = Venus
Pisces: 0-9 = Mercury; 10-19 = Moon; 20-29 = Pluto

TERMS:
Each sign is equally divided into 10 terms of 3 degrees each. The first term of each sign begins with the dispositor (primary dispositor) of that sign, then each following term is of the planet next in order in the Planetary Orbit Schedule (note that these "terms" include the Sun and Moon, which is like the ancient monomoiria planetary allocations of the West, and the triamsha varga allocations of Vedic astrology)

ARIES: Mars-Sun-Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter

TAURUS: Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun

GEMINI: Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Venus

CANCER: Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Venus-Mercury

LEO: Sun-Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars

VIRGO: Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Venus

LIBRA: Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun

SCORPIO: Mars-Sun-Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter

SAGITTARIUS: Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn

CAPRICORN: Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Pluto

AQUARIUS: Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Pluto

PISCES: Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Venus-Mercury-Moon-Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn
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D

dr. farr

Well-known member
In horary, unquestionably I always use Jupiter (if the signifying sign is Pisces) :why? simply because using Jupiter as significator for Pisces in horary has always "worked" best (in obtaining accurate delineations) for me. For me, theories or "traditionalist vs modernist" issues have made not the slightest difference in the practical approach I have taken over the decades.
In all other branches of astrological delineation, I use Jupiter as the primary "significator" for Pisces, and also Neptune as a secondary or "co-domicile" significator/factor for Pisces.
 
Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
One neat thing about astrology is that the "science is never a done deal". With so many of us, you can always find somebody out there, often times somebody fairly famous, to support your position.

Even the most hare brained positions(not implying that anyone here is harebrained) scheme will have supporters.

And then sometimes, the originator decides the position is really quite worthless, but its still persists.

One of these is Composite Charts. Rob Hand, one of the more famous 20th-21th century astrologers, was one of the first writers on these charts. He has since recanted and said that they have only limited worth. No one pays any attention. They are still used, often without any caveats at all about when and when they should not be used.
 
M

may28gemini

I'm harebrained. But I'm also not an astrologer. That's my loophole.

Composite charts are looney and makes zero sense. Why people still follow that is beyond me. Why people follow any sort of rulership with the outer planets makes zero sense to me too. Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are all extremely slow and are generational planets. Scorpio is no more Plutonian than Pisces is Neptunian than Aquarius Uranian. Scorpio is Martian, Pisces is Jupiteran, and Aquarius is Saturnine.

Here's a link that has a little chart that will explain things a lot bit better than what I can come up with:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1b.html
 
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helena-IT

helena-IT

Well-known member
I thank you all for your very interesting debate :)

I got the answer from the company I went to the job interview today. But before I say what it is, here's my interpretation:
(I took Jupiter as a Asc ruler)
So since both Asc and MC have the same ruler (Jupiter) I took Moon as a ruler of Asc.

Now, Moon (me) is in its Fall plus in Via combusta which basically means weak and/or no chances. Jupiter ruler of MC is in its house of exaltation but doesn't make any aspect to the Moon or MC, it trines Asc but the aspect is separating.

There were 3 people at the interview:
a very young engineer (Sun in the 7th) he was leading the interview
an HR woman (Venus) she asked me just 2 simple questions
and the boss (Saturn) he was siting still, didn't interfere and also asked me just 2 questions

Sun and Venus don't make any aspects to the Moon, I understand that for the Venus but strange for the Sun as the young man had the leading word, but obviously his word didn't mean "anything", he was just a "tech guy".

Moon and the Sun are both in the 7th since the young engineer and I were having the actual conversation still no aspects between them (or us).

Saturn (the boss) conjunct Moon in an applying aspect, but Saturn is peregrine and Moon is weak. Saturn trines Jupiter and the aspect is applying.

I had the feeling that Saturn (the boss) was the one who was supposed to give the final word on this and the Sun and Venus had no influence on him, make no aspects, so they were just figures.

So the way I saw it at the time I cast the chart, perhaps I left a good impression but my chances are weak.

And they called me today, 8 days after the interview, saying exactly what I thought, that I left a very good impression BUT that they would like to see me again.

As a final conclusion, I think Saturn (the boss) isn't too sure about me, he finds me both adequate and inadequate for the position, so he wants to interview me once more in order to justify his opinion, be it positive or negative.

But with Neptune as an Asc ruler, almost all aspects are separating.
 
helena-IT

helena-IT

Well-known member
poyi said:
I think both modern and traditional rulers in this horary seem to suggest negative result...
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yes I knew that - like I said mine chances were weak or there were no chances at all. So I didn't even expect to be called for the second interview. That's really surprising.
 
helena-IT

helena-IT

Well-known member
poyi said:
I think both modern and traditional rulers in this horary seem to suggest negative result...
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well there goes the horary - I was officially informed today that I got the job and I'm starting from first week of November.

I think from now on, I won't be casting any job related horary charts - I'll just trust my intuition which is obviously much stronger.

Thanks everyone anyway :)
 
poyi

poyi

Premium Member
When I said both ruler seem negative, Neptune is in her own home own sign but retrograde; Jupiter in cancer exalted but final dispositor Venus in Scorpio and in 8th house. I might got them both wrong, but you should check the 3 rd November eclipse in your natal.

Both Neptune and Jupiter (his final dispositor) are talking about the querent yourself. I didn't say you won't get the job however you wonder about the ruler of ascendant so both are in 12th or 8th. Moon also in Scorpio that is also representing you yourself. I should have stated myself better.
 
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helena-IT

helena-IT

Well-known member
poyi said:
When I said both ruler seem negative, Neptune is in her own home own sign but retrograde; Jupiter in cancer exalted but final dispositor Venus in Scorpio and in 8th house. I might got them both wrong, but you should check the 3 rd November eclipse in your natal.

Both Neptune and Jupiter (his final dispositor) are talking about the querent yourself. I didn't say you won't get the job however you wonder about the ruler of ascendant so both are in 12th or 8th. Moon also in Scorpio that is also representing you yourself. I should have stated myself better.
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But the Moon confuses me, because it's very week, in its fall + in Via combusta. So regardless other aspects I was really convinced that I didn't have a single chance.

Anyway, Eclipse is in a very tight conjunction with natal Sun and whole first house in general, and squaring natal Moon in 10th, so it's going to be a heavy start:
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Culpeper

Culpeper

Premium Member
Jupiter is used as the ruler of Pisces in horary astrology. Neptune is way too modern for this, and the idea is to keep things as simple for questions: do not multiply entities.

In the chart Jupiter rules both the first and the 10th house; therefore, you must use the Moon as your personal significator. Jupiter is significator of the job. Jupiter is in very good condition in the 5th house and in its exaltation. This should be a very good job, and Jupiter has been very helpful in charts recently. I would judge from this that you should get the job.

Your significator the Moon has difficulties: It is in its fall, via combusta and must pass Mercury and Saturn which will cause difficulties. These two planets represent other job applicants, but they also lack essential dignity. But the moon does complete the aspect. Let us know what happens. I have not yet read your other posts.
 
poyi

poyi

Premium Member
Culpeper said:
Jupiter is used as the ruler of Pisces in horary astrology. Neptune is way too modern for this, and the idea is to keep things as simple for questions: do not multiply entities.

In the chart Jupiter rules both the first and the 10th house; therefore, you must use the Moon as your personal significator. Jupiter is significator of the job. Jupiter is in very good condition in the 5th house and in its exaltation. This should be a very good job, and Jupiter has been very helpful in charts recently. I would judge from this that you should get the job.

Your significator the Moon has difficulties: It is in its fall, via combusta and must pass Mercury and Saturn which will cause difficulties. These two planets represent other job applicants, but they also lack essential dignity. But the moon does complete the aspect. Let us know what happens. I have not yet read your other posts.
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WOW I also saw similar things But have not got much idea logically and not technical skills either, was just following my gut. I have not read the chapter of Combusta in my Horary books. The assessment on the other applicants I also don't know how to do it.

Moon is at her fall and will first conjunct Mercury (news rules over 4th and 7th), North Node, then the good old Saturn (11th & 12th) in Scorpio then finished off with Venus (2nd and intercepted 7th) in Scorpio before leaving the sign. All these are under rulership of Mars.

I don't know how to interpret the above, but the contacts with the Moon, telling what will happen of this question about your job. It will be really helpful if you could update the outcome and what you experience with your new job in November and onward.
 
poyi

poyi

Premium Member
For the Solar eclipse being so significant to your natal sun, it will be wise to see what the Solar return sun is ruling in this current return as well as the natal rulership. To consider the longer term, chain Solar and Lunar eclipse might be helpful, to look at the next lunar, solar and so on. Today is the Lunar Eclipse in Aries, any hit on your natal, since you received the news today or yesterday before the eclipse.
 
helena-IT

helena-IT

Well-known member
Culpeper said:
Your significator the Moon has difficulties: It is in its fall, via combusta and must pass Mercury and Saturn which will cause difficulties. These two planets represent other job applicants, but they also lack essential dignity. But the moon does complete the aspect. Let us know what happens. I have not yet read your other posts.
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Since I got that job and like you've said it's a good one, the way I see (and feel) that weak Moon now is like my superiors will probably have high expectations, they will be very demanding and I don't think I will be able to fulfill my duties and that's where issues probably will arise.

poyi said:
Today is the Lunar Eclipse in Aries, any hit on your natal, since you received the news today or yesterday before the eclipse.
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Oh yes, it's hitting - Moon in the exact and perfect opposition to my natal Mercury
Mercury 26 Libra 0' 6" opposition Moon 26 Aries 24'36"

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poyi said:
It will be really helpful if you could update the outcome and what you experience with your new job in November and onward.
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Most I definitely will post the follow up, for I'm sensing it's not going to be an easy one. I think those trines between Saturn and Jupiter and Jupiter and Asc signify an easy flow, that why I've got this job easily, but the further development won't flow that easily.
 
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