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  #1  
Unread 11-17-2010, 08:31 PM
Wisenheimer Wisenheimer is offline
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Question The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

You have a customer come to you and they bring a chart with them. They suspect that they were adopted or that their mother had an affair and the father that they grew up with may not be their biological father.

They ask the question: "Who is my real father"?

I would like some input from the folks here as to how they would go about interpreting that information.

I am at a loss myself. The best that I could come up with is that I would look to either the 4th or 10th for Gemini's presence there and/or look to the Sun and Saturn since (I feel) both can represent the father figure and see what aspects are working. But beyond that I don't know what else to do.

Any insight here would help.

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  #2  
Unread 11-18-2010, 06:13 PM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

I would probably steer well clear of this subject. It has way too many pitfalls - for instance, why are they asking you instead of their parents or other family members? Whose toes might you be treading on by searching for this information in the chart? Ethically, I think it could be a bit dodgy.
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  #3  
Unread 11-18-2010, 10:50 PM
Wisenheimer Wisenheimer is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Actually, I can't answer the 2nd post because what I was discussing was a theoretical question with someone who is studying astrology and I wanted to give them a credible answer and I really couldn't but I promised them I would investigate further and see what I could come up with.

I have tried researching the net and going through what books I have but I wanted to hear from someone who may have in fact dealt with this first hand and what their procedure was.

I have dealt with the opposite situation once. I had someone ask me for a chart and it turned out that they had had "2 mothers". The chart was very clear that there had been 2 mothers, one for a short time and one for a long time. Where it ended up being that the mother died early and the grandmother had raised the person. BUT the person considered the mother who died early to be their true mother and the grandmother was very special, but was in fact the grandmother nevertheless. I can't give the exact placements because I don't have the chart anymore and can't reference it.

In that, the placement in the 4th actually tied directly back to the 7th house (the house of the grandparents) so the indicator was very clear and literally explained itself to a certain degree.

When a student of astrology asks another astrologer what their opinion is on a certain subject I believe the astrologer has a responsibility to help guide the student to learn and study with concrete answers. I am of the school of thought that astrology (if properly understood) can answer all questions. IF the astrologer is educated and trained well enough to understand the art of astrology.

If someone came to me professionally and asked me this question I would take the time and effort to talk to them at length before taking on the chart and made sure that they were genuinely interested in learning the information. That they were in a place that they could handle it and I would probably at least look at their planetary positions to see if they REALLY could handle it.

It has been my experience in the past that people have come to me wanting to know the "standard questions" - "When will I get rich, when will I find true love, when will I rule the world, etc" and yes, I have had a customer seriously ask me if I could see whether he would ever rule the world (seriously). I talk to them before I accept doing the chart and ask them a series of questions that will tell me and them whether they really want to know the answer. You would be surprised at the people who, when are forced to think about their questions that most of the time they are just asking the question to hear themselves talk. I end up saving them money in the end.

I will seek out Culpepper to see what he has to say about this. But I know the answer should be easy to see since it deals with the parents.
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  #4  
Unread 11-19-2010, 06:31 AM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

My personal opinion is that when you are conducting astrological consultations for people, you are dealing with people's emotions and thoughts in a way not dissimilar to a counsellor or a therapist and so it has to be bound by ethical considerations. Had you framed your post differently, Wisenheimer, so it was just a theoretical question, I might have responded differently. As it is, I'm not a professional yet, but as a potential professional of the future, I would explore the question with the client, but I wouldn't presume to give them a definitive answer. I would probably look at the chart for evidence of feelings of dissociation, difference, etc
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  #5  
Unread 11-19-2010, 09:16 AM
Tanne Tanne is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

I don't know if this is going to help but I have looked at my son's and step daughter's charts (they both have very involved step parents) and the one thing that I found is that the planet that represents the parent is on the exact degree as another planet - not necessarily a conjunction.
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  #6  
Unread 11-20-2010, 10:16 AM
Wisenheimer Wisenheimer is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

I feel this is going off onto a rabbit trail of sorts.

The question was and still is, can you see 2 fathers in a natal chart? At least that is the most important part of the question. Whether we tell the client or not is really incidental. Can we see it? That is what I want to know.

Maybe I should have framed the question differently, but nevertheless, the question is there. Framed correctly or not. Can anyone on this board, who reads charts, if having a chart of a client that has 2 fathers....could you see it? If so what would be the signs? What method would you use to verify 2 fathers?

Now with this being more clairifed, we should be able to get a more clear answer.
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  #7  
Unread 11-21-2010, 08:28 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

No, personally I have never seen 2 (genetic or "blood") fathers (or 2 genetic or "blood" mothers) indicated in a natal chart.
But this is only my personal experience and, relative to natal delineations it is somewhat limited, since my field is astro-therapeutics and I have never specifically searched for such indications.

Last edited by dr. farr; 11-21-2010 at 08:30 AM.
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  #8  
Unread 11-21-2010, 10:34 AM
Wisenheimer Wisenheimer is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

They could be 1 biological father, meaning the woman got pregnant by a man, left him early on OR he leaves her.....OR maybe he never knew he got her pregnant to begin with. She has the child, marries another man or lives with another man and the child only knows this man as his father.....BUT either the child has been told that he doesn't look anything like this man, stands out from the rest of the family OR might be adopted. The child is given enough clues as he grows up to suspect something is wrong. OR!!! He doesn't know anything BUT the chart shows clearly that there are in fact 2 fathers.

What are the possible planetary placements, aspects that would reveal this?
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  #9  
Unread 11-22-2010, 09:26 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Hi,
There are particular planetary placings that would perhaps make an astrologer raise an eyebrow regarding parentage.

The living but physically absent 'biological' parent could be suggestive within a harsh aspect from Sun or Moon to Neptune or from a 12th house influence.

I've seen correlations on more than one occasion of the child growing up without a mother through her death, in harsh aspects between Moon and Pluto. A harshly aspected Moon in the 8th house could suggest something similar. Yet I've seen more with difficult maternal relationships in the same aspects.

In recent years 'adoption' seems to have found a relationship with the 11th house, as opposed to the 5th house of children, yet I have not personally seen/read anywhere this to be clarified as a certainty...other than through those checking the aspects in the charts of Madonna and Angeline Jolie!!

What I have personally found significant is the aspects made from Sun and Moon to the astrological point MEAN Black Moon Lilith. In more cases than could be called average, Sun-BML has correlated with an 'unknown' father, or one with whom there has never been any physical attachment and relationship than through seed, or the child is unrecognised as paternal offspring.
Moon-BML has correlated to a 'non-biological', a surrogate mother...and not necessarily the wicked one...as a result of lack of a natural nuturing instinct/relationship from/with the biological mother.
Mercury conjunct BML, or BML in a 3rd house position, has coincided with step or half siblings, being raised by family, and/or an other than 'natural' family environment.

None of the above in itself can 'prove' anything. There would have to be further planetary aspects that would suggest an other than natural upbringing, that would raise the astrologer's other eyebrow and incline towards an intuitive joining of the dots. If the chart owner does not know the facts, there is no-thing or no-one (BML) to 'verify' the astrologer's feelings. In such a situation a wise one would be inclined to stay silent.
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  #10  
Unread 11-22-2010, 05:25 PM
Wisenheimer Wisenheimer is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

I have always had a limited knowledge of the parts and I am assuming that Black Moon Lilith is a part. I know nothing of it except to see the name in print from time to time.

I would be interested in researching this more, can you recommend any reliable information on it?
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  #11  
Unread 11-22-2010, 06:55 PM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Black Moon Lilith is a hypothetical planet. Hellenistic Lots/Parts for the father are Asc + Saturn - Sun and Asc + Saturn - Mercury. Reverse by night. The second can be used for the unknown father as Mercury is often hard to see. Rulers of the fourth house are important. The domicile ruler and triplicity ruler both represent fathers. Look for one combust as this signifies that it is hidden.
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  #12  
Unread 11-23-2010, 03:10 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

In addition to Culpeper's suggestions, hints from the more ancient sources (and also from Vedic astrological sources) would include:
-4th or 10th house in bicorporeal signs (esp Gemini and Pisces); especially so if the cusps (or sensitive degrees if using whole sign) are also in a bicorporeal decanate or bicorporeal duodenary (sign 1/12ths)
-a high % of natal planets posited in bicorporeal signs or in bicorporeal duodenaries
-Lot of the Father (or Lot of the Mother) falling in a bicorporeal sign (more especially so if also in a bicorporeal duodenary within that bicorporeal sign)


Here's an example re to the bicorporeal signs on the 4th or 10th and the hints they can give about "2 mothers/2fathers", taken from my own personal history:

-my mother is barely 17 years older than I; although my mother and grandmother and I all lived together, it was my grandmother who essentially raised me (my mother was much more like an older sister) I in fact regarded my grandmother as my "mother";
-my father and mother divorced before my 2nd year; an uncle lived with the 3 of us during the time of my growing up, and I regarded him as a "father"; furthermore, I did also have a stepfather for 5 years (from my 9th through my 14th year, although I didn't think of that bum as any kind of a father!)

Now, what signs do I have on my 4th and 10th natal houses? Sagittarius on the 4th and Gemini on the 10th...

Last edited by dr. farr; 11-23-2010 at 08:08 AM.
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  #13  
Unread 11-23-2010, 08:15 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Hi again,
The MEAN Black Moon called Lilith to which I was referring is a calculated non-physical point that correlates to the position of the Moon´s apogee. It is not the hypothetical planet Dark Moon believed to have been visible sometime in the 17th century(???) (I have often wondered if it was the shadow of the Moon during the period just before the crescent of a New Moon is visible), and to which I believe Culpeper may have been referring. It is also different than the asteroid named Lilith.
I do not work with parts.

I've been studying MEAN BML for over 11 years from a strictly personal perspective which differs with the mass of information available on the web that takes in and works from the creation myth of Adam's supposed 'first wife', who was ostracised from Eden in her demand for equality, to be replaced by submissive Eve (Moon). That said, there appears to be an active inner feeling sense in what Black Moon called Lilith represents, that lies dormant within and seeks recognition, that is not part of, or can be acclaimed to come from the reactional Moon.
Consequently, there is no reading that I can personally recommend, although the alternative section on this site carries many threads regarding the different Lilith's importance in the chart.

A study of Lilith becomes intriguing when there is a good knowledge of how the physical planets work because it often shows 'what is not physically there'.
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  #14  
Unread 11-23-2010, 08:21 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Dr. Farr wrote:
Quote:
Now, what signs do I have on my 4th and 10th natal houses? Sagittarius on the 4th and Gemini on the 10th...
So do both my husband and I.
My son's MC-IC axis is exact degree the reverse of my own! My husband and I share a Saturn in the 10th house, whilst my son's Saturn is conjunct his I.C.
My eldest daughter also has Sag. MC (conjunct dad's Sun)-Gem. IC.

As far as I can recall not one of us has had a pseudo mum or dad hiding in a cupboard.

Last edited by Frisiangal; 11-23-2010 at 08:26 AM. Reason: daughter added.
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  #15  
Unread 11-23-2010, 08:37 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

As I stated in my posting the bicorporeal signs can be HINTS, as can the other considerations mentioned by myself and by Culpeper-just like the BML can be a hint as well, and also other horoscopic factors. I offered my own case merely as an example (coincidence if you say so) of the bicorporeal hint.
No horoscopic factor is always definitive "written in stone" of any one thing or one condition (except the South Node, which always and under any and all circumstances and relative conditions, means trouble/chaos)

Last edited by dr. farr; 11-23-2010 at 08:45 AM.
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  #16  
Unread 11-25-2010, 07:58 AM
TaraChaffey TaraChaffey is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

The Sun signifies the real father, and Mars signifies the adoptive father. have a look at the House and Sign both fall in, describe the personality of both the men, and see which one matches what.
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  #17  
Unread 11-25-2010, 11:08 PM
TaraChaffey TaraChaffey is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Alrighty then! When i look at a chart i go from conception until birth and then onwards. You must use a different method. I would be happy to know how you work things out.... let me know.
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Unread 11-25-2010, 11:09 PM
TaraChaffey TaraChaffey is offline
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Was Mars the murderer? usually mars will signify a dominance, usually a dominant male.
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  #19  
Unread 11-26-2010, 08:59 PM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
Not in my chart they don't. And the difference is pretty striking, as one was a murderer and the other wasn't.
The man who raised the person would show up in the 10th house and/or fourth.. He is the real father if he raised and educated that person and felt that the client was his own child........If you looked at his chart there may be indications in his 11th or Neptune/Uranus in his 5th..........for adoption.....The biological father who had no influence on the child would not be shown I dont imagine but Neptune aspects to the Sun or connected to the 10th may indicate a secret father or one who is unknown or mysterious......or that deception has occurred with parentage.....The charts of both fathers in question would have to be thoroughly examined.......and I imagine that is not possible.
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Last edited by Claire19; 11-26-2010 at 09:16 PM.
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Unread 11-26-2010, 09:16 PM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

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Originally Posted by Claire19 View Post
We need the charts. Supposition and guesswork wont cut it.
No we don't. I'm quite confident that Olivia has the astrological knowledge required to understand her own chart.
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Unread 11-26-2010, 09:19 PM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

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Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
Not in my chart they don't. And the difference is pretty striking, as one was a murderer and the other wasn't.
How can you differientate between your two fathers in your chart??? One man's chart may show his murderous tendencies as against the other man but..... if you can post your chart anonymously I would like to see the influences that you perceive.
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Unread 11-26-2010, 09:20 PM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

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Originally Posted by 07.Re View Post
No we don't. I'm quite confident that Olivia has the astrological knowledge required to understand her own chart.
Sure she may know. But I dont.........I would like to see the effects.
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  #23  
Unread 09-01-2020, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisenheimer View Post
They could be 1 biological father, meaning the woman got pregnant by a man, left him early on OR he leaves her.....OR maybe he never knew he got her pregnant to begin with. She has the child, marries another man or lives with another man and the child only knows this man as his father.....BUT either the child has been told that he doesn't look anything like this man, stands out from the rest of the family OR might be adopted. The child is given enough clues as he grows up to suspect something is wrong. OR!!! He doesn't know anything BUT the chart shows clearly that there are in fact 2 fathers.

What are the possible planetary placements, aspects that would reveal this?
Or the married woman had a brief clandestine affair and got pregnant. I strongly suspect this is my situation.
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  #24  
Unread 09-20-2020, 02:04 AM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisenheimer View Post
You have a customer come to you and they bring a chart with them. They suspect that they were adopted or that their mother had an affair and the father that they grew up with may not be their biological father.

They ask the question: "Who is my real father"?

I would like some input from the folks here as to how they would go about interpreting that information.

I am at a loss myself. The best that I could come up with is that I would look to either the 4th or 10th for Gemini's presence there and/or look to the Sun and Saturn since (I feel) both can represent the father figure and see what aspects are working. But beyond that I don't know what else to do.

Any insight here would help.
this is tricky. Only DNA testing can say for sure whether the father is biological. We can look at the mother's chart as well as the native but again no real conclusion would be shown possibly....I would have to see both charts to make any real sort of comment.

my email is astrologyaustralia@hotmail.com for further information.
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Unread 06-26-2021, 07:47 PM
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Re: The art of seeing two fathers in a chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisenheimer View Post
You have a customer come to you and they bring a chart with them. They suspect that they were adopted or that their mother had an affair and the father that they grew up with may not be their biological father.

They ask the question: "Who is my real father"?

I would like some input from the folks here as to how they would go about interpreting that information.

I am at a loss myself. The best that I could come up with is that I would look to either the 4th or 10th for Gemini's presence there and/or look to the Sun and Saturn since (I feel) both can represent the father figure and see what aspects are working. But beyond that I don't know what else to do.

Any insight here would help.
I have 2 fathers. My uncle adopted me. So my father figure's brother is my real father.

PM me for my chart and I'm free for a discussion.
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