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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 05-27-2021, 01:28 PM
Clair Y Clair Y is offline
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William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Hi all,

I've been reading about William Lilly and how he wrote of cosignificators (or consignificators) for each of the houses. I believe the signs were based on the natural order of signs from Aries onwards whereas the planets were based on the Chaldean order.

I am just a little confused as to how to put these into practice. I understand the signs might have an affinity with the houses named (Aries 1st, Taurus 2nd etc). However, do the planets operate well in said houses in each case or does this rule differ from house to house?

I would just love to know if there is a rule to go off so that I can use it intuitively that anyone here is aware of?

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  #2  
Unread 05-27-2021, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post
Hi all,

I've been reading about William Lilly and how he wrote of cosignificators (or consignificators) for each of the houses. I believe the signs were based on the natural order of signs from Aries onwards whereas the planets were based on the Chaldean order.

I am just a little confused as to how to put these into practice. I understand the signs might have an affinity with the houses named (Aries 1st, Taurus 2nd etc). However, do the planets operate well in said houses in each case or does this rule differ from house to house?

I would just love to know if there is a rule to go off so that I can use it intuitively that anyone here is aware of?
A lof of Lillys things he had said are experimental. Some are confusing some are based on older theories but he never found any use for it.
Like buying mr b's house. He approached that chart in different methods. I think he uses natural planets as cosignificators but hierachy is skewed
House Ruler orAlmuten
Any dignified planet in the house
Natural ruler
Thats just my guess

Last edited by tikana; 05-27-2021 at 01:50 PM.
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Unread 05-27-2021, 01:49 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

It seemed like he was outlining the basics to set up for the rest of his book, horary and natal astrology. Whether it's applicable to horary, I'm not sure. The aries=1st house seemed to be involved more w/ medical astrology

In any cases these old authors really needed editors lol.
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  #4  
Unread 05-27-2021, 03:25 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post

Hi all,
I've been reading about William Lilly and how he wrote of cosignificators (or consignificators) for each of the houses. I believe the signs were based on the natural order of signs from Aries onwards whereas the planets were based on the Chaldean order.
I am just a little confused as to how to put these into practice. I understand the signs might have an affinity with the houses named (Aries 1st, Taurus 2nd etc). However, do the planets operate well in said houses in each case or does this rule differ from house to house?
I would just love to know if there is a rule to go off so that I can use it intuitively that anyone here is aware of?
Thema Mundi is an Hellenistic astrological teaching aid




Eric Francis notes:

...Thema Mundi is one of the ancient keys to astrology.

Keys lead to doors and doors lead to different places.
this is the beginning of an adventure....

Thema Mundi places Cancer as the '...natural first house...'

instead of Aries
....Cancer, sign of mothering

associates with the 1st, house of incarnation
where one comes into tangible form.


Aries is Thema Mundi 10th house of fiery initiative, career, fame, worldly expression.
Capricorn does not fit the outgoing initiative required of 10th.
Aries as the natural sign associated with 10th
helps us understand Aries Point, which seems closer in meaning to 10th
than to Ascendant.
Children are often conceived in 5th house
- overlaying the house of passionate sex
with the sign of mysteries of birth and death makes sense.
A fun romance, can involve you deeper than you planned....

Quote:

It is interesting, isn't it, that the elemental model doesn't match the percieved beginning of each season if we look at a seasonal calendar and base the first sign as the start of the calendar/zodiac
Quote:

I can see how the crossover between the beginning of the zodiac and the start of a new year/new growth in spring would or may have happened, but it still seems as though there is a very good reason why Cancer is the rising sign in the Thema, and all the ancients agreed that the first house is the sign containing the ASC. They were pretty smart, so you would think they would have noticed something as drastic as that where they placed the "natural" first house didn't match with the chart of the world?
Quote:

Cardan (several hundred years ago) was the first to suggest a reversal of signs for the Southern Hemisphere (then rather newly discovered)

But Manilius (14 AD) speculated a Southern Hemisphere to the Earth (vide "Astronomica") but did not feel that the order of signs, etc, be changed to account for this.

The idea of signs = seasons (in my opinion) is NOT the basis of the sequential order of signs; this has to do with the macroscosmic "circulation of the elements", and not upon what season exists in a particular location.

Just consider the "seasonal" allocations relative to the elements of the signs in the NORTHERN Hemisphere:

Spring equinox: all authors give the element of Spring as "warm and moist", ie, Air element: what's the sign (in the tropical zodiac)? Aries which = hot and dry and = Fire

Summer solstice: all authors give Fire (hot and dry) as the element of Summer; what's the sign? Cancer-cold and moist, ie Water (exact reverse of the seasonal element in the Norther Hemisphere)

Autumn equinox: all authors give cold and dry to the Autumn season, ie, Earth; what is the sign for the autumn equinox? Libra, warm and moist, = Air

Winter solstice: all authors give cold and moist for Winter, ie, Water; what is the sign of the winter solstice? Capricorn, which is cold and dry, = Earth.

...so even considering the Northern Hemisphere, the tropic signs (Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricron) do NOT match the elemental seasons, not AT ALL (elementally)
Obviously the signs and their sequence were NOT originally allocated based upon Northern Hemisphere seasonal considerations...
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Unread 05-27-2021, 07:06 PM
Clair Y Clair Y is offline
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
It seemed like he was outlining the basics to set up for the rest of his book, horary and natal astrology. Whether it's applicable to horary, I'm not sure. The aries=1st house seemed to be involved more w/ medical astrology

In any cases these old authors really needed editors lol.
I understand. Would I be right in thinking that William Lilly's cosignificators for the houses are mainly out of use and considered pretty much redundant in this sense? Or do you think there might be many traditional astrologers who use them?
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Unread 05-27-2021, 07:08 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikana View Post
A lof of Lillys things he had said are experimental. Some are confusing some are based on older theories but he never found any use for it.
Like buying mr b's house. He approached that chart in different methods. I think he uses natural planets as cosignificators but hierachy is skewed
House Ruler orAlmuten
Any dignified planet in the house
Natural ruler
Thats just my guess
Thanks, I see. So which do you tend to use and who do you trust?
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Unread 05-27-2021, 07:16 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Thema Mundi is an Hellenistic astrological teaching aid




Eric Francis notes:

...Thema Mundi is one of the ancient keys to astrology.

Keys lead to doors and doors lead to different places.
this is the beginning of an adventure....

Thema Mundi places Cancer as the '...natural first house...'

instead of Aries
....Cancer, sign of mothering

associates with the 1st, house of incarnation
where one comes into tangible form.


Aries is Thema Mundi 10th house of fiery initiative, career, fame, worldly expression.
Capricorn does not fit the outgoing initiative required of 10th.
Aries as the natural sign associated with 10th
helps us understand Aries Point, which seems closer in meaning to 10th
than to Ascendant.
Children are often conceived in 5th house
- overlaying the house of passionate sex
with the sign of mysteries of birth and death makes sense.
A fun romance, can involve you deeper than you planned....

I don't think it would make sense to use the temperaments of the four cardinal signs to describe the four seasons, being in the Northern Hemisphere. But I thought the temperaments were more to do with medical conditions than actual weather. I didn't realise people really made this correlation.

So basically, what you're saying is it's better in your opinion to use the thema mundi (which looks to be the opposite of Lilly's). In which case the Moon is the natural ruler of the 1st house.

I am starting to see that people tend to pick one over the other, rather than use both..
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Unread 05-27-2021, 08:14 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post
I understand. Would I be right in thinking that William Lilly's cosignificators for the houses are mainly out of use and considered pretty much redundant in this sense? Or do you think there might be many traditional astrologers who use them?
I think they can be used to add nuance in the reading.

In horary I've never seen Saturn being used as a natural house ruler for the 1st house, or Mars unless they were directly related to it through rulership or placement (or medical)

If you have example charts, maybe we can try to use it.
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Unread 05-27-2021, 08:16 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Also I haven't seen any convincing use of joys in natal or horary readings, unless they are being used to add dramatic flair to the reading.
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Unread 05-27-2021, 08:55 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

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Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
Also I haven't seen any convincing use of joys in natal or horary readings, unless they are being used to add dramatic flair to the reading.
I have myself, but most notably I have used the joys for an electional chart with good effect.
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Unread 05-27-2021, 10:18 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post


I don't think it would make sense to use the temperaments of the four cardinal signs to describe the four seasons, being in the Northern Hemisphere. But I thought the temperaments were more to do with medical conditions than actual weather. I didn't realise people really made this correlation.

So basically, what you're saying is it's better in your opinion to use the thema mundi (which looks to be the opposite of Lilly's). In which case the Moon is the natural ruler of the 1st house.

I am starting to see that people tend to pick one over the other, rather than use both..

THEMA MUNDI predates and precedes William Lilly
originally, astrologers prior to Lilly were THEMA MUNDI inspired
which as you highlighted

features Moon as "...natural ruler of 1st House..."




.
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  #12  
Unread 05-28-2021, 06:12 AM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post
Thanks, I see. So which do you tend to use and who do you trust?
Good question very good one!
I was pondering on this one

Let's say we are asking about 7th house matter

we have 3 planets
Lord of 7th
Almuten
planet in 7th house
natural ruler of the 7th house (sun for men just example)

1. does lord of 7th describe the person - if NO then move to nextpoint
2. almuten - if no move to the next one
3. planet in 7th - here where it gets interesting .. if a planet DOES NOT have a dignity of its own, do not use planet in 7th house as a ruler to represent 7th house
4. natural ruler - tends not to work well unless moon or asce ruler aspects it or if natural ruler applies to asce

I hope this makes some sense
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Unread 05-28-2021, 06:19 AM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
Also I haven't seen any convincing use of joys in natal or horary readings, unless they are being used to add dramatic flair to the reading.
Planets in joyful position is an accidental dignity
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Unread 05-28-2021, 08:26 AM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikana View Post
Good question very good one!
I was pondering on this one

Let's say we are asking about 7th house matter

we have 3 planets
Lord of 7th
Almuten
planet in 7th house
natural ruler of the 7th house (sun for men just example)

1. does lord of 7th describe the person - if NO then move to nextpoint
2. almuten - if no move to the next one
3. planet in 7th - here where it gets interesting .. if a planet DOES NOT have a dignity of its own, do not use planet in 7th house as a ruler to represent 7th house
4. natural ruler - tends not to work well unless moon or asce ruler aspects it or if natural ruler applies to asce

I hope this makes some sense
Yes it does thanks, I'm just getting to grips with what people generally tend to do with all this conflicting information.

For now, I think I'll just remember both the Thema Mundi and Lilly's natural rulers and see which works best for me from there, but I'll always be trying to figure out which works best and I'll likely want to choose one. Having all this conflicting stuff doesn't feel right, I'll be honest. I'm kind of glad you put them at number 4 saying natural rulers tend not to work well, although I did have an inkling to be fair.

Last edited by Clair Y; 05-28-2021 at 08:28 AM.
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Unread 05-28-2021, 01:12 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post
Yes it does thanks, I'm just getting to grips with what people generally tend to do with all this conflicting information.

For now, I think I'll just remember both the Thema Mundi and Lilly's natural rulers and see which works best for me from there, but I'll always be trying to figure out which works best and I'll likely want to choose one. Having all this conflicting stuff doesn't feel right, I'll be honest. I'm kind of glad you put them at number 4 saying natural rulers tend not to work well, although I did have an inkling to be fair.
my experience with natural rules is this
so let's say querent/quested have skin problem.
natural ruler of skin is Venus - it is positioned strong in essential dignity
but lord of 6th is afflicted by mars or some other planet.
Lord of the 6th would make more sense, right?

But sometimes natural ruler helps the question
I know it is insane
Let's say you lost a book. Where is the book?
asce ruler / moon are not aspecting lord of 2nd house
but they aspect merc natural ruler of books. guess what ... merc is your book.
Tik
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Unread 05-28-2021, 01:50 PM
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Re: William Lilly's cosignificators in practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post

Yes it does thanks, I'm just getting to grips with what people generally tend to do with all this conflicting information.

For now, I think I'll just remember both the Thema Mundi and Lilly's natural rulers and see which works best for me from there, but I'll always be trying to figure out which works best and I'll likely want to choose one. Having all this conflicting stuff doesn't feel right, I'll be honest. I'm kind of glad you put them at number 4 saying natural rulers tend not to work well, although I did have an inkling to be fair
.
One of the noticeable differences

between horary
and
natal work

is

that the planets in Horary
are not so much regarded as symbols of internal drives and emotions
but instead
as literal representatives of the events and characters in the client's life

Venus, for example, may be saying less about the principle of desire
than the actual object of desire.
Its placement can offer important physical descriptions
and behavioural characteristics
of another person represented by that planet.

The ability to pick up a horary chart
and gain direct, in-depth access to the details of a client's life
is a skill acquired through confident and thorough knowledge
of astrological symbolism.

Familiarity with each element of the horary craft
will allow the chart to paint its picture with greater fluidity and depth.
With experience it is possible to offer a very detailed description
of the background and present state of the situation
and to reliably assess from the future movements of the chart
where the situation is leading.

The first step towards this
and the most important part of horary judgement
is to correctly assign the appropriate planets
to the various characters and events in the question.
Once identified, we term these planets significators

because they signify the specific individuals or incidents
that are relevant to the question
.

An horary judgement should always focus
upon the condition and movement of the main significators
which are identified as follows:

Identifying Significators

  • The person who asks the question is called the querent.
  • The querent is always primarily signified by
  • the planet that rules the ascendant.
  • The condition of the 1st house, any planets in the 1st house
  • and the Moon will also help to describe the querent
  • and his or her circumstances.
  • The person or issue asked about is called the quesited.
  • It is described by the house that naturally governs that matter
  • and it is signified by the planet that rules the cusp of that house.
  • Again, you will want to consider any other planets
  • located in that house as offering further descriptive information
  • but you only have one main significator for the quesited
  • and that is the planetary ruler of the sign on the cusp.
  • The Moon is a general significator for the whole situation.
  • It may be helping to represent the querent
  • or describing surrounding circumstances
  • or it could be describing the movement of events
  • or deeply related issues
  • that may not be immediately apparent from the question.
  • It always demands some attention.
source: Deborah Houlding



.
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