WeCareALot
Well-known member
I never quite understood this part of astrology. What makes the angles and angular houses more important than other aspects of your chart? Why is the 1st house more important than say, the 3rd house?
Why are angles and angular houses important?
- Thread starter WeCareALot
- Start date
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
An article at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/begin8.html explains
QUOTE
'…Angular Houses are connected with relationships -
First with the self = 1st house, personal goals are reflected here.
7th = relationship with a 'significant other'
but also with people in a one to one relationship that reflects something back about us.
4th = relationship with family and roots
10th = relationship with the outside world of work and status.
4th/10th house axis is also reflective of the parental relationship.....'
Ascendant or cusp of 1st
IC or cusp of 4th
Descendant or cusp of 7th
MC or cusp of 10th
are the houses we call " The Angles"
WeCareALot
Well-known member
Hey JupiterAsc,
Thanks for the info but I still don't understand why relationships are more powerful than any other aspect of life. What is it about relating that makes it more powerful/important than values (house 2), thinking and learning (house 3), creativity and play (house 5), work and health (house 6), etc. etc.?
Thanks for the info but I still don't understand why relationships are more powerful than any other aspect of life. What is it about relating that makes it more powerful/important than values (house 2), thinking and learning (house 3), creativity and play (house 5), work and health (house 6), etc. etc.?
I know that many astrologer see that as significant. And in many circumstances it is. But many times it is not. I've seen charts where the angular houses have no power at all. IMO, it depends on the chart.
I hate blanket statements in astrology, because 90% of the time they are simply worthless.
The angular houses have been given most importance because of geometrical considerations-these geometrical considerations are also at the basis of the aspects used in astrology: for one of the best philosophical discussions of this issue (geometrical/mathematical basis of astrological concepts), see the early chapters of Robert Zoller's "The Arabic Parts"...
poyi
Premium Member
One reason may be the angular house began at axis though other astrologers use whole sign. Placidus specifically uses axis as the doors of 1st/7th AC/DC, 4th/10th IC/MC, at time with extreme longitude, you occasionally see MC/IC being at 3rd and 9th houses.
If we see 12th house as the seed in it pregermination stage, AC is the entry of life, sleeping in the soil, the seed breaking out into light, sprouting (eastern side of the chart), it governed the first breath inhaled by the infant himself instead of through the placenta cord (seed or egg before birth relaying on the internal nutrients).
2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th are Succedent houses, “Succedent” derives from the Latin succedens meaning "subsequent" or "succeeding".
You can see the action began at Angular house 1st house, it will be almost like where the growth hormone kicks in and it has it wave actions it maximized at first and slowly decreasing overtime until the next growth hormone kicking in. The following is a very generalize wave pattern of the growth hormone by age. You can see the maximum peak was at the beginning (in reality we have overlapping growth hormone, the following is only a single type, the overlapping hormone can be like the different growth hormone we have at the start of teenage, sexual hormones).
So if we see 1st house as the first stage of the life then the growing speed slowly decline until the next pattern of hormone kicks in like when a person going through fast growth during infancy then there is a period of childhood the growth is fast but still not significant as the 1st stage, we don't grow as fast, until teenage year. This is what I can come up with as the best description of my version of 1st to 3rd house.
4th house to 6th will be more like the teenage year from parental home to slowly breaking out, when you hits 7th house that is the mating time when partnership is the next stage of life you will actively seek actions to be with another person. From 7th to 9th that is the time of reaching to accomplish something in a public sense as well as independence.
Then from the final peak of life 10th you quickly decline into 12th house again a bit like the reverse of the 1st to 3rd. I often use tree to understand the life of the chart. From pregermanition, sprouting, growing deeper root (4th), then branches (7th), 10th the life reach it maturity and starts to flower. 11th the fruits it bears, from 11th to 12th is the rapid decline the season of Autumn to winter, losing leaves, the physical branches weaken and lost it glory, leaves and branches (structural decline in the bones and flesh) felt onto the soil and to become part of earth once again.
If you look at the graph, you can also see the decline of the later stage is much faster and sharper while in the middle section middle age, about 30 to 50 that would be like 7th to 10th relatively slow and major part of human life. Again just a very general explanation why angular are more powerful as they marks stages of critical part of human life.
If we see 12th house as the seed in it pregermination stage, AC is the entry of life, sleeping in the soil, the seed breaking out into light, sprouting (eastern side of the chart), it governed the first breath inhaled by the infant himself instead of through the placenta cord (seed or egg before birth relaying on the internal nutrients).
2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th are Succedent houses, “Succedent” derives from the Latin succedens meaning "subsequent" or "succeeding".
You can see the action began at Angular house 1st house, it will be almost like where the growth hormone kicks in and it has it wave actions it maximized at first and slowly decreasing overtime until the next growth hormone kicking in. The following is a very generalize wave pattern of the growth hormone by age. You can see the maximum peak was at the beginning (in reality we have overlapping growth hormone, the following is only a single type, the overlapping hormone can be like the different growth hormone we have at the start of teenage, sexual hormones).
So if we see 1st house as the first stage of the life then the growing speed slowly decline until the next pattern of hormone kicks in like when a person going through fast growth during infancy then there is a period of childhood the growth is fast but still not significant as the 1st stage, we don't grow as fast, until teenage year. This is what I can come up with as the best description of my version of 1st to 3rd house.
4th house to 6th will be more like the teenage year from parental home to slowly breaking out, when you hits 7th house that is the mating time when partnership is the next stage of life you will actively seek actions to be with another person. From 7th to 9th that is the time of reaching to accomplish something in a public sense as well as independence.
Then from the final peak of life 10th you quickly decline into 12th house again a bit like the reverse of the 1st to 3rd. I often use tree to understand the life of the chart. From pregermanition, sprouting, growing deeper root (4th), then branches (7th), 10th the life reach it maturity and starts to flower. 11th the fruits it bears, from 11th to 12th is the rapid decline the season of Autumn to winter, losing leaves, the physical branches weaken and lost it glory, leaves and branches (structural decline in the bones and flesh) felt onto the soil and to become part of earth once again.
If you look at the graph, you can also see the decline of the later stage is much faster and sharper while in the middle section middle age, about 30 to 50 that would be like 7th to 10th relatively slow and major part of human life. Again just a very general explanation why angular are more powerful as they marks stages of critical part of human life.
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Cypocryphy
Well-known member
My theory is different than others and is based on simple astronomical principles, couched in theory.
To paraphrase, you ask why are the angles more important than other factors.
The bases for judging the angles as prime points of power stems from how the ancients viewed the Sun. The Sun was viewed as the king of all life, the master of man. It defines the ecliptic, which the zodiac circumscribes. The planets move along the ecliptic, with various levels of astronomical latitude. The Sun, however, does not experience declination along the ecliptic.
The midheaven, potentially the strongest point in a chart, is regarded as a prime point based on geometrical principals and atmospheric conditions. As the Sun rises, it forms an oblique angle to Earth, which is an inefficient angle to discharge solar ejections, but when it reaches its zenith, the Sun is perpendicular to your position, closer to you than it had been previously, as close as it will ever be. Secondly, from this point, there is less ozone to deter the Sun's radiation from impacting you. This is why the hottest time of the day is around noon. The energy is strongest at that point. Of course, the day is actually hotter later on, but that is simply because the Earth has been absorbing and storing the Sun's radiation. But the Sun actually is hotter at noon than any other day. The ancients must have quickly come to an understanding that planets too must have a greater effect when perpendicular to the Earth.
In the case of planets rising, you have the situation where the skys have enjoyed a respite from the normal condition of being filled with radiation, with its being night time. As soon as the Sun rises, however, a dramatic and drastic change occurs in the atmosphere. That point of extreme change is why it is considered to have such a significant impact on us. And because of this solar situation during dawn and twilight, you have this principal transferred and applied to the operations of the other planets, stars and all the other satellites used for interpretation.
To paraphrase, you ask why are the angles more important than other factors.
The bases for judging the angles as prime points of power stems from how the ancients viewed the Sun. The Sun was viewed as the king of all life, the master of man. It defines the ecliptic, which the zodiac circumscribes. The planets move along the ecliptic, with various levels of astronomical latitude. The Sun, however, does not experience declination along the ecliptic.
The midheaven, potentially the strongest point in a chart, is regarded as a prime point based on geometrical principals and atmospheric conditions. As the Sun rises, it forms an oblique angle to Earth, which is an inefficient angle to discharge solar ejections, but when it reaches its zenith, the Sun is perpendicular to your position, closer to you than it had been previously, as close as it will ever be. Secondly, from this point, there is less ozone to deter the Sun's radiation from impacting you. This is why the hottest time of the day is around noon. The energy is strongest at that point. Of course, the day is actually hotter later on, but that is simply because the Earth has been absorbing and storing the Sun's radiation. But the Sun actually is hotter at noon than any other day. The ancients must have quickly come to an understanding that planets too must have a greater effect when perpendicular to the Earth.
In the case of planets rising, you have the situation where the skys have enjoyed a respite from the normal condition of being filled with radiation, with its being night time. As soon as the Sun rises, however, a dramatic and drastic change occurs in the atmosphere. That point of extreme change is why it is considered to have such a significant impact on us. And because of this solar situation during dawn and twilight, you have this principal transferred and applied to the operations of the other planets, stars and all the other satellites used for interpretation.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Ascendant is entirely dependent on an accurate time of birth and is crucial in Horoscopic astrology
a correct Ascendant DETERMINES a correct Descendant, as well as a correct MC/IC axis
and in fact the Ascendant determines the entire natal chart.
The First House relates to the physical appearance and describes the individual's physical appearance.
It's important that the First House
ACCURATELY
QUOTE
'….describes the individual's physical appearance as well as the individual's Life, vitality and health.
Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.
Older sources note 1st House's influence upon the intellect, the way the mind works, and speech.....'
SIGNIFICATIONS OF THE FIRST HOUSE http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
4th house of Family and roots is important BECAUSE
without physical parents/ancestral origins
the individual would have had no physical body
and could not have been born into the physical world at all.
7th house of relationship indicates relationships of all kinds
including business/legal partnerships
and whether the individual is likely to marry or not
- and successful marriage and business partnerships are considered issues of crucial importance to an individual.
10th house shows the individual's status in life
whether the individual is likely to be famous, well known
have a successful career
have influence in the world
OR NONE OF THOSE
- and that's considered important.
WeCareALot
Well-known member
Hmm, I don't know. This all still sounds kind of arbitrary to me. I mean, I sort of understand why the MC might be the most important point in the chart, but not so much the other angles. And in general, I see how the ASC is important since it partially determines what houses the other planets fall in but I still don't see how that makes planets in these houses powerful. Power...to do what?
poyi
Premium Member
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miquar
Well-known member
Hi WeCareAlot. In astrology we are always dealing with cycles. Each cycle consists of a recurring sequence of stages, and what distinguishes one stage from the next is the state of play between two opposing forces or trends. For example in the seasonal cycle, there is a trend towards longer days and a trend towards longer nights, and emphasis shifts between these two trends throughout the year.
Each cycle has four critical points - points at which the relationship between the opposing trends undergoes a fundamental change. Using the example of the seasonal cycle again, at the equinoxes, the emphasis shifts from one trend to the other following a moment of balance between them. At the solsitices, the 'polar tide' changes direction as one of the trends reaches its peak and begins to weaken, as the other trend reaches its weakest point and begins to strengthen.
Just as celestial cycles involve the interplay of polar opposites, so do the cycles of unfoldment which occur in the experiential life of a human being. And of course these two kinds of cycles reflect one another, and when we study this phenomenon we call it astrology.
In the house cycle, the polarities are 'above the horizon' and 'below the horizon'. As the body rises above the horizon or sets below the horizon, these two polarities are equal, and as the body crosses the celestial meridian of the observer above or below the horizon, one polarity peaks and begins to wane. So the angles of the birth chart mark the degrees of the zodiac which are at a critical point in the house cycle.
Because celestial bodies other than the Sun are not on the ecliptic (i.e. zodiac wheel) the astrological chart doesn't always give a very accurate impression of where the body is in relation to the angles, or the other house cusps, though normally it is fairly accurate.
The zodiacal positions of the angles is shown to be very significant in event charts, for example explosions, crashes, etc, for which an accurate time is usually available. This is especially so when midpoints are used as part of the analysis. The critical points in the aspect cycle are the conjunction, square and opposition aspects, which are inclined to bring about manifest events - these are the aspects derived from the division of the circle by 4, this being the number of manifestation. Critical points in general share this quality, and so we would expect the angles to show which energies in the chart would manifest obviously in the world.
As for the angular houses, it seems that in astrology we deal with points and also with segments. A sign or a house, or a stage of the lunation cycle, is a segment. An aspect is a point, even though we allow it an orb of inexactitude. In the lunation cycle, we see that the conjunction of the Sun and Moon is followed by a period of the lunation cycle in which the qualities of the New Moon are evident throughout. Similarly, with the houses, the angular houses are segments which share the quality of the angle with which they begin.
Thus the angular houses, while not necessarily more powerful, are indicative of energies which manifest obviously in the world - experiences of a particularly vivid and obvious nature.
Hope this gets you closer to the understanding you're looking for.
Each cycle has four critical points - points at which the relationship between the opposing trends undergoes a fundamental change. Using the example of the seasonal cycle again, at the equinoxes, the emphasis shifts from one trend to the other following a moment of balance between them. At the solsitices, the 'polar tide' changes direction as one of the trends reaches its peak and begins to weaken, as the other trend reaches its weakest point and begins to strengthen.
Just as celestial cycles involve the interplay of polar opposites, so do the cycles of unfoldment which occur in the experiential life of a human being. And of course these two kinds of cycles reflect one another, and when we study this phenomenon we call it astrology.
In the house cycle, the polarities are 'above the horizon' and 'below the horizon'. As the body rises above the horizon or sets below the horizon, these two polarities are equal, and as the body crosses the celestial meridian of the observer above or below the horizon, one polarity peaks and begins to wane. So the angles of the birth chart mark the degrees of the zodiac which are at a critical point in the house cycle.
Because celestial bodies other than the Sun are not on the ecliptic (i.e. zodiac wheel) the astrological chart doesn't always give a very accurate impression of where the body is in relation to the angles, or the other house cusps, though normally it is fairly accurate.
The zodiacal positions of the angles is shown to be very significant in event charts, for example explosions, crashes, etc, for which an accurate time is usually available. This is especially so when midpoints are used as part of the analysis. The critical points in the aspect cycle are the conjunction, square and opposition aspects, which are inclined to bring about manifest events - these are the aspects derived from the division of the circle by 4, this being the number of manifestation. Critical points in general share this quality, and so we would expect the angles to show which energies in the chart would manifest obviously in the world.
As for the angular houses, it seems that in astrology we deal with points and also with segments. A sign or a house, or a stage of the lunation cycle, is a segment. An aspect is a point, even though we allow it an orb of inexactitude. In the lunation cycle, we see that the conjunction of the Sun and Moon is followed by a period of the lunation cycle in which the qualities of the New Moon are evident throughout. Similarly, with the houses, the angular houses are segments which share the quality of the angle with which they begin.
Thus the angular houses, while not necessarily more powerful, are indicative of energies which manifest obviously in the world - experiences of a particularly vivid and obvious nature.
Hope this gets you closer to the understanding you're looking for.
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The Angles are Turning Points.
In the East, at the Ascendant, the sky rises, moves from the Invisible Realm (the unconscious) to the Visible.
At the Midheaven, the sky stops rising and turns to its descension. What was going up begins to go down.
The Descendant and Nadir feature the opposing motions.
The Angles correspond to the zodiacal turning points...0 Aries, 0 Capricorn, 0 Libra,0 Cancer.....Equinoxes and Solstices.
The Nodes of the Moon have a similar structure, the North and South nodes corresponding to the equinoxes, the Bendings to the solsticial points.
We also see a similarity in the phases of the Moon: New, First Quarter, Full, Last Quarter.
The Angles are "mundane." They relate directly to "events on Earth." They tie the sky to our mundane (sub-lunar) world. This is why they are considered to be so critical in some methods of prediction. The "celestial rays" strike Earth with maximum impact through these points (turning points, again, reflect turning points in one's life.)
There are other symbolic meanings that apply to the Angles that also enhance their importance... When a planet is at the Midheaven (MC) it is as high as it will go in the sky (the MC is where the planets stop rising and begin their descent), so we can say of a planet located there that "It stands above all else." The other Angles carry similar symbolic meanings related to their characteristics. The Ascendant is the Point of All Beginnings, because it is here that the sky becomes manifest to our senses and "comes into beng." It is symbolic of, and represents literally, the First Breath.
Turning Points of various kinds are used in everyday life as critical points, points we measure to or from. The freezing point of water is Zero Celsius (liquid water turns to ice or vice-versa), the boiling point 100 (ditto liquid to vapor)... Changes of state or condition, Turning points.
In modern science, it is a fundamental premise that "The beginning of anything detemines its final outcome."
Hence the importance of the Ascendant in astrology.
There are many other perspectives that bring the Angles to importance. Some of them have been described above.
In order to develop "the mind of the astrologer" (vital to interpreting the horoscope) it is necessary to think about such things...the real nature of something referred to its many symbolic meanings. I read an article earlier tonight where an astrologer goes to a movie in which a king of the desert captures two knights. One he invites into his tent, the other he does not. He protects the one, the other he kills. The astrologer's mind saw the analogy between this movie scene and the astrological "reception." The mind not trained in astrological thinking would probably never make that kind of connection (poets and mathematicians might.)
Astrology is based on analogies of this sort. Capricorn in reality corresponds to winter. Winter has certain characteristics or qualities, and through the use of analogy, the "meanings" of Capricorn are established. Pluto is the only planet of the ten that touches each and every degree of the zodiac three times in its passage along its orbit. This can be interpreted as "brooding, mulling over...", which can be expanded into "obsession." The symbolic meaning derives from the facts, through analogy.
In the East, at the Ascendant, the sky rises, moves from the Invisible Realm (the unconscious) to the Visible.
At the Midheaven, the sky stops rising and turns to its descension. What was going up begins to go down.
The Descendant and Nadir feature the opposing motions.
The Angles correspond to the zodiacal turning points...0 Aries, 0 Capricorn, 0 Libra,0 Cancer.....Equinoxes and Solstices.
The Nodes of the Moon have a similar structure, the North and South nodes corresponding to the equinoxes, the Bendings to the solsticial points.
We also see a similarity in the phases of the Moon: New, First Quarter, Full, Last Quarter.
The Angles are "mundane." They relate directly to "events on Earth." They tie the sky to our mundane (sub-lunar) world. This is why they are considered to be so critical in some methods of prediction. The "celestial rays" strike Earth with maximum impact through these points (turning points, again, reflect turning points in one's life.)
There are other symbolic meanings that apply to the Angles that also enhance their importance... When a planet is at the Midheaven (MC) it is as high as it will go in the sky (the MC is where the planets stop rising and begin their descent), so we can say of a planet located there that "It stands above all else." The other Angles carry similar symbolic meanings related to their characteristics. The Ascendant is the Point of All Beginnings, because it is here that the sky becomes manifest to our senses and "comes into beng." It is symbolic of, and represents literally, the First Breath.
Turning Points of various kinds are used in everyday life as critical points, points we measure to or from. The freezing point of water is Zero Celsius (liquid water turns to ice or vice-versa), the boiling point 100 (ditto liquid to vapor)... Changes of state or condition, Turning points.
In modern science, it is a fundamental premise that "The beginning of anything detemines its final outcome."
Hence the importance of the Ascendant in astrology.
There are many other perspectives that bring the Angles to importance. Some of them have been described above.
In order to develop "the mind of the astrologer" (vital to interpreting the horoscope) it is necessary to think about such things...the real nature of something referred to its many symbolic meanings. I read an article earlier tonight where an astrologer goes to a movie in which a king of the desert captures two knights. One he invites into his tent, the other he does not. He protects the one, the other he kills. The astrologer's mind saw the analogy between this movie scene and the astrological "reception." The mind not trained in astrological thinking would probably never make that kind of connection (poets and mathematicians might.)
Astrology is based on analogies of this sort. Capricorn in reality corresponds to winter. Winter has certain characteristics or qualities, and through the use of analogy, the "meanings" of Capricorn are established. Pluto is the only planet of the ten that touches each and every degree of the zodiac three times in its passage along its orbit. This can be interpreted as "brooding, mulling over...", which can be expanded into "obsession." The symbolic meaning derives from the facts, through analogy.
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WeCareALot
Well-known member
Thanks for the replies everyone. So in general, it sounds like the angles are important for being turning/anchoring points and points of visibility. That makes a bit more sense! I suppose I was wondering why I kept reading that angles are important because they signify major relationships in one's life: ascendant is other people's first reaction, IC is relationship to family and tradition, descendant is one-on-one relationships, and the MC is your relationship to the public/world at large--an explanation which seemed to arbitrarily equate relationships with power.
Let me give you an alternative point of view based on extensive research. This is one I've explained before many times, so the long posters here should move on.
In the 1920-1950 time period, a group called the Church of Light in Loa Angeles CA, had thousand of students around the world. They took it as a premise that that all the stuff of traditional astrology showing debilities and dignities, etc, and the angular positions etc all may have meaning in a chart, but that nobody knew for sure.
So they made up this long questionnaire to ask people about their lives, and then they made their thousands of students around the world do charts for people and also make them answer the questionnaire. They compared the answers to the questionnaire with the chart data. They did this for 30 years using more than 30,000 charts total.
They developed a statistical method for determining the power of the planets(plus the ASC and MH), the houses, the signs, and the aspects in the chart. The only problem was that the calculations while not anything more than simple arithmetic, took about 12 tedious hours to do for each chart. So no one knew about the system until someone made a computer program for it about 1992.
I've used the system(not available with three difference computer software programs---one free, one inexpensive,and one horribly expensive) for a lot of years. I've found it to be spot on deadly accurate.
In the 1920-1950 time period, a group called the Church of Light in Loa Angeles CA, had thousand of students around the world. They took it as a premise that that all the stuff of traditional astrology showing debilities and dignities, etc, and the angular positions etc all may have meaning in a chart, but that nobody knew for sure.
So they made up this long questionnaire to ask people about their lives, and then they made their thousands of students around the world do charts for people and also make them answer the questionnaire. They compared the answers to the questionnaire with the chart data. They did this for 30 years using more than 30,000 charts total.
They developed a statistical method for determining the power of the planets(plus the ASC and MH), the houses, the signs, and the aspects in the chart. The only problem was that the calculations while not anything more than simple arithmetic, took about 12 tedious hours to do for each chart. So no one knew about the system until someone made a computer program for it about 1992.
I've used the system(not available with three difference computer software programs---one free, one inexpensive,and one horribly expensive) for a lot of years. I've found it to be spot on deadly accurate.
Graybeard, please PM me your birth data? I'll give you a summary natally, but at our age, it will be the stressed shown in the tertiary and minor progessed charts that will show the challenges we experience.
Most of the stuff from our birth chart challenges we've already worked through years ago, though the tendencies and abilities of course are still there.
Z
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
12 Astrological houses are divided into 4 Angular, 4 Succedent and 4 Cadent Houses
Angular Houses are known as “pivots”
because the Angular Houses work like hinges
around which everything revolves.
'.....A Succedent House is a house between worlds that FUNCTIONS TO SUPPORT the preceding Angular House. Succedent houses are those through which a Cadent House is entered.
Cadent Houses have the function of DESTROYING the previous Succedent House.
A Cadent House is used as a bridge to the next Angular House.....' Robert Schmidt
Project Hindsighthttp://www.projecthindsight.com/articles/index.html
HELLENISTIC NATAL ASTROLOGY COURSE - PART ONE http://www.projecthindsight.com/
mdinaz
Well-known member
Holy cow, I'll say. The one I saw was $2200, and came with a very wordy license. I can see my future with that and I don't need software to do it.