Trying to understand angles of chart

Osamenor said:

That makes sense. I actually hadn't heard that before.

But do the outer planets not receive, only give? That's a subject for another thread, I think. I personally don't have an opinion on that either way at this point, just think it's worth discussing.


I don't dislike that idea, it's just an idea I didn't know about.

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Really? I brought it up in a previous thread and I think you kind of dismissed it. But yeah, it's probably a matter for another thread.

Osamenor said:

Yes, although if your cat isn't the walk up to strangers and role over kind, demanding attention from you is reflective of a relationship with you. And if the cat favors you over other members of the family, especially when it's lived with the others longer, that says something right there.

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I don't know if she favors me but she certainly does like to bother me.

waybread said:

Graay ghost, if people seem to like you and want to be around you, it's OK to accept it as something nice that comes around. Especially if you like them, as well.

The other thing about not confusing chart angles with other chart placements, is that you have this great sun-Venus in Cancer, which is probably part of your attraction. But its opposed by Neptune-Uranus, which means that your identity is ongoingly under assault. Neptune opposite sun can make it very hard to sustain a consistent self image, because Neptune tends to dissolve what it touches.

Uranus can be very disruptive. Just when you think you know who you are, Uranus says, "Not that!" But its real purpose is liberation from restricting and needless self-limitations.

Pluto in Scorpio is also domiciled in your chart.

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What's so great about Sun and Venus in Cancer? I kind of got the impression that they weren't that great placements.

I'm not really allowed to have a self-image, I don't think. I look at things I wrote a week ago and they seem completely foreign. Much of what I've read Sun Opp Neptune kept warning and warning that "drugs are bad! this is an addictive personality! drugs are bad!" but like, I've tried drugs. They're incredibly overrated and don't really do anything for me. :/

I am aware that Pluto is domiciled but I've kind of thrown that fact out because pluto stays in signs for so long that I'm not sure it really matters to an individual. That it's on the Descendant is probably important, but there's not much on that aside from the abuse/abuser dynamic.

graay ghost said:

Waybread, I will give a longer response later but this is what I have to say:

Do you understand "accomplishment" without fulfillment? That you can do all these things, have all these skills, have all this patience, etc, and feel none of it and think none of it is important? Because it doesn't do anything, really. It's a badge or something that people can comment on but it doesn't get you things you really want.

I don't know if that sounds "Saturnine" at all. I do not identify with all this stuff I've done at all. It's mechanical. And people appreciate the mechanics but honestly I could be walking around without a head and I'm sure it wouldn't make much difference.

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Yes, of course I understand "'accomplishment' without fulfillment." Big duh-uh for me there, Graay ghost. Been there, done that. So don't go down that road. Follow what does give you a sense of fulfillment.

If you can't identify what vocation you would find fulfilling now, then there is nonetheless value in being helpful to other people

Speaking of the MC, in your heart of hearts, what would you truly love to do?

Incidentally, pay special attention to transits to your vertex. It works like another descendant, with the difference that it seems to relate to life-changing "fateful encounters" with an event or other person. Sometimes we don't know what to do with our lives until fate gives us a kick in the pants. Try to expose yourself to new circumstances and people, if your current life feels too limiting.

Aphorism: "you either have what you want in life, or the reasons why not."

As you learn more astrology, you can decide whether you wish to go more modern (which is what I do,) traditional western, or Vedic. Although they overlap, you'll find different methods and perspectives.

Here's the thing with Neptune opposite sun. You may never develop a clear sense of identity! But your horoscope will offer you a lot of compensation. I have Neptune in the first house, which has much the same problem. I learned that I can have a decently happy and helpful life without a strong, clear sense of self.

The kicker with a grand trine is that life can actually go well enough for you, and create sufficient stasis, that you may forego the new opportunity, the degree, the special training. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking.

People with sun conjunct Venus generally come across as attractive to other people. Trust me, it beats the alternative.

waybread said:

Yes, of course I understand "'accomplishment' without fulfillment." Big duh-uh for me there, Graay ghost. Been there, done that. So don't go down that road. Follow what does give you a sense of fulfillment.

If you can't identify what vocation you would find fulfilling now, then there is nonetheless value in being helpful to other people

Speaking of the MC, in your heart of hearts, what would you truly love to do?

Incidentally, pay special attention to transits to your vertex. It works like another descendant, with the difference that it seems to relate to life-changing "fateful encounters" with an event or other person.

Try to expose yourself to new circumstances and people, if your current life feels too limiting.

Aphorism: "you either have what you want in life, or the reasons why not."

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My vertex is something like 17 Libra. There's nothing going on there for a while, I understand.

It is hard to say what I'd like to do. I do lots and lots of things, but there is always this undercurrent of "if you like to do it and try to turn it into a profession, then you won't like it anymore." It probably sounds kind of petty but like the difference between loving to do something and hating it is not what the actual thing is but rather whether it was my idea in the first place.

Like, let's say I'm a good writer. I can write essays and articles and stuff until the cows come home but if it's just to pay for room and board, it's a total pain. But then I will also write hundreds of thousands of words on my own in the form of, well, these text posts, fiction, journaling, whatever, every year, and not really think much of the effort going into it. I may like to cook, but cooking because other people tell me to and want specific things sounds horrible. It is pretty much impossible for me to take pride in things other people tell me to do. But, I guess, doing what other people tell you to do is most of life.

I don't think I come across as "attractive." Maybe there's some kind of charm or something that I'm not catching onto there but I am definitely not conventionally attractive.

Osamenor said:

That's still not the question I asked. I know planets in the 10th express themselves in that arena. What I was asking was how the influence of planets in the tenth (or conjunct the MC from the ninth) compares to the influence of the 10th house ruler, if the ruler is not one of those planets in or conjunct the 10th house. For example, I have Uranus conjunct the MC on the tenth house side, in Libra. Venus is my tenth house ruler, but it's not in or near the tenth house, it's in the eighth, in Virgo. So which is the greater influence--Uranus or Venus? Or do they both have equal influence?

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I should also add that measuring planetary strength is more important in traditional western astrology, with its essential and accidental dignities, than it is in modern astrology.

I guess my answer would be "none of the above," because both Uranus and Venus are disposited by a domiciled Mercury in its own sign of Virgo. You also have a domiciled sun in Leo. Your 8th house is quite the powerhouse in your chart. But it is under some strain with that moon-Neptune square.

Your angular and most elevated planet Uranus is also a power point, however, so ultimately I would see it as stronger than your Venus retrograde. Uranus is the modern ruler of astrology (Mercury is the traditional ruler) so you do find astrologers (both professional and amateur) with this placement. (I've got Uranus conjunct my MC.) As you've probably learned, however, you can have one or more of several outcomes:

1. a lot of disruption in your professional life
2. you develop a public image as an iconoclast
3. you need a lot of change and diversity within your job
4. you have a Uranian type of career
5. you have suddenly gotten and lost jobs
6. you experience work-home conflicts (because Uranus opposes your IC)

Some of us lucky ones also have Uranus conjunct MC square our AC/DC axis--happily yours forms a sextile to your AC.

graay ghost said:

My vertex is something like 17 Libra. There's nothing going on there for a while, I understand.

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The sun, Mercury, and Venus will move into Libra this fall. Natally, your old friend Neptune squares your vertex.

It is hard to say what I'd like to do. I do lots and lots of things, but there is always this undercurrent of "if you like to do it and try to turn it into a profession, then you won't like it anymore." It probably sounds kind of petty but like the difference between loving to do something and hating it is not what the actual thing is but rather whether it was my idea in the first place.

Like, let's say I'm a good writer. I can write essays and articles and stuff until the cows come home but if it's just to pay for room and board, it's a total pain. But then I will also write hundreds of thousands of words on my own in the form of, well, these text posts, fiction, journaling, whatever, every year, and not really think much of the effort going into it. I may like to cook, but cooking because other people tell me to and want specific things sounds horrible. It is pretty much impossible for me to take pride in things other people tell me to do. But, I guess, doing what other people tell you to do is most of life.

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Well, it's a good chunk of life. You may consider some way to be self-employed, but then you are still responsible to your clients. I think it's more intelligent to figure out what exactly is the source of your disliking being told what to do, so that you can gain some mastery over it. At some point, most of us need to earn a living, whether it is our vocation in life or more of a 6th or 2nd house matter.

Other people telling you what to do, to me sounds a lot like an authoritarian Saturn. If you like to journal, you might construct a dialogue with the old man. You've also got that Saturnian moon in Capricorn, so he's got a lot to do with your feelings about things.

Then with Mars in Taurus rising, once you set on a particular course of action, you may be unwilling to rethink it. Possibly (Mars square Mercury) you resort to criticizing people who try to get you to change. Yet if you are on a good plan of action, you should have a tremendous ability to stay the course.

The third house (communication, thought, short-distance travel, siblings, neighbours) is where you feel most like yourself. And for many people, hobbies or leisure activities, family, or in one's partnership is where they feel most like themselves: not in their profession. It's a sun kind of thing.

I don't think I come across as "attractive." Maybe there's some kind of charm or something that I'm not catching onto there but I am definitely not conventionally attractive.

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How you come across to others at least initially is an ascendant/first house matter. Some "attractive" people are not conventionally good-looking at all. (I. e., people who "attract" others.) They can be facially un-favoured or overweight. Yet people seem to like them. Sun-Venus trine Pluto can even have a magnetic quality.

waybread said:

The sun, Mercury, and Venus will move into Libra this fall. Natally, your old friend Neptune squares your vertex.



Well, it's a good chunk of life. You may consider some way to be self-employed, but then you are still responsible to your clients. I think it's more intelligent to figure out what exactly is the source of your disliking being told what to do, so that you can gain some mastery over it. At some point, most of us need to earn a living, whether it is our vocation in life or more of a 6th or 2nd house matter.

Other people telling you what to do, to me sounds a lot like an authoritarian Saturn. If you like to journal, you might construct a dialogue with the old man. You've also got that Saturnian moon in Capricorn, so he's got a lot to do with your feelings about things.

Then with Mars in Taurus rising, once you set on a particular course of action, you may be unwilling to rethink it. Possibly (Mars square Mercury) you resort to criticizing people who try to get you to change. Yet if you are on a good plan of action, you should have a tremendous ability to stay the course.

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Like, I think about 85% of it is that I really don't like selling things. The other 15% is that with a lot of menial stuff, people are really unappreciative.

Like, I don't know. The best job I've ever had was earlier this year, a temp job in the fraud department of a small bank. I really liked it on one hand because most of the work was really repetitive so I listened to a lot of audiobooks. On the other hand, like, fraud is a sensitive issue for people and banks and happens an awful lot and a lot of people don't really understand it. Most people when they say they want "meaning" in work end up in like nursing or teaching but I honestly do not have the stomach for that. Protecting other people's money, though? I can do that. What I'm doing now is programming for a company, which is somewhat interesting in itself, but yes, it's a company that's based on selling stuff that I neither know nor care much about. Like maybe I could learn to like the stuff that we're selling, but I don't know.

It might be more of a wanting to do something that's important thing. If it was my idea in the first place, of course it's important. But I'm not totally averse to picking up things that other people think are important if I can agree they're important.

waybread said:

The third house (communication, thought, short-distance travel, siblings, neighbours) is where you feel most like yourself. And for many people, hobbies or leisure activities, family, or in one's partnership is where they feel most like themselves: not in their profession. It's a sun kind of thing.

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This kind of sounds like the answer to my original question. This makes it sound like not relating to their profession is more of a matter of sun, and not an inherent matter of angles or something like that.

The lucky ones have a seamless and constructive relationship between their MC/10th house and sun. The rest of us have to work at it-- or make do.

But I hope you will seriously keep pushing your own comments. OK, so you haven't found meaningful work yet. But there are thousands of job descriptions out there! If you enjoy data-gathering and organizing, maybe you could undertake a serious search of what's out there, from accounting to zoo-keeping. If you are able to return to school should you need more education for your ideal job, you might enjoy university life.

Then with your north node of personal growth conjunct your moon-- maybe your life shouldn't be about how you feel about something. Feelings (moon) are always subject to change, so we have to look beyond them.

Saturn teaches us lessons that we don't much like: hard work, patience, persistence, deferred gratification, getting by on very little. This doesn't sound like a lot of fun, but they are just crucial for getting along in life.

waybread said:

The lucky ones have a seamless and constructive relationship between their MC/10th house and sun. The rest of us have to work at it-- or make do.

But I hope you will seriously keep pushing your own comments. OK, so you haven't found meaningful work yet. But there are thousands of job descriptions out there! If you enjoy data-gathering and organizing, maybe you could undertake a serious search of what's out there, from accounting to zoo-keeping. If you are able to return to school should you need more education for your ideal job, you might enjoy university life.

Then with your north node of personal growth conjunct your moon-- maybe your life shouldn't be about how you feel about something. Feelings (moon) are always subject to change, so we have to look beyond them.

Saturn teaches us lessons that we don't much like: hard work, patience, persistence, deferred gratification, getting by on very little. This doesn't sound like a lot of fun, but they are just crucial for getting along in life.

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I've been trying to ignore how I feel about stuff all my life. That's how I got into this situation in the first place. It is very easy to do all the right things and still remain mysteriously unhappy. I mean, maybe not for everyone, but that's exactly what happened here.

See, this is the thing. It's the thing in most of astrology stuff I've read. There is so, so much "you're the problem, so change yourself, be patient, more yielding, blah blah blah." Everyone seems to have bad things to say about them, but these things are being said to a Taurus Rising, Cancer Sun, Capricorn Moon. Meaning, those things were already done and proven to not work, which means that the situation calls for something else. There is a definite underlying fear of upsetting the status quo in these descriptions. I know about fearing upsetting the status quo. I live it. But sometimes it needs to be done.

graay ghost said:

See, this is the thing. It's the thing in most of astrology stuff I've read. There is so, so much "you're the problem, so change yourself, be patient, more yielding, blah blah blah." Everyone seems to have bad things to say about them, but these things are being said to a Taurus Rising, Cancer Sun, Capricorn Moon. Meaning, those things were already done and proven to not work, which means that the situation calls for something else. There is a definite underlying fear of upsetting the status quo in these descriptions. I know about fearing upsetting the status quo. I live it. But sometimes it needs to be done.

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Read some traditional stuff. It's not always your fault. Sometimes bad things happen, and in trad, humans aren't considered all-powerful. We can't prevent every tragedy, but I would think that looking at the world will tell you that.

Saturn on the MC will give you a career.

Despite what society tells you, what you do for a profession, it's not you, or it doesn't have to be.

Try to find the areas in your chart where things flow, where there isn't a lot of friction. That's where you can find some happiness. Waybread made a good suggestion about gathering data and administration for Saturn on MC. If you enjoyed working in fraud prevention or investigation, that or similar work could be good for you. If you're one of those people for whom your work isn't 'you', then don't take it to heart when people/the world tell you it is.

Find what makes you happy and find a work that you don't find unbearable. That's the best way to go about it.

waybread said:

Then with your north node of personal growth conjunct your moon-- maybe your life shouldn't be about how you feel about something. Feelings (moon) are always subject to change, so we have to look beyond them.

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And here's what I totally do not understand about the astrological moon. There is so much "changeable" and "mysterious" and "irrational" about it. But... this is pretty silly. Because the oldest lunar calendar is 10,000 years old, so humans have understood the moon's pattern for at least 10,000 years. The moon might look different day to day, but it is nothing if not predictable.

If you feel horrible periodically but consistently, that is absolutely not something that should be ignored and stuffed down and denied, even though doing all those things seems to be conventional wisdom.

graay ghost said:

And here's what I totally do not understand about the astrological moon.
There is so much "changeable" and "mysterious" and "irrational" about it.
But... this is pretty silly.
Because the oldest lunar calendar is 10,000 years old,
so humans have understood the moon's pattern for at least 10,000 years.
The moon might look different day to day,
but it is nothing if not predictable.

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Moon is the fastest moving planet
and so
Moon is a significator for change

everything is transient
and everything changes/is changeable

however
keep in mind that
change IS predictable
caterpillars change into butterflies

and for example
The Farmer's Almanack lists monthly Moon Phases
and advises the best time to plant different kinds of crops
dependent on the phase of the Moon
of course farmers have been familiar with this knowledge for thousands of years http://www.almanac.com/

graay ghost said:

If you feel horrible periodically but consistently,
that is absolutely not something that should be ignored and stuffed down and denied,
even though doing all those things seems to be conventional wisdom.

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Most people "feel horrible periodically but consistently"
and the natal Moon and/or transiting Moon aspects to natal planets
is one of the keys to solving the "mystery"

The real question is if an employer will ruin me for trying to leave/leaving because I'm too necessary for them.

graay ghost said:

The real question is if an employer will ruin me for trying to leave/leaving because I'm too necessary for them.

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That's a question horary astrologers can best answer
if interested, then check out Career Related Horary Questions http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=44

HORARY RULES http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/faq.php?faq=horary#faq_horary_astrology_boards

graay ghost said:

Really? I brought it up in a previous thread and I think you kind of dismissed it. But yeah, it's probably a matter for another thread.

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I had to rack my brains to remember when we might have discussed that idea and what I might have said that sounded like dismissal! Are you talking about this thread?

The way I remember it, we were talking about planets in aspect in the natal chart. We definitely weren't discussing dispositors, which is why I said that idea didn't sound like anything I'd heard. Seems to me the discussion was on how planetary aspects play out between generational, social, and personal planets, which I see as a different subject.

graay ghost said:

I don't know if she favors me but she certainly does like to bother me.

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To a cat, that's favor.

graay ghost said:

I am aware that Pluto is domiciled but I've kind of thrown that fact out because pluto stays in signs for so long that I'm not sure it really matters to an individual. That it's on the Descendant is probably important, but there's not much on that aside from the abuse/abuser dynamic.

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If Pluto aspects any of your personal planets--and for you, it does--it's an important part of your personal story. Same is true if it's angular. It might function more like an impersonal force in your life, though. Everyone born between 1985 and 1994, plus some people born in 1984, 1995, or 1996, has Pluto in Scorpio, but they don't all have it in the same house and they don't all have significant aspects between Pluto and their personal planets and they don't all have it angular. However, a member of the Pluto in Scorpio generation who has an angular Pluto aspecting their personal planets is likely to have it play out somewhat differently than a member of a different Pluto generation who has the same angularity and aspects.

Other possible outcomes of Pluto on the DC, besides an abused/abuser dynamic, include deeply intimate relationships, conscious shadow work, and/or healing partnerships. Those are some positive manifestations, as opposed to the negative. The thing with Pluto, especially when it's in Scorpio, is it's a very powerful and potentially very dangerous force. It will bring transformation, like it or not. Powerful transformation. Which can have very good outcomes or very bad outcomes. When Pluto is good, it's very, very good, and when it's bad, it's horrid.

graay ghost said:

See, this is the thing. It's the thing in most of astrology stuff I've read. There is so, so much "you're the problem, so change yourself, be patient, more yielding, blah blah blah." Everyone seems to have bad things to say about them, but these things are being said to a Taurus Rising, Cancer Sun, Capricorn Moon. Meaning, those things were already done and proven to not work, which means that the situation calls for something else. There is a definite underlying fear of upsetting the status quo in these descriptions. I know about fearing upsetting the status quo. I live it. But sometimes it needs to be done.

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The astrology info you read was written for general audiences, not for you personally. And yes, much of it reads like a self help book. Trouble with self help books is, they don't take your personal situation into account, which might be very different from that of others with similar characteristics to you. If you were consulting a professional astrologer, they would say some different things, because they would have a read on what's going on for you personally.

graay ghost said:

The real question is if an employer will ruin me for trying to leave/leaving because I'm too necessary for them.

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How do you suppose an employer could ruin you? Aside from firing you for trying to leave or refusing to give you a reference, or giving you a bad reference, there's really nothing they can do. If you're concerned about the kind of reference you would get from them, you can opt not to use them, and if you get another job, it won't really matter if they fired you.

@Osamenor: on the matter of dispositors vs aspects, yes, it was the same thing, as in what I read was actually applying to aspects, and I'm pretty sure the source that said to use non-generational planets only for dispositors was using the same logic. It's all the same logic, really. In both matters, this says that generational planets must be treated differently because they only "give" and do not "take."

Osamenor said:

How do you suppose an employer could ruin you? Aside from firing you for trying to leave or refusing to give you a reference, or giving you a bad reference, there's really nothing they can do. If you're concerned about the kind of reference you would get from them, you can opt not to use them, and if you get another job, it won't really matter if they fired you.

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Yes, those things. If I work for them for a few years, save my pennies and move hundreds of miles away and they refuse to give me a decent reference, I mean, I'm back to square one, essentially. All the people I like live far away, but as far as I can tell, none of the people I like are managing to do anything career-wise, so it might in part be where they live... Like, i don't think wanting to satisfy "living around people I like" and "having a job I like" are really that insane goals. I can understand the natural order of things is to live by the commands of your stomach for food but wanting more than that is not crazy. It's necessary, even.

waybread said:

I should also add that measuring planetary strength is more important in traditional western astrology, with its essential and accidental dignities, than it is in modern astrology.

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Good point. I think I knew that, too. Trying to learn too much at once!

waybread said:

I guess my answer would be "none of the above," because both Uranus and Venus are disposited by a domiciled Mercury in its own sign of Virgo. You also have a domiciled sun in Leo. Your 8th house is quite the powerhouse in your chart. But it is under some strain with that moon-Neptune square.

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That's quite validating. I do feel very eighth house. Most of my interests seem to me to be eighth house sorts of things.

Ever since I started looking at my own chart, I've been trying to puzzle this out: moon is square (loosely) to Venus, plus Mercury if we extend the orb to 9 degrees, but it's also in an approaching trine with my sun. So the same thing both squares and trines my eighth house.

I also recently realized that Uranus forms a loose sextile with my sun, and the MC is even more tightly sextiled to my sun. And then, sun squares my nodal axis, with north node in Scorpio... so it looks like there's not much of anything I can do in life that doesn't come down to an eighth house/Scorpionic message.

waybread said:

Your angular and most elevated planet Uranus is also a power point, however, so ultimately I would see it as stronger than your Venus retrograde. Uranus is the modern ruler of astrology (Mercury is the traditional ruler) so you do find astrologers (both professional and amateur) with this placement. (I've got Uranus conjunct my MC.) As you've probably learned, however, you can have one or more of several outcomes:

1. a lot of disruption in your professional life
2. you develop a public image as an iconoclast
3. you need a lot of change and diversity within your job
4. you have a Uranian type of career
5. you have suddenly gotten and lost jobs
6. you experience work-home conflicts (because Uranus opposes your IC)

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I've experienced 1, 3, and 5 definitively, and 6 somewhat. I would probably have lots of work/home conflict if I had children, which I don't (due to circumstance and lack of any strong drive to be a mother, not a decision to focus on career instead). As it is, the only real way I've seen work/home conflict play out is I've done work that kept me moving a lot. Not anymore, but that was the case for a long time. As for #2, I'm not sure I really have a public reputation at this point (aside from being an oddball who gets along with people! ), but iconoclast seems to fit. Probably, that's how I will be known if I'm not known that way already.

waybread said:

Some of us lucky ones also have Uranus conjunct MC square our AC/DC axis--happily yours forms a sextile to your AC.

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Since we're discussing angles, I discovered something else about mine sometime ago, and posted a thread about it that's had no responses so far: I also have Nessus conjunct my DC, and trine Uranus. I think that must be significant, but if there are no responses to my thread, maybe nobody here knows enough about Nessus to answer the question. Ordinarily, I haven't been looking at asteroids, except when Chiron seems strong (I have an angular Chiron, too, on the IC, so share that fourth house Chiron with graay ghost). Curious about Nessus angular, though.

graay ghost said:

I've been trying to ignore how I feel about stuff all my life. That's how I got into this situation in the first place. It is very easy to do all the right things and still remain mysteriously unhappy. I mean, maybe not for everyone, but that's exactly what happened here.

See, this is the thing. It's the thing in most of astrology stuff I've read. There is so, so much "you're the problem, so change yourself, be patient, more yielding, blah blah blah." Everyone seems to have bad things to say about them, but these things are being said to a Taurus Rising, Cancer Sun, Capricorn Moon. Meaning, those things were already done and proven to not work, which means that the situation calls for something else. There is a definite underlying fear of upsetting the status quo in these descriptions. I know about fearing upsetting the status quo. I live it. But sometimes it needs to be done.

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I wonder if you're jumping to conclusions just a bit. Astrology primers and forms contain the good, the bad, and the ugly. There isn't a single simplistic message when you compare different astrology cookbooks, even among the trads.

The best thing you can do now is read widely, and read a lot of charts. Even if you make mistakes reading charts, so long as people give you feedback, you will learn a lot.

My favourite primers are Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky; and Robert Hand, Planets in Youth. Forrest takes a dynamic approach to modern astrology-- you're not just stuck with a difficult chart of static personality traits, and That's The Way It Is. Hand takes a very sensible and helpful approach to working with difficult aspects.

It's not a question of radically changing yourself. If astrology means anything, you will always have certain personality patterns. However, every horoscope placement has empowering and disempowering interpretations. Each will be consistent with the placement, yet the empowering ones are a lot more helpful than the disempowering ones.

Then at some point in your studies, you will get a feel for whether you prefer modern, traditional (western,) or Vedic (also called jyotish) astrology, and you can begin to specialize.

I would never suggest that you ignore your feelings for your entire life! I would suggest that even your dream job will have its bad days and difficulties. For one thing, during your dream job, you will probably encounter some difficult transits or progressions. So this isn't the time to say, "Well, I feel bad this week, I guess I'll quit."

I would suggest that feelings have times when you kind of have to power on through the difficulties. A Capricorn moon can be prone to negative thinking; whereas its real strength is a capacity for detachment and practicality. If there's a messy job to be done, a watery moon might dissolve into feelings of helplessness, when a practical Capricorn moon is ready to roll up its sleeves and solve the problem. This is why Capricorn moons often make good nurses.

Also, be sure not to get yourself into a bind, where you say, "Well, I tried something once and it didn't work out, so that's IT ON THAT." Saturn teaches persistence and resourcefulness. Versatile people know there's usually more than one way to solve a problem.

graay ghost said:

And here's what I totally do not understand about the astrological moon. There is so much "changeable" and "mysterious" and "irrational" about it. But... this is pretty silly. Because the oldest lunar calendar is 10,000 years old, so humans have understood the moon's pattern for at least 10,000 years. The moon might look different day to day, but it is nothing if not predictable.

If you feel horrible periodically but consistently, that is absolutely not something that should be ignored and stuffed down and denied, even though doing all those things seems to be conventional wisdom.

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Will the real moon please stand up?

For sure the moon is changeable as it moves through its phases and positions relative to the sun, compared to the other planets; yet, as you note, the changes are entirely predictable. No contradiction here.

In horary astrology, the moon is an extremely important planet precisely because of its rapid movement.

The moon symbolizes your emotional nature and subconscious. Combine that with the moon being the fastest moving heavenly body in your chart, and you get the idea.

The moon also symbolizes your home and experience of your mother. Plus other things in medical and horary astrology.

Some people, further, suffer from depression or are bi-polar. These are diagnosable medical conditions.

waybread said:

I wonder if you're jumping to conclusions just a bit. Astrology primers and forms contain the good, the bad, and the ugly. There isn't a single simplistic message when you compare different astrology cookbooks, even among the trads.

The best thing you can do now is read widely, and read a lot of charts. Even if you make mistakes reading charts, so long as people give you feedback, you will learn a lot.

My favourite primers are Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky; and Robert Hand, Planets in Youth. Forrest takes a dynamic approach to modern astrology-- you're not just stuck with a difficult chart of static personality traits, and That's The Way It Is. Hand takes a very sensible and helpful approach to working with difficult aspects.

It's not a question of radically changing yourself. If astrology means anything, you will always have certain personality patterns. However, every horoscope placement has empowering and disempowering interpretations. Each will be consistent with the placement, yet the empowering ones are a lot more helpful than the disempowering ones.

Then at some point in your studies, you will get a feel for whether you prefer modern, traditional (western,) or Vedic (also called jyotish) astrology, and you can begin to specialize.

I would never suggest that you ignore your feelings for your entire life! I would suggest that even your dream job will have its bad days and difficulties. For one thing, during your dream job, you will probably encounter some difficult transits or progressions. So this isn't the time to say, "Well, I feel bad this week, I guess I'll quit."

I would suggest that feelings have times when you kind of have to power on through the difficulties. A Capricorn moon can be prone to negative thinking; whereas its real strength is a capacity for detachment and practicality. If there's a messy job to be done, a watery moon might dissolve into feelings of helplessness, when a practical Capricorn moon is ready to roll up its sleeves and solve the problem. This is why Capricorn moons often make good nurses.

Also, be sure not to get yourself into a bind, where you say, "Well, I tried something once and it didn't work out, so that's IT ON THAT." Saturn teaches persistence and resourcefulness. Versatile people know there's usually more than one way to solve a problem.

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I could never be a nurse. Far too squeamish.

I am not suggesting quitting my job over one bad week. In fact I am suggesting problems a year or more from now when I have fully integrated myself into a place I am now. I am suggesting not some sort of aversion to "hard work" I am saying rather that the rewards of staying on some sort of straight and narrow are overstated because, well, once you prove yourself to be completely and utterly reliable, people start relying on you for more and more things and thinking less and less about dumping more and more on you, and that the rewards for this are not worth losing your mind to what everyone wants.

The idea is that rather than just blindly doing what people ask you for because of some kind of far-off promise of reward that probably isn't so great, to instead look out for #1. Do not let other people take advantage of your abilities when they realize you have them. "Accomplishment" is meaningless if the fruits of it do not serve you. Etc.

This train of thought probably doesn't make any sense, does it. Blame Sun opp Uranus.

Osamenor said:

Good point. I think I knew that, too. Trying to learn too much at once!


That's quite validating. I do feel very eighth house. Most of my interests seem to me to be eighth house sorts of things.

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Thanks for the feedback!

Ever since I started looking at my own chart, I've been trying to puzzle this out: moon is square (loosely) to Venus, plus Mercury if we extend the orb to 9 degrees, but it's also in an approaching trine with my sun. So the same thing both squares and trines my eighth house.

I also recently realized that Uranus forms a loose sextile with my sun, and the MC is even more tightly sextiled to my sun. And then, sun squares my nodal axis, with north node in Scorpio... so it looks like there's not much of anything I can do in life that doesn't come down to an eighth house/Scorpionic message.

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I find it most helpful to forget the idea that humans are monolithic, unified individuals. Astrology implies that we are more like committees or extended families. Some members get along really well and support each other. But then these same members can have a lot of friction with some of the others. Conjunct planets kind of hold hands through life. Sometimes planets are the loners in the group, or even the trouble-makers. In a chart with an opposition, sometimes a third planet trines one and sextiles the other, and can act as an intermediary.

Generally, the tighter the orb, the more you will feel an aspect.

Planets, signs, and houses do not mean identical things, but sometimes we do find people who exemplify a certain "chord" or "key." An 8th chord person would have emphases involving Pluto, the 8th house, and Scorpio. These tend to reinforce one another.

Since we're discussing angles, I discovered something else about mine sometime ago, and posted a thread about it that's had no responses so far: I also have Nessus conjunct my DC, and trine Uranus. I think that must be significant, but if there are no responses to my thread, maybe nobody here knows enough about Nessus to answer the question. Ordinarily, I haven't been looking at asteroids, except when Chiron seems strong (I have an angular Chiron, too, on the IC, so share that fourth house Chiron with graay ghost). Curious about Nessus angular, though.

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Sorry, I've not studied the centaurs. My feeling about asteroids is that they can be used judiciously, and with a good reason for using them.