Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

CapAquaPis

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Astrology we often use are based on the sun's position in the sky, scientifically, it should have more to do with the earth's position orbiting the sun. The earth is always in astronomical opposition to the sun (i.e. my birthdate Feb 15, 1980 - the sun appears to be 26' Aquarius to us on earth, but in reality, the earth is in 26' Leo). Planetary placements would have to be different when one goes by heliocentric astrology, based on earth's position in the solar system from the sun's perspective, an Aquarius sun for earth is actually Leo sun in heliocentric.

In heliocentric astrology, the earth was in the 12th house (Libra) for a month or two (Scorpio) from Mar 21-May 21, 2020 when over half of the world was in lockdown during the Covid-19 pandemic. The 12th house is thought to be in confinement or house arrest, the world was indeed confined or staying at home.

California (itself a Virgo sun-Sep 9, 1850-at 16') were the first US state and some of their counties told people to stay at home early: Mar 9 for example when the earth is in Virgo and the state's natal chart finds the Moon in 3' Scorpio, reverse the placement of the sun in 27' Taurus on May 18th, when more Californians are no longer having to quarantine themselves when the state is in a reopening phase.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
How are the Houses determined in Heliocentric coordinates?
In Geocentric, they're locational, for a time and place regarding the Ascendant.
Not seeing how an Asc can be determined for the Sun-centered zodiac.
 
CapAquaPis

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
david starling said:
How are the Houses determined in Heliocentric coordinates?
In Geocentric, they're locational, for a time and place regarding the Ascendant.
Not seeing how an Asc can be determined for the Sun-centered zodiac.
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Procession? Or based on New Years' night? (Midnight, Jan 1st, all time zones?) It has to involve planetary aspects, simple as that. ASC in geocentric astrology is Scorpio or sidereal Libra, but for heliocentric, it'll be Taurus or sidereal Aries. It can't be the 12th house, more like a planetary aspect in that house causes the world to locked down on March 21, 2020 in the earth's equinox (spring in northern, autumn in southern). In geocentric (Mar 21st, noon, all time zones), the lunar node was in Cancer while the ASC in 1' Cancer at the equator...placed Gemini in 12th. The lunar nodes could explain this, not heliocentric astrology.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I use Heliocentric to shed light on the Geocentric, especially rulerships and the Ages. As soon as one identifies the zodiac as being in the plane of the Ecliptic, the dual nature of the Ecliptic becomes apparent: It's both the Earth's elliptical orbit around the Sun, AND the Sun's circular orbit around the Earth.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
CapAquaPis said:
Procession? Or based on New Years' night? (Midnight, Jan 1st, all time zones?) It has to involve planetary aspects, simple as that. ASC in geocentric astrology is Scorpio or sidereal Libra, but for heliocentric, it'll be Taurus or sidereal Aries. It can't be the 12th house, more like a planetary aspect in that house causes the world to locked down on March 21, 2020 in the earth's equinox (spring in northern, autumn in southern). In geocentric (Mar 21st, noon, all time zones), the lunar node was in Cancer while the ASC in 1' Cancer at the equator...placed Gemini in 12th. The lunar nodes could explain this, not heliocentric astrology.
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I'm using a precessional Age-window for the World's Ages, which would explain the worldwide effect of this virus. I see it as a terrible Saturn/Pluto combination in tropical Capricorn, which is nearly coincidental with the tropical Age-window. Now, I'm watching for what impact if any will correspond to the June 29th Conj of Jupiter and Pluto in the Age-window @ 24 degrees tropical Capricorn. Also, the Tropical Age-indicator was at 24 degrees Capricorn for the U.S. Natal-chart.
 
CapAquaPis

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
david starling said:
I'm using a precessional Age-window for the World's Ages, which would explain the worldwide effect of this virus. I see it as a terrible Saturn/Pluto combination in tropical Capricorn, which is nearly coincidental with the tropical Age-window. Now, I'm watching for what impact if any will correspond to the June 29th Conj of Jupiter and Pluto in the Age-window @ 24 degrees tropical Capricorn. Also, the Tropical Age-indicator was at 24 degrees Capricorn for the U.S. Natal-chart.
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Just now, a wave of racial riots and civil unrest to protest the past week of police brutality and racist incidents against African-Americans sweeps the USA. A month from now, I see a more intense post-lockdown period full of anger and demonstrations, our health, economy and society seems to be so damaged. Halfway through the presidential election too (May 29th), the Jupiter-Pluto conjunction in 23' Capricorn (close to 24') is a malefic degree under the influence of Mars a week before our Independence Day (July 4) around the middle of the year 2020. Minneapolis is where the wave of riots and unrest began, after the local police officer killed George Floyd in an arrest, the black man said "I can't breathe" one of the 3 slogans like "Don't shoot" and "Black Lives Matter" that protest the high incidence of police brutality against African-Americans. This is going to cost Donald Trump his 2nd term reelection changes, it's reported Trump is mad as hell about COVID-19 is destroying him now in reputation and his presidency's legacy. And the WHO said COVID-19 will turn endemic in many regions of the world unable to contain the disease, the USA will have a longer time eradicating a pandemic compared to East Asia, Australia/NZ and Europe getting closer to that point...the Jupiter/Pluto conjunction in 23' Capricorn to heavily affect the USA than any other nation: are we about to collapse by then?
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
Traditional astrology was nearly extinct before Modern astrology came along. :biggrin:
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WESTERN traditional astrology is not the sole form of astrology :smile:

There is more than one form of astrology
for example
India considers Vedic astrology a Science

there is also:

Chinese Astrology
Tibetan Astrology
Mayan Astrology
Ancient Mesopotamian Babylonian Astrology hhttps://www.babylonianastrology.com/
Sidereal Astrology https://solunars.com/

WESTERN traditional astrology was not PUBLICLY practiced
because it was declared ILLEGAL
as has been stated:

conspiracy theorist said:
People still marry for status, money and stability. Courtly love & romance driven relationships have existed long before the current day, and the fact that traditional ideas still have a foothold in the current day shows the adaptability and fitness of them. There survival into the current day is a testament to that fact that either we haven't evolved as much as some believe, or that the ideas themselves are still alive and relevant for the current day human, despite the supposed evolutionary steps that have been taken from "back then" until now.
Modern astrology didn't come about because traditional philosophies and techniques were outdated per se (neoplatonism, atomism, stoicism are all philosophies that are popular and have lively followings today), but the time of its transformation came about on the heals of the enlightenment, Darwin's theory of evolution and the emergence of psychology as an independent branch of scientific study. An important change to the subject came about when Alan Leo was on trial for his astrological predictions and had to morph astrology into a new form in order to avoid the law. This opened the door to the marrying of psychology with astrology. Sun sign astrology apparently came about in the 1930s as a result of pressures from a newspaper to create a simplified astrology for the masses. Both instances can be referred to as "evolutions" in that both innovations came as a result of the changing environment and adaptation in order to survive. It can be argued whether evolution is in a never ending upward trajectory.
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There are multiple forms of astrology :smile:
for example
Vedic astrology
Chinese Astrology
Tibetan Astrology
Mayan Astrology
Ancient Mesopotamian Babylonian Astrology hhttps://www.babylonianastrology.com/
Sidereal Astrology https://solunars.com/
david starling said:
Modern materialistic scientists refuse to accept any version of astrology
as having merit, based on the precepts of the Scientific Method.
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those "modern materialsitc scientists" have not posted their opinions on this thread :smile:
and none of those "modern materialistic scientists" can explain gravity
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
How objective is your observation?
And, why haven't Traditional astrologers
been able to pass the test from a modern-scientific point of view?
Click to expand...
four modernist astrologers were asked to delineate

the chart of John Wayne Gacy
but not told whose chart it was :smile:

i.e.

To assess astrology accuracy
a member of Kansas City Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (KCCSI)
approached four modernist astrologers
posing as man interested in working with young people
and gave each astrologer the birth data of John Wayne Gacy
instead of his own
- plus a computerized natal chart from a company internationally recognized for accuracy (Neil F.Michelsen)
- and asked for their advice.

QUOTE:

Four Modern Astrologers said Serial Killer John Wayne Gacy:

(1) "…can be very good with kids..."
(2) "...just your presence would be beneficial to other people..."
(3)"...a fairly well-rounded personality...you can offer a good role model..."
(4)"You have an instinctive awareness and your uninhibited response to life
can refresh and gladden whomever you encounter."

The four modern astrologers unanimously encouraged him to pursue youth work
and none saw any problem with this.
Gacy was selected
because his chart should portray a clear picture of a sadistic sexually motivated killer



IN CONTRAST

...Traditional Astrology Says:

"...shows a strange mind and very wicked.":smile:

John Wayne Gacy, Jr. 17 March 1942 – May 10, 1994 was an American serial killer
and rapist, also known as the Killer Clown, who was convicted
of the sexual assault and murder of a minimum of 33 teenage boys
and young men in a series of killings
committed between 1972 and 1978 in Chicago, Illinois.
All of Gacy's known murders were
committed inside his Norwood Park home, victims typically lured to this address
by force/deceptiveness, all but one victim
murdered by asphyxiation/ strangulation with a tourniquet
- first victim stabbed to death


Gacy buried 26 victims in the crawl space of his home;
three victims were buried elsewhere on his property
bodies of last four known victims were discarded in Des Plaines River.
Convicted of 33 murders, Gacy was sentenced to death
for 12 of these killings 13 March 1980 then
spent 14 years on death row
before being executed by lethal injection at Stateville Correctional Center 10 May 1994.


Gacy known as the "Killer Clown" due to his charitable services
at fundraising events, parades and children's parties
where he would dress as "Pogo the Clown", a character he devised himself


by the way
- each of these four modernist astrologers is named in the study :smile:

John Sandbach, a nationally known astrologer
who has authored six books, advised
not to 'become weighed down with regrets
about how you could have done more in some past situation,'
describing a 'plasticity or lack of aggression' in the chart,
encouraging him to work with young people
because he could 'bring out their best qualities.'


Randy Goodman told the substitute Gacy
that he was 'really born to serve people.'
He stated that 'In the past you have used your energies very well, so therefore
in this life you have a lot to contribute, and
... your life will be very, very positive.'


Norma Knight described him as 'a very, very sensitive person.'
Asked whether youth ministry would provide suitable employment, she replied
'I think that you can be very good with kids
and that it might be a good medium for you to learn
to be more trusting in the giving and receiving.'


Beverly Farrel, 'internationally recognized author, lecturer
teacher of religion, metaphysics, astrology, psychic awareness'
with '30 years experience in field of (the) paranormal'
encouraged the man behind the chart to do youth work, because
'when you're working with young people
you're not gonna have a lot of heavy-duty problems.'


The results indicate that modernist astrologers cannot read a persons character
from the positions of the planets at the moment of birth
nor can modernist astrologers see into anyone's past or future
nor do they seem to possess any insights other than
the ability to impress their clientele

51C8S7MNGFL.jpg
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
It would take more than
what a skeptic would consider a lucky guess
in one single case
to prove astrology works.
Click to expand...
Obviously - since that skeptic
is unfamiliar with traditional ancient astrological texts
having neither read nor studied traditional astrological ancient texts
and would not know whether "astrology works" or not

david starling said:
How objective is your observation?
Click to expand...
Quite
david starling said:
Any other examples?
Click to expand...
a skeptic such as yourself
who has neither read nor studied any traditional texts :smile:
has debateable objectivity of observation
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
moonkat235 said:
I definitely think you can approach astrology using the scientific method, and by formulating hypotheses about certain facets of astrological concepts and ideas. It's like with any large branch of knowledge (history, medicine, language, etc.). We don't know everything, so we have to keep digging and searching and experiencing or experimenting. At least that's how I think about it.

I guess I struggle a bit when I really think about the definition of science, rather than the connotations we generally have. First thought that popped into my mind was physics and then medicine was next, but these are just aspects of 'science' rather than 'science' itself, imo. I almost want to define the term 'science' as more of an approach, like 'science' is actually the attempt to explain the universe systematically. I'm not sure I'm explaining this all that well... lol Anyway, if I think of a better way to articulate my thoughts, I'll make another post.

I think astrologers study and approach the physical and natural world through the use of observation and experimentation. I figure astrology is meant to be a system, a set of interconnecting parts working together to offer an explanation of the observable and shared reality.

(Sometimes, I think words and language in general have so many connotations that it's necessary to give some definitions so there's less room for miscommunication.)

The definitions I'm using are from google's dictionary. lol

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Scientific Method: a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

Hypothesis: a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

System: a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.
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Middle English (denoting knowledge): from Old French, from Latin scientia
from scire ‘know’.

In 1834, Cambridge University historian and philosopher of science
William Whewell coined the term "scientist"
to replace such terms as "cultivators of science."

science (n.)mid-14c. "what is known, knowledge (of something) acquired by study; information;"
also
"assurance of knowledge, certitude, certainty,"
from Old French science "knowledge, learning, application; corpus of human knowledge"

(12c.), from Latin scientia "knowledge, a knowing; expertness,"
from sciens (genitive scientis) "intelligent, skilled," present participle of scire "to know,"
probably originally "to separate one thing from another, to distinguish,"
related to scindere "to cut, divide," from PIE root *skei- "to cut, split"
(source also of Greek skhizein "to split, rend, cleave,"
Gothic skaidan, Old English sceadan "to divide, separate").

From late 14c. in English as "book-learning,"
also
"a particular branch of knowledge or of learning;"
also
"skillfulness, cleverness; craftiness."

From c. 1400 as "experiential knowledge;"
also
"a skill, handicraft; a trade."

From late 14c. as "collective human knowledge"
(especially that gained by systematic observation, experiment, and reasoning).

Modern (restricted) sense of
"body of regular or methodical observations or propositions
concerning a particular subject or speculation"
is attested from 1725; in 17c.-18c.
this concept commonly was called philosophy.

Sense of "non-arts studies" is attested from 1670s.
Science, since people must do it, is a socially embedded activity.
It progresses by hunch, vision, and intuition.
Much of its change through time does not record a closer approach to absolute truth
but the alteration of cultural contexts that influence it so strongly.
Facts are not pure and unsullied bits of information;
culture also influences what we see and how we see it.
Theories, moreover, are not inexorable inductions from facts.
The most creative theories are often imaginative visions imposed upon facts;
the source of imagination is also strongly cultural.
Stephen Jay Gould introduction to "The Mismeasure of Man," 1981​
In science you must not talk before you know.
In art you must not talk before you do.
In literature you must not talk before you think.
John Ruskin "The Eagle's Nest," 1872​
The distinction is commonly understood as
between theoretical truth (Greek epistemē)
and
methods for effecting practical results (tekhnē)
but science sometimes is used for practical applications :smile:
and art for applications of skill.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
greybeard said:
The scientific method is drilled into us from very early on
and we are absolutely unaware
of the degree to which this influences our mode of perception and thought.
As I am easy to live with and undemanding,

I would settle for "reasonable" or "logical" in lieu of "scientific".

I use "scientific method" in the loosest way here.
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The OP however simply refers to "a scientific point of view"
AND NOT to a "reasonable" or "logical" point of view

obviously you are entitled to an opinion
that is from your perspective "reasonable" or "logical"
just as others are entitled to their opinion
which from their perspective is "reasonable" or "logical"

fact is you just said
and I quote

greybeard said:
Here's a true story.

 I'm an old cab driver.
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and so

admittedly you are not a scientist

however
anyone is entitled to self-style as an astrologer
because no qualifications are required for western-style astrological practice


clearly therefore
if one is not a scientist
then
not unexpectedly
others who are more qualified relative to science
are entitled to challenge ones amateur opinions
in particular

ours is an AMATEUR astrological online learning forum
and not a forum populated by multitudes of experts :smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Therese said:
Maybe I get you wrong, but from what I have read from you so far,
it seems like you take a practice humankind has been involved in for millennia,
and appoint yourself for a position
to decide what to keep and what to discard,
based on your preferred theoretical framework, which you call "scientific".
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The OP requests opinion on "astrology from a scientific point of view"
therfore
not unexpectedly
the responder offers their opinion

one may disagree with that opinion
however
everyone - including yourself

is entitled to a personal perspective
as to what comprises "scientific"

the fact that your opinion differs

from that of another member
does not nullify the opinion of that member
Therese said:
And then there are those of us who think that we, human beings,
are not in the position to form a comprehensive theory about astrology
(or the universe), that we don't have an all-embracing eye
or an all-encompassing mind. And we are arrogant?
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and then there are those of us who have an opposite opinion :smile:
Therese said:

There are different ways of knowing.
You do not need a PhD in plant biology to be a good gardener.
And some biologists cannot keep a house plant alive for more than a month,
no matter that they do everything by the book (an acquaintance of mine).
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Quite
however "scientific knowing" is the topic of this thread
Therese said:
Also, most scientists I know
Click to expand...
there are tens of millions of "scientists"
all of whom frequently argue and oppose each others theories
no one has met with
nor debated with
all "scientists"

Therese said:
do not equate "scientific" with "true" and/or "real".
They consider
that the scientific approach has its scope and its limits.
Some of what is true and real
can be known via scientific methods, others not.
For example, I know for a fact
that a team member at the LHC (Large Hadron Collider)
is a practicing Catholic (we went to the same university),
and it doesn't cause him any problems.
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clearly you personally are NOT "on the team working on the Large Hadron Collider"
instead you are a psychologist
and psychology is not "a science"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...09d-science-does-it-really-matter/?redirect=1

furthermore
even if one went to the same university
as a practising Catholic who is working on the Large Hadron Collider
so did thousands of others

and
the practicing Catholic working on the Large Hadron Collider team
must earn a living
and
is paid for their services
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
greybeard said:
It's my opinion

That the stars show the state of the universe at any given moment, and that a person born at that moment IS that moment.
When it is understood that the universe is One...

The modern scientific mind is atomistic, divisive, separative.
Astrology is holistic, unifying, integrative.
Click to expand...
Astrologers all differ regarding their opinions on astrology :smile:


Gemini888 said:
I'm studying for a Master Degree, and part of my study at school is to think critically and I have to do scientific research everyday. I'm also an avid reader of science books.


At the same time, I practice astrology and Tarot, quite shamelessly.


Before we can talk about "astrology in a scientific way", should we ask this first? "Can we look at astrology with scientific eyes?"


There have been attempts to "scientifically explain" astrology, but so far none has been successful. The biggest reason is that all the scientists were operating at the place of doubt. They were doing it with the ultimate aim to prove that astrology was a fraud. They jumped into research without much knowledge of astrology as a whole. Some of them even relied on Sun signs believers. So much of the "results" contradicts each other. The Universe does not support anyone who seeks for the "truth" with the purpose of proclaiming superior over others.


At the same time, we have Carl Jung, a pioneer psychologist and devoted astrologer. Jung was unable to prove the consistent connection between science and astrology (read here for more) One reason was that he was too ashamed of his devotion to astrology in front of his "scientific" community. Jung based much of his pioneer discovery on astrology, but he didn't have enough courage to admit the devotion.


So while we wait for someone knowledgeable enough to connect the dots for us, why don't we ask ourselves if we can somehow combine a scientific and an astrological mind together?


For me personally, science and astrology complement each other. My knowledge of psychology has enabled me to make sense of charts, and astrology further expand my knowledge of psychology.


So in the end, what is the point of explaining astrology if you aren't a skeptic? Does it bother me that I can't explain astrology using science? Probably not, because I'm already combining the two forces nicely :joyful:
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here's a scientific opinion from a scientist :smile:

Physicist Richard Feynman
explains
the scientific and unscientific methods of understanding nature
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPapE-3FRw
david starling said:
Traditional is far more inclined to doom and gloom than Modern.
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on the contrary
traditional astrology is realistic concerning life's circumstances :smile:

*
ASTROLOGY FROM A SCIENTIFIC POINT OF VIEW

the following is for scientists :smile:

Sharon Knight on Traditional Predictive Astrology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvMGpvkYNU8
 
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OuterPlanets89

Well-known member
You can't justify Astrology in a modern/Western epistemological view. The issue with that is that people usually take that statement as a way to further invalidate Astrology, when most people fail to recognize that modern science is filled with limitations, epistemologically speaking.

I view the modern scientific empiricist/reductionist method of "acquiring knowledge" as a mix of 3rd and 6th house approaches - which we can look to the opposite houses (9th and 12th) for the psycho-social roots behind this hardline skepticism. European thought grew as an opposition to the dogmatic church, creating a black/white binary of science vs faith, when the two should and can both play a role in furthering thought in society. Much of Indian philosophical thought for example, was not based on this categorical, binary thinking. But due to colonialism/globalism, this approach to science has become the barometer for "truth," and people will suffer for it.

- 3rd H (micro-knowledge) + 6th H (discriminating)
- 9th H (macro-knowledge) + 12th H (connecting)

You can approach Astrology scientifically however - if you were to simply look into the coordinates/numbers and their relationships. But once you bring in psychology, energies, causality and events, there is some degree amount of "suspension of disbelief" you have to employ -- but that term in itself is biased towards modern science to begin with
 
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