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  #26  
Unread 06-14-2019, 12:51 PM
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passiflora passiflora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I happen to not share the commonly held view of a soul. I hope that's ok.

So I don't believe anyone chose anything. But they might have. It's certainly a possibility.

Let's assume Gary chose his tragic life. As I understand what was said earlier in the thread, we are supposed to be able to overcome initial negative circumstances (a "bad" chart) through use of our free will. If we fail it is because we had a failure of will.

Do I understand correctly?
Soul is perhaps a convenient metaphor uniting a number of phenomena in which I have the impression that you do believe. Subtle energies not defined by materialistic psychology, unconscious elements in the mind contained in its structure, inaccessible but superconscious experiences in which the ego can participate. I would be very interested to learn more about how you understand astrology and transpersonal planets in particular!

All that out of the way - I should clarify about what was meant by the operation of free will. I do think each individual has *some* free will, though the amount is relative. I also think that focusing mental operations within the sphere of that will can expand its boundaries and also provide a sense of self fulfillment. In the case of terrible relationship trauma like Garyís - which seems to me a wider political failure as well - that tiny sphere of free will is possibly the only precious light. No one has the right to inflict further abuse on that person just because that light flickers. Thatís the way motivational speakers talk and itís wrongly aped or mimicked by those who are starting to absorb their concepts or are addicted to them.

I feel that emphasizing free will is occupationally important to astrologers because we work with essentially deterministic energies and could fall prey to them. I know my own Neptune gives a terrible tendency to prize the esoteric map over the territory.


Last edited by passiflora; 06-14-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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  #27  
Unread 06-14-2019, 03:31 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I'd say life is tough. But I'd also say that as soon as we want to help ourselves , life supports us and carries us. As soon as we give up on ourselves so does life.

If we assumed we chose our challenges, perhaps your friend chose a highly difficult upbringing to overcome it. But maybe he just couldn't . That itself is a lesson of the soul. He might have been a very young and new soul that just couldn't deal with all the challenges.

We will never know the truth but it's best to believe something that soothes our soul and gives us hope for the future.
That's interesting.
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  #28  
Unread 06-14-2019, 03:51 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that we possess free will to choose our family or environment, but more like I can choose to go the doctor even if I am predestined (which in itself is a unfalsifiable concept) to have a certain disease.
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  #29  
Unread 06-14-2019, 03:58 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Also at worst you have two deterministic influences - your temperament and the environment. You are just a human after all that can die at any moment from a gazillion things and is dependent on many more, but you still have your own nature determined by biology to counteract certain harmful societal or upbringing influences, because you are not a blank slate. No one should confuse the two, since if that was the case, the completely passive person shouldn't be held responsible for anything.

Last edited by petosiris; 06-14-2019 at 04:22 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:23 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I was a blank slate when I was born. Mom filled the slate with graffiti. Look at me now.
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  #31  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:28 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I don't think anyone has ever suggested that we possess free will to choose our family or environment, but more like I can choose to go the doctor even if I am predestined (which in itself is a unfalsifiable concept) to have a certain disease.
Someone said, and it's a commonly-held view, that we choose our life.
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  #32  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:32 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I was a blank slate when I was born. Mom filled the slate with graffiti. Look at me now.
If you mom told you are a blank slate, then that is unfortunate. People with an internal locus of control on average report greater happiness, independence and show more success.
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  #33  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:37 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
If you mom told you are a blank slate, then that is unfortunate. People with an internal locus of control on average report greater happiness, independence and show more success.
I admit that itself may be predetermined, but that means it's more healthy to do somethings as if they are undetermined, which should be a false belief?
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  #34  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:43 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Originally Posted by psycles3 View Post
If you do not believe that you chose your time, date and place of birth before you were born, i can see why you might think there are "bad" charts. Life as a human being is chosen by your soul, as are your parents and health, wealth, skijulls and proclivities. Have faith that you know/knew what you were doing.
You don't KNOW these things. You BELIEVE them. I hold my own beliefs, and they work for me, thank you.
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  #35  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:49 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Quote:
Someone said, and it's a commonly-held view, that we choose our life.
Maybe in some modern astrology and new agey circles, it is, but not on the streets, I think.
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  #36  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:51 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycles3 View Post
If you do not believe that you chose your time, date and place of birth before you were born, i can see why you might think there are "bad" charts. Life as a human being is chosen by your soul, as are your parents and health, wealth, skills and proclivities. Have faith that you know/knew what you were doing.
Uhm, choosing rape, murder and abuse. Some souls are quite masochistic.
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  #37  
Unread 06-14-2019, 04:57 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I do not believe in free will, in the sense that I have the power to change myself and my destiny by dint of will.

I can choose chocolate over vanilla. That sort of free will is a mirage.

If there really were free will, astrology would have been discarded as useless long long ago.

Last edited by greybeard; 06-14-2019 at 05:00 PM.
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  #38  
Unread 06-14-2019, 05:08 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I do not believe in free will, in the sense that I have the power to change myself and my destiny by dint of will. I can choose chocolate over vanilla. That sort of free will is a mirage.

If there really were free will, astrology would have been discarded as useless long long ago.
Not really. Astrology, even traditional, can function with partial determinism. I don't think you can predict whether I am going to get vanilla over chocolate, since the universals of astrology probably only have partial influence on particulars. Ptolemy says:

''And yet, since it is obvious that, if we happen to have cooled ourselves against heat in general, we shall suffer less from it, similar measures can prove effective against particular forces which increase this particular temperament to a disproportionate amount of heat. For the cause of this error is the difficulty and unfamiliarity of particular prognostication, a reason which in most other situations as well brings about disbelief. And since for the most part the resisting faculty is not coupled with the prognostic, because so perfect a disposition is rare, and since the force of nature takes its course without hindrance when the primary natures are concerned, an opinion has been produced that absolutely all future events are inevitable and unescapable'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/1A*.html#3

In other words most things are outside of our control, but that doesn't mean that everything is outside of our control.

Also astrology is capable of being useful with free will:
But, I think, just as with prognostication, even if it be not entirely infallible, at least its possibilities have appeared worthy of the highest regard, so too in the case of a defensive practice, even though it does not furnish a remedy for everything, its authority in some instances at least, however few or unimportant, should be welcomed and prized and regarded as profitable in no ordinary sense. - ibid.

In other words one can go visit the doctor in the case of impending danger.

Last edited by petosiris; 06-14-2019 at 05:16 PM.
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  #39  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:06 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I have no cause to know whether it will be chocolate or vanilla.

Nor have we cause to quibble over mistaken assumptions.
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  #40  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:17 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Manilius had something to say about fate vs. free will too.

Of course he was a Stoic. But then so am I.

Last edited by greybeard; 06-14-2019 at 07:27 PM.
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  #41  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:22 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I have no cause to know whether it will be chocolate or vanilla.

Nor have we cause to quibble over mistaken assumptions.
You have causes that make you a human. The emergent human is not entirely reducible, since the whole is something different from the parts. The human can then also be a cause.

Last edited by petosiris; 06-14-2019 at 07:26 PM.
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  #42  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:24 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Manilius had something to say about fate vs. free will too.
Ptolemy had something to say about fate vs. free will too. Point being?
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  #43  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:29 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

We have no cause to quibble.
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  #44  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:31 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Let me translate that for you.
End of discussion.
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  #45  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:35 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Let me translate that for you.
End of discussion.
It is not as if I don't have a cause.
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  #46  
Unread 06-14-2019, 07:49 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

On topic, in Valens there is a thing that is called the ''basis/foundation of the nativity'', generally indicated by the state of the triplicity rulers of the sect light, or the nativity itself.

''<Forecast> according to the basis of the nativity for the rich, the middle class, the toilers, the poor, and the craftsmen.''

''On the contrary, generally one star is found to be ruler of the basis of the nativity (i.e. noble, average, base-born) from its beginning (or that one star activates the influences of the rest). Another star is the ruler of the remaining factors.''

''Another person became a ruler, preeminent among the masses. When the same chronocratorship happens again, and if the basis of the nativity is good, he will receive great and distinguished offices. If the basis is average, the native will associate with rulers or he will have the appearance of rule or preeminence.''

''If this transmission coincides with the first chronocratorship, without question there will be inheritances and great benefits proportional to the basis of the nativity.''

''If the basis of the nativity is found to be characteristic of one living an inactive, isolated life, varied and surprising activities during the transmission of the chronocratorships or in the configuring of transits should not be forecast. Furthermore, those who are entirely fortunate will not be harmed by malefics entering operative places, nor will the humble be helped by benefics—all because of the overall predisposition <of the nativity>, which partial influences cannot change.''
- https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
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  #47  
Unread 06-14-2019, 09:41 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I think you need to dig into science and psychology because you are ramming your head in a wall.

Scientifically is proven that your brain/unconsciousness makes a decision about 5 seconds before you think you made it. That in a sense proves predestination . However , your subconscious mind is still you. How you deal with that is your choice.

A life without free will seems depressivr to me and victimized . I trust my subconscious mind and I trust it loves me and wants the best for me hence I try to surrender to it .

I highly doubt some God makes decisions for you lol. It's just easier to not have free will cos then you don't need to take responsibility for your mistakes and failures . So many people chose that perspective . Sadly that's not the case.
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  #48  
Unread 06-15-2019, 03:30 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

One day I mailed an important letter. I ran a chart on the mailing. Saturn rising and Rx...the question is dead.

A few days later the letter came back undeliverable: It was a dead letter.

If the universe takes an interest in a letter, I suspect it also notices you and me.

Question: Was that chart about the letter itself, or about the outcome of the action of mailing the letter?
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  #49  
Unread 06-15-2019, 09:26 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Something to think about:

Does the act of astrological inquiry solidify (in lack of a better term) the outcome into a reality in the same way as observer collapses the wave function in quantum mechanics? (most recent experiments suggest that it is the act of collecting data that actually collapses the wave function, although observer has to be included).

Another example would be a medical scan. A person may have some probability of illness, depending on various factors, and medical scan may or may not find illness. But, according to principles of quantum mechanics, if the medical scan does find the illness that means the illness exists only from the moment when the medical scan was applied. Prior to that moment, it was unknown, it was just a possibility with some probability attached to it.

Similarly, it may be the act of astrological inquiry (collecting data) that sealed the fate of the letter. Prior to that, only a probability of letter being undeliverable existed.
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  #50  
Unread 06-15-2019, 10:35 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Things are as you name them. It would have been a horaey chart so it depends if you asked about the letter itself, the outcome of the letter, or the outcome regarding your attachment to it depending on why is that letter being sent and where and whatsnits purpose and how it will affect.your life. Not the best example anyways.

It's the same with predictive tools such as tarot . It only matters what you ask and only this will be answered. If you ask "Will my letter arrive?" Tarot can show you yes or no and possibly why if you would care to ask.

The universe notices us but then it's entirely up to your belief how. You can chose to believe you are one with the universe or it's separate from you, and both perspective will produce very different lives. Sometimes we cannot control situations but we can control always our reactions to them. And reaction is everything . It shows how much you have learned and how much you have yet to learn.

So let's say you are someone who always reacts badly when being fired. So much so you question your own worth and self esteem and generally this even just hurts you emotionally and mentally . It's a pattern that keeps repeating in your life regardless of transits and solar returns and you can't find a reason why it's happening . You cannot predict it, you can only try to find the after math in astrology . And somehow it's always a different planetary configuration. However the situation might be different same as the planets, the cause for being fired is prolly always different ,but the outcome is always the same. How would you try to explain that? Well it's simply a lesson you resist learning . Hence it keeps repeating . If it was learned , the planetary configurations you found to correspond to you being fired, would have manifested in some different way. Because every planet ,aspect and sign have a lot more than one meaning .

I hope you get what I mean.
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