The Parts of Fortune & Soul according to Rudhyar

Phoenix Venus

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Hola hombres. OM PREMA NAM OM.

Many of you regulars here are well aware that Piercethevale and I are champions of the arabic parts. We've spent quite a bit of time studying the part of fortune and the part of soul. The Part of Fortune utilizes the formula As + Moon - Sun and the Part of Soul utilizes the reverse formula As + Sun - Moon.

Well there is some debate on the issue of whether to reverse the formulas depending on whether one is born during the night or the day. We both hold strong to the belief that the formulas retain their inherent meaning regardless of the time one was born.

Last night I stumbled upon Dane Rudhyar's book "The Lunation Cycle" which can be read here:

http://www.mindfire.ca/The%20Lunation%20Cycle/Contents.htm

There is a chapter in the book entitled "The Part of Fortune and Part of Spirit" that I believe puts the debate to rest once and for all.

Here is the summary of Rudhyar's explination on the two parts:

Rudhyar equates the meaning of the part of fortune and part of spirit to the movement they make as the new moon moves around the zodiac towards the full moon and the eventual next conjunction of the new moon.

During the new moon both parts are conjunct the ascendant. As the moon pulls away from the sun and then moves towards the full moon, the pof goes forward through the houses 1-6 and the part of spirit retrogrades through the houses above the horizon 12-7.

He says this is why the ancients contributed the pof to material fruition and the part of spirit to spiritual fruition, because retrogradation is considered to be an aspect of spiritual movement. This backwards momentum is about going BACK through tradition towards the SOURCE.

Well Rudhyar says the POF is more about one finding happiness through personality integration. He also says that there is a new understanding of spiritual attainment and that is about planting the seeds towards the future... Towards Global Man. Both modes of progression are equally important.

The part of fortune will always be equally below the horizon as the part of soul is above the horizon. (And of course after the full moon these positions flip.) Thus these two parts compliment each other.

He says that the POF is more symbolic of the moon and the role of the mother caring for progeny in the home (below the horizon) thus is about expectations of the future...

While the part of spirit is the sun, the father, dealing with collecting values (social power.. Above the horizon) and thus about letting go of the karmic weight of the past..

And there I leave you all to reach your own conclusions.

Comments appreciated as always.

OM TAT SAT OM.
 
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Phoenix Venus

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
I'd like to mention that Rudhyar's attribution of the POF being likened to the moon and Part of Soul to the sun is very much in line with what piercethevale and I have discerned regarding the general application of the parts.

Take any parts formula utilizing the asc and you have As + Planet A - Planet B. Well the situation is this: You are the ascendant, the who, identifying as Planet A, at which point Planet B comes along and influences you, metaphorically locks eyes with you.

So in the situation of As + moon - sun, you are the moon, meeting eyes with the sun. We've come to determine that the part of fortune could be described as the christ consciousness within us. The most fortune precept to employ in order to fulfill ones dharma.

And it really makes sense when you consider what we've learned of the moon phases and how to apply the part of fortune.

During the full moon, the pof and part of soul are conjunct the descendent, the whom-to, or who you are becoming. The full moon holds the potential to take "quantam leaps" in evolutionary growth.
 
CapAquaPis

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
For new moon babies (Feb 15, 1980, for example), the POF is 6' above the ASC (12th house) and Part of Spirit 6' below (1st house) on the natal chart. My ASC 17' Cancer = POF 11' Cancer and POS 23' Cancer. The asteroid Juno is 14' and also has "maternal" influences like the Moon and the sign it rules: Cancer. And 11' (or 12'?) Cancer in sabian degree symbols depicted a woman with an infant and the strong, important influence she has on her child (either a boy or girl).
 
piercethevale

piercethevale

Well-known member
My apologies here are required.
I had written in another thread that both the Part of Fortune and the Part of Spirit advance in the Traditional direction... and in this particular case that would be below the horizon as Phoenix Venus wrote but that is relative to a specific geophysical point.
If the "birthplace' used for the event chart, for example, is Philadelphia then both Parts are progressing in the Traditional dirction, i.e. counterclockwise below the horizon.

But to a constant point that is the exact coordinates of the Tropical Zodiac that is the "birthcharts" Asc. then the Part of Spirit is moving in the other direction,., i.e. "clockwise" and above the horizon.

It came to me that as the Asc. is the awareness of ones being and that when one goes into deep meditation on the nature of ones' own self then that particular Sabian Symbol that corresponds to the Asc. is the fixed awareness held in ones' consciousness when they achieve samadhi with that precept.

Thus in a meditative state [and by "meditative state" I do mean a perfect meditative state of total oneness in consciousness with the Divine Precept as is revealed by the Sabian Symbol of that particular degree of the Tropical Zodiac that is the Asc., i.e. an achieved state of samadhi in awareness with that Precept of ones' being.] though the ephemeral procession of the Sun and the Moon is in a clockwise direction through the Zodiac (and the Sun and the Moon in this instance have nothing to do with the individual beings' awareness of "WHO" they are, or in a mundane chart for a nation the collective awareness of "WHO" that society collectively is Because we are only concerned here with an Astrological Part and its "Personal Point") the individual would become aware at the given moment of a New Moon, that the Part of Spirit will then change from the Divine Precept revealed by the Sabian Symbol for the events Asc. to the preceding Tropical Zodiacal degree and its Divine Precept revealed by its Sabian Symbol and that this is a process that will continue on in the direction of Spiritual transformation that following the reverse direction through the Tropical Zodiac leads to. r.e. the freeing of oneself from the "Illusion", from "Maya". Ideally illustrated by the 360 Sabian Symbols from Virgo 30* through the next 359 degrees to Libra 01*

This kind of process is then achieved by those very advanced souls that are able to hold totally steadfast to the essence, the total awareness of "WHO" they came into the moment as, into the world as, and that don't let the mundane proceedings of one moment to the next alter their core being. Those Souls should then come to the realization that the core being does have to change but change in the manner as demonstrated by the procession of the Part of Soul, from New Moon to Full Moon, following the Sabian Symbols, i.e. those Divine Precepts, in the reverse order through the Tropical Zodiac.

Ideally the Part of Fortune would also be worked with as it progresses in the counter clockwise direction as to keep mundane affairs working to ones advantage. But that is also the way of becoming caught up in the Maya, materialism if one doesn't hold fast to the initial awareness they were born as [or as to national charts, the collective awareness of that nations society as to "WHAT", indicated by the Asc., when that particular event [the New Moon] occurred as.

At the culmination of the first half of the cycle, then, both the Part of Soul/Spirit and the Part of Fortune become ONE again, in perfect harmony with each other. Thus it is truly the righteous path of existence as one proceeds with their spiritual transformation, i.e. spiritual evolution, and at the same time proceeds with working with the Part of Fortune in their mundane affairs as the goal is, that ultimate destination given by the Desc. at the Full Moon is one and the same.

The only thing is, is that as the Asc. of the New Moon event is the fixed Precept in the consciousness using the New Moons' Asc. to derive the Part of Soul/Spirit at the Full Moon results in the Part of Soul/Spirit occurring in the exact coordinates of the Desc. at the time of the New Moon event.
In the case of the two charts of the New Moon and Full Moon event that followed it, given as examples below, The Part of Fortune then was exactly conj. some time before the Full Moon event occurred. In the matter pertaining to the last two such events, given as the examples here, that was 19 minutes and 49 seconds before the precise moment of the Full Moon event. i.e. when the Part of Fortune for a mundane chart cast for the location of Philadelphia occurred at 14* Scorpio 14' 52"

Here are the two charts for the most recent New Moon event, cast for the USA at Philadelphia, and the same for the Full Moon event that followed.

The New Moon event of March 17, 2018 cast for Philadelphia, Penn.
USA_New_Moon_3-17-2018.png



...the Full Moon event that followed on March 31, 2018 cast for Philadelphia, Penn.
USA_Full_Moon_3-31-2018.png



..and the chart for when the Part of Fortune was conj. the position of the New Moons' Desc. which actually occurred a little more than 0.33 of a second of time after the time this chart is cast for. One second later, at 8:17:02 the Part of Fortune was at 14* Scorpio 15' 08". It did indeed occur 19 minutes and 49 seconds before the exact moment of the Full Moon.
USA_Full_Moon_Po_Fortune_conj._New_Moon_Desc_3-31-2018.png


I apologize to Phoenix Venus for contradictory statements in another thread as I had not fully grasped what Dane Rudhyar was getting at at the time I posted those statements.

I have been a "little slow on the uptake" as of late, but in my own defense, it is a rather difficult concept to grasp in understanding... as evidenced by my obviously awkward attempt to illustrate it in explanation. Ill work on streamlining the explanation as to make it as concise and clear as possible...or maybe it might be better if I let someone else do it?
I've never been good with words. Even after writing nearly everyday these last eleven years from the book I wrote to near full time involvement on the internet in effort to bring it to the awareness and understanding of everyone I seemingly have made but little more than some rudimentary progress in improvement.


I am most impressed with Dane Rudhyar as for his ability to come to the realization and an understanding of such a complex but exquisitely beautiful process of the Cosmos as this is.

I am utterly awe struck by its design and intent. Truly it is profound evidence of Intelligent Design in Creation.
 
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piercethevale

piercethevale

Well-known member
So then, as for this latest cycle of the Moons' phases that began last March 17th, this nations' collective societys' awareness of being, being that of the Asc., along with the Part of Soul/Spirit and the Part of Fortune having all been conjunct in the 15th degree of Taurus we then have as that Tropical Zodiacal degrees' Divine Precept revealed through the Sabian Symbol found for that degree(from Dane Rudhyar's book on the Sabian Symbols, "An Astrological Mandala")

"TAURUS 15°: HEAD COVERED WITH A RAKISH SILK HAT, MUFFLED AGAINST THE COLD, A MAN BRAVES A STORM.

KEYNOTE: The courage needed to meet the crises precipitated by social ambition.

The man with the silk hat has seen some of his ambitious efforts bring him social success; but he learns that often 'nothing fails like success'. The storm may be within him, or it may attack his social status. He is ready to face it daringly. This shows a willingness to accept crises and to go through them — and therefore great character, the soil upon which a higher kind of consciousness may develop.

This is the fifth and final stage of this ninth five-fold sequence of symbols. It implies a transition to a new level at which the individual who has learned from experience demonstrates a truly mature mind. What is revealed here is CHARACTER under adverse circumstances."

...Becomes thus at the Full Moon a collective awareness of being as that of [given by the Asc. for the event chart] that Divine Precept that is revealed by the Sabian Symbol for the Tropical Zodiacal degree of the 22nd of Taurus [ibid.]

"TAURUS 22°: WHITE DOVE FLYING OVER TROUBLED WATERS.

KEYNOTE: The spiritual inspiration that comes to the individual in the overcoming of crisis.

Here also we are confronted with a symbol of guidance, and the dove flying over troubled waters reminds one of the story of Noah and the Ark. Noah met his and mankind's crisis courageously and in complete obedience to God's promptings. The test completed, he received the dove's message. It is a message from the Holy Spirit announcing a new Dispensation. This symbolic scene can be applied to personal crises resulting from emotional upheavals or from the irruption of unconscious forces and impulses into the consciousness — if the crisis has been faced in the right spirit.

This second stage symbol is in contrast to the preceding one because here it is not the product of a culture, a 'book', but instead the rhythm of cosmic, God-ordained cycles that reveals its conclusive beat through a living and concretely significant sign —a REWARD TO THE FAITHFUL."

...and during the 14 days of the hemi-cycle the Part of Soul, that awareness of the collective Soul of the nation had to proceed through a transformation that is illustrated by the Sabian Symbols in reverse order from Taurus 15* to Scorpio 15* and then meet with the Full Moon events' Part of Fortune at the 22nd degree of Scorpio.

[ibid.]
"SCORPIO 15°: CHILDREN PLAYING AROUND FIVE MOUNDS OF SAND.

KEYNOTE: Early steps in the development of a mind seeking to be attuned to the higher level of human evolution.

This is a particularly cryptic symbol. It may be deciphered if one realizes that Man's essential destiny is to develop as a five-fold being, a 'Pentagram' or five-pointed star. Number 5 symbolizes mind in its most creative and penetrating aspect, while number 4 refers to the life processes operating at present within the earth's biosphere. Our Western civilization has realized only the lower level of this vibration 5; i.e. mind contaminated by compulsive instincts and emotional involvement. Some individuals, however, are born with a special potential for development of the higher, creative mind, and in social circumstances favoring this development. In most cases, they are still 'playing around' with their unusual capacity. They are in the kindergarten stage of this higher mind development.

In this final stage of the forty-fifth sequence of five symbols the transcendent possibilities of mental evolution, which require interpersonal communion in consciousness, are evoked. The free spirit of true scientific inquiry is only a foreshadowing of such a type of mind, which demands dedication to mankind as a whole. What is seen here is FUTURE-ORIENTED GROWTH."



[ibid.]
"SCORPIO 22°: HUNTERS SHOOTING WILD DUCKS.
KEYNOTE:
The socially accepted release of an individual's or a group's aggressive instincts.

What this symbol clearly stresses is the socialization of man's primitive instincts according to a cultural ritual. Social hunting is a regulated seasonal outlet for male aggressiveness — a safety valve for emotional pressures in human beings in whom animal compulsions and bio-spheric values are still strong.

In this second stage symbol we find a strong contrast with the first. In the latter, the individual proved himself truly 'man' by refusing to accept the practices of war imposed upon him by his society; in this symbol for Scorpio 22° it is society that willingly accepts — and in accepting, ritualizes and to some extent refines — the aggressiveness inherent in most individuals. The Keywords are SOCIALIZATION OF INSTINCTS."

Now the question I have to ask is, does anyone else, besides me, think that there probably is some special significance to the degrees Scorpio 15 through 21?

I do find the Divine Precept, revealed in the Sabian Symbol found for the Tropical Zodiacal degree of Scorpio in the 21st to be most especially intriguing in light of the events that have taken place since last March 17th.

[ibid.]
"SCORPIO 21°: OBEYING HIS CONSCIENCE, A SOLDIER RESISTS ORDERS.

KEYNOTE: A readiness to face the results of a refusal to follow the authoritarian patterns of an aggressive society.

As a person finds himself involved in activities which are traditional in his particular culture — and in many instances in all societies at this stage of human evolution — he often faces a conflict between his own individual sense of value (his conscience) and the demands of society. The conflict may be most typical in terms of the armed services — thus this symbol. In it we find the individual asserting his own values, though he cannot escape the consequences of his decision. In such a case he has to be quietly ready to face these consequences, whatever the cost.

This is the first stage in the forty-seventh five-fold sequence of phases in the great cyclic ritual of activity. The issue it presents is clear. Society in this situation seems to be all-powerful; yet the individual need not be spiritually bound, even if imprisoned. He still can display INNER FREEDOM and prove himself an 'individual'."
 
Y

yuriv

Well-known member
Hello i noticed something, while using the day formula my part of fortune coincides with my part of spirit, is that actually possible based on calculations?
 
Y

yuriv

Well-known member
piercethevale said:
Yes, if you were born at exactly the New Moon.
Click to expand...

Yet i was born into to the First Quarter - if i were to do without the day formula calculations, my POF is 27° Virgo, with the day formula, it is 7° Aries same as part of spirit. I was born at night, so i wonder if that's part of the reason. I did read in your explanationa that it didn't matter. Anyways, it's still a conundrum for me. Could you point out where I might be missing it.
 
Y

yuriv

Well-known member
yuriv said:
Yet i was born into to the First Quarter - if i were to do without the day formula calculations, my POF is 27° Virgo, with the day formula, it is 7° Aries same as part of spirit. I was born at night, so i wonder if that's part of the reason. I did read in your explanationa that it didn't matter. Anyways, it's still a conundrum for me. Could you point out where I might be missing it.
Click to expand...

So i did a little working out of it by myself, using the day formula. The initial problem i pointed out to you might be down to a fault of astro dien

Working the day formula gives me a similar conjunction albeit not on the same degree.

POF given by astro - 7° Aries
POF i worked out - 9° Aries

Must one use the day formula for Part of Spirit and by extensions all arabian parts. Cause I suppose that is where my source of confusion is.
 
piercethevale

piercethevale

Well-known member
yuriv said:
So i did a little working out of it by myself, using the day formula. The initial problem i pointed out to you might be down to a fault of astro dien

Working the day formula gives me a similar conjunction albeit not on the same degree.

POF given by astro - 7° Aries
POF i worked out - 9° Aries

Must one use the day formula for Part of Spirit and by extensions all arabian parts. Cause I suppose that is where my source of confusion is.
Click to expand...

You should never use any "Night" formulae. That is a misconception promoted by "Traditional" astrologers. The only formula for a Part of Fortune is Asc. + Moon - Sun and the only formula for the Part of Spirit is Asc. + Sun - Moon.
Hence why the Part of Fortune and the Part of Spirit come out to be the same,...and will also be the same as the Ascendant is that at a New Moon , being that the Sun and Moon are in the Same Sign and degree they negate one another in both formulae.
That is true for only when they are exactly conjunct down to the very second of a degree. A slight difference will sometimes produce the two Parts in adjoining degrees, however.
Capiche?
 
Y

yuriv

Well-known member
piercethevale said:
You should never use any "Night" formulae. That is a misconception promoted by "Traditional" astrologers. The only formula for a Part of Fortune is Asc. + Moon - Sun and the only formula for the Part of Spirit is Asc. + Sun - Moon.
Hence why the Part of Fortune and the Part of Spirit come out to be the same,...and will also be the same as the Ascendant is that at a New Moon , being that the Sun and Moon are in the Same Sign and degree they negate one another in both formulae.
That is true for only when they are exactly conjunct down to the very second of a degree. A slight difference will sometimes produce the two Parts in adjoining degrees, however.
Capiche?
Click to expand...
Understood. Actually they are way apart - in opposite signs actually.
POS - 5° Virgo
POF - 13° Pisces.
What's the added significance of this points conjoining the angles. The POS conjoins my MC, POF conjoins IC. Personally I think that would mean added focus towards the issues of the 4H, since the path to MC will come naturally to me since it conjoins the POS.
What do you think? Should one treat these points separately or can they be interpreted in aspects, in this case a conjunction.

PS : I believe the 4H pertains to the personal unconscious, where one's soul comes from, one's root - the beginning.
The 10H i interpret simply as where one's path is moving to in life - the ending.

I am toying with the idea that the chart might be pointing me to think about traveling backwards - in reverse.

I perceive you are quite knowledgeable on this subject, had like to hear your thoughts on this.
 
piercethevale

piercethevale

Well-known member
yuriv said:
Understood. Actually they are way apart - in opposite signs actually.
POS - 5° Virgo
POF - 13° Pisces.
What's the added significance of this points conjoining the angles. The POS conjoins my MC, POF conjoins IC. Personally I think that would mean added focus towards the issues of the 4H, since the path to MC will come naturally to me since it conjoins the POS.
What do you think? Should one treat these points separately or can they be interpreted in aspects, in this case a conjunction.

PS : I believe the 4H pertains to the personal unconscious, where one's soul comes from, one's root - the beginning.
The 10H i interpret simply as where one's path is moving to in life - the ending.

I am toying with the idea that the chart might be pointing me to think about traveling backwards - in reverse.

I perceive you are quite knowledgeable on this subject, had like to hear your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
It has been to my life long experience and observation that astrological Parts are only affect and only of effect when they are conjunct with a transiting astronomical object or one of the four points of the chart axis. Within a one degree orb, that is. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the exact same degree...I don't think... but anything beyond that is definitely out...in my humble, but much experienced, opinion.

My PoF is in the exact same sign and degree as my natal M.C. As the M.C. is the HOW of ones natal chart in as much as it is in regard to ones ever continuous 'progressive, evolutionary, Spiritual transformation [through all incarnations] when the PoF is conjunct the M.C. the "HOW" of the transformation indicated and illustrated by the Sabian Symbolism for the Asc. to the Desc. [The "WHO" to the "WHERE-TO", or as I sometimes prefer to say, "WHOM-TO"] then by implementing the precept appropriately [in action, or by mental or cultural application, as those are the three types of precepts involved in the process of transformation according to Dane Rudhyar] you are directly working towards the desired process of transformation and providing yourself with the most fortuitous circumstances that will be provided by that precept as it is also the Part of Fortune...as that is what the Part of Fortune truly is. It is the means by which to provide yourself with the most "fortunate" resultant circumstances by which to complete your dharma, achieve your destiny, ti successfully make the step in the process of spiritual transformation to archetypal perfection that is the goal, the objective, given us by our Creator.

When the PoF is conj. the I.C., it becomes a part of the answer as to "WHY" you were given the precept symbolized by the Sign and degrees' of your Desc.'s Sabian Symbol. But the I.C. is also the "HOW" of the chart axis interpreted as to the mundane affairs of your life and to implement it for that purpose is nearly as auspicious, imho.

The affairs of, the purpose of, the Part of Spirit I have found to be much less clearly demonstrated as of yet... although I am rather convinced it is something that one should come to see how the precept symbolized by its Sabian symbol is relevant to your soul in this present incarnation.
As to whether being knowledgeable as such will provide anymore of an advantage as to mundane affairs I doubt somewhat and as to what advantage it might help you along in the process of Spiritual transformation I can only surmise that it certainly wouldn't hurt and from what I've been able to tell from my own Part of Spirit and that I derived from that chart I believe to be truly that of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth, I have to say it does most definitely make the going easier as it instills confidence, resolution of cause, surety of commitment, and is a sort of certification of your spiritual worth, provided by the knowledge that is given.

My Part of Soul/Spirit is in the 10th degree of Aquarius [ibid.]

" A MAN WHO HAD FOR A TIME BECOME THE EMBODIMENT OF A POPULAR IDEAL IS MADE TO REALIZE THAT AS A PERSON HE IS NOT THIS IDEAL.

KEYNOTE: The need to deal with human beings as persons rather than as screens upon which one projects one's dream and ideal.

Here we have a final statement on the relationship between mental-spiritual vision and living reality, between persons and the ideal they appear to incarnate, between the 'great lover Image' and one's need for love — a love his presence stimulated and aroused. The 'star' on the movie screen is not the actual person. The star's popularity fades away, the person remains. What has this episode of popularity actually done to the person? This is a question that can be applied to a great variety of circumstances.

This fifth symbol in the sixty-second sequence brings to our attention an issue that is basic and may confront us in various forms. Person versus archetype. This can mean a critical need for SELF-REVALUATION."

I learned of the Part of Soul derived from my natal chart and what the Sabian Symbol for the degree it is found in the first week I was introduced to true astrological techniques and knowledge back in August of 1984. I could never figure out just what it meant as it applied to me ...not until after I was given a number of signs and confirmation by two very talented and most reputable clairvoyants ... that I am the one Rudolf Steiner predicted that would be reincarnated just before the dawn of the 21st century, that Trevor Ravenscroft wrote of in his book, "The Cup of Destiny".

As all my adult life I have been known as "Painter Dave" to so many, as painting was my trade and I was doggone good at it...my father having been a Master painter and an accomplished artist. I had no reason to suspect that I would ever be anything else...at least not notably so.

Little did I know....!

So, did that help me in any way?

Yes, I have to say it has ...as it is all the more confirmation as to what those signs indicated, what the clairvoyants told me and I have accomplished what was predicted...at least as far as I know I have...maybe I've more yet to contribute... but it certainly helps instill confidence, resolve, and belief in my self and this "path" I've recognized to have been laid out before me.

It may not always be a clear cut path or one that even shows the next step clearly, at times, but I know from where that path arose and to what cause it has been dedicated to... and that is enough to keep me in steadfast belief... That and I do have a Scorpio Asc. and a Taurus Sun by Tropical Zodiac interpretation... and while I believe in only in Sidereal recognition and interpretation there are those astrologers among us that will at least admit to my being most stubborn and persistent, if to nothing else I claim to be or have achieved,. and so you can take you pick as to which is the responsible agent behind my actions.

So, to sum up. One can readily implement what the Divine precept found in the Sabian Symbol for their Part of Fortune is, and be assured that if it is found to be conjunct one of the four axis points it is most auspicious and all more to your greater benefit to do so... but the Part of Soul might not be so readily understood and likely won't be until some point in your life time. I was in my fifty secondth year before I had a clue.

Just also keep in mind that most birth times recorded by hospitals have been rounded up to the nearest minute. A difference of a few seconds either way can change a significant number of Astrological Parts from one degree and association with a particular precept symbolized by the Sabian Symbol found for that degree to another entirely different one. So what you presently believe to be conjoined [which I take it to mean you are saying they are adjacent, either succedent or precedent?] may in fact actually be conjunct.

I have found that chart rectification is most aptly achieved by the use of the Sabian Symbols as to what might be the more appropriate in regard to those Astrological Parts one has that are closest to the cusp of the next or previous degree.

For example. The Part of Fortune derived from that aforementioned chart I attest to be the true natal chart of Yeshua/Jesus of Nazareth is in the 19th degree of Pisces. [ibid.] "A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE" ...it was found to be well within that degree but had it been close to either cusp would you have thought it should then be a birth time of earlier or later estimation?
Given what the Sabian Symbols are for the 18th and 20th degree of Pisces I would certainly hope that you would realize that, NO, can only be in the 19th of Pisces... but that's how you test and make rectifications.
You might likely find such an Astrological Part that you can be confident of its certain influence, such as that of the Part of Fortune, and be given two choices as to Sabian Symbols that are of possible effect and of the two only one is unmistakably that intended for yourself.
It can also come down to where a second or two changes the alignment of your chart axis too... and that could change the "WHO", "WHERE-TO", "HOW" and "WHY" of your horoscope as well as that of what the symbolism of the Part of Fortune or any other Astrological Part that is derived from a formula that includes the Asc. in its calculation or any of the House Cusps, for that matter.

From the process I've described above I was able to determine that I was born 16 seconds earlier than the time stated on my birth certificate. It didn't change my chart axis or Part of Fortune or Part of Soul but it was a qquestion of what my true Part of Innocence, aka Part of Naivete, is and whether is is in the 12th of Libra or the 11th.
As the Part of Innocence or Naivete is derived from the formula that is opposite that of the Part of Intelligence & Skill, r.e. that which is of your intelligence that you have the ability to most skillfully apply., then it must be interpreted as that which you at at a loss as how to apply or utilize. The word, "clueless" comes to my mind.
As the 12th of Libra has a Sabian Symbol as being such [ibid.] " MINERS ARE SURFACING FROM A DEEP COAL MINE.
KEYNOTE: The need to carry on at ever-deeper levels the quest for knowledge which keeps burning the fires of the collective mind of a society.
...the coal miner brings to the surface the ancient remains of what once was living substance. Keyword: EXTRACTION." ...and I've certainly had not the least bit of trouble in pursuing and applying that in my life ...as that is basically my endeavor with astrology is all about... finding the ancient knowledge, the long buried and forgotten thing it once was.
So, then what of the 11th degree of Libra... which is what I get for my Part of Innocence when I move my time of birth back a few seconds...?
[ibid.]
"A PROFESSOR PEERING OVER HIS GLASSES AT HIS STUDENTS.

KEYNOTE: Problems attending the transmission of knowledge in a special cultural setup.

This is a rather peculiar symbol for this phase of the process, and it reveals a rather humorous approach to what man's mind can accomplish at this stage. However, there seems to be no valid reason to make the image into some kind of a caricature, or to sentimentalize it by referring to a 'kind old professor'. Rather one should analyze the picture in order to discover its basic elements. The professor has dealt so much with books that he has greatly strained his eyes; in days when bifocal lenses were not widely used, he had to peer over his glasses in order to see his students. The symbol thus simply reveals two aspects of the condition of 'professor-ship' — that is, of being able to transfer to the young generation the vast sum of knowledge accumulated by the past. The need to absorb this enormous amount of book knowledge affects the mind as well as the eyes; in order to meet the demands of the turbulent youth, the teacher in a sense has to look above this knowledge and to see his students simply as human beings.

This is the first symbol in the thirty-ninth five-fold sequence. It deals at the intellectual level with the teaching of accumulated collective knowledge, and the problem posed by the acquisition of that knowledge. This is what INSTRUCTION means — a process not to be confused with 'education'."

...and BINGO ...there it is... of this I haven't the least bit of doubt as to my being an "instructor" is that which I am the least cut out to do... I have the darndest time trying to explain how this stuff works and why to anyone... I just know it does and can see it...I can even "feel it", if that makes any sense to you? But, I can't really explain it.
While I have Math, spatial comprehension, and mechanical reasoning abilities measured to be among the highest found that have ever been tested my verbal skills are but that of your average Joe and trying to explain what I am able to comprehend in the one realm by means of the other leaves me dumbfounded for the better part of most of the time.

i can only hope that I at least did an adequate job of it here in this post today... and did serve to further your understanding rather than hinder it?
 
Somna7H

Somna7H

Banned
I never understood the the use of POF in predictive ways. My POF in Gemini 2nd House and exactly Conjunct with Venus and Moon.
 
Y

yuriv

Well-known member
piercethevale said:
It has been to my life long experience and observation that astrological Parts are only affect and only of effect when they are conjunct with a transiting astronomical object or one of the four points of the chart axis. Within a one degree orb, that is. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the exact same degree...I don't think... but anything beyond that is definitely out...in my humble, but much experienced, opinion.

My PoF is in the exact same sign and degree as my natal M.C. As the M.C. is the HOW of ones natal chart in as much as it is in regard to ones ever continuous 'progressive, evolutionary, Spiritual transformation [through all incarnations] when the PoF is conjunct the M.C. the "HOW" of the transformation indicated and illustrated by the Sabian Symbolism for the Asc. to the Desc. [The "WHO" to the "WHERE-TO", or as I sometimes prefer to say, "WHOM-TO"] then by implementing the precept appropriately [in action, or by mental or cultural application, as those are the three types of precepts involved in the process of transformation according to Dane Rudhyar] you are directly working towards the desired process of transformation and providing yourself with the most fortuitous circumstances that will be provided by that precept as it is also the Part of Fortune...as that is what the Part of Fortune truly is. It is the means by which to provide yourself with the most "fortunate" resultant circumstances by which to complete your dharma, achieve your destiny, ti successfully make the step in the process of spiritual transformation to archetypal perfection that is the goal, the objective, given us by our Creator.

When the PoF is conj. the I.C., it becomes a part of the answer as to "WHY" you were given the precept symbolized by the Sign and degrees' of your Desc.'s Sabian Symbol. But the I.C. is also the "HOW" of the chart axis interpreted as to the mundane affairs of your life and to implement it for that purpose is nearly as auspicious, imho.

The affairs of, the purpose of, the Part of Spirit I have found to be much less clearly demonstrated as of yet... although I am rather convinced it is something that one should come to see how the precept symbolized by its Sabian symbol is relevant to your soul in this present incarnation.
As to whether being knowledgeable as such will provide anymore of an advantage as to mundane affairs I doubt somewhat and as to what advantage it might help you along in the process of Spiritual transformation I can only surmise that it certainly wouldn't hurt and from what I've been able to tell from my own Part of Spirit and that I derived from that chart I believe to be truly that of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth, I have to say it does most definitely make the going easier as it instills confidence, resolution of cause, surety of commitment, and is a sort of certification of your spiritual worth, provided by the knowledge that is given.

My Part of Soul/Spirit is in the 10th degree of Aquarius [ibid.]

" A MAN WHO HAD FOR A TIME BECOME THE EMBODIMENT OF A POPULAR IDEAL IS MADE TO REALIZE THAT AS A PERSON HE IS NOT THIS IDEAL.

KEYNOTE: The need to deal with human beings as persons rather than as screens upon which one projects one's dream and ideal.

Here we have a final statement on the relationship between mental-spiritual vision and living reality, between persons and the ideal they appear to incarnate, between the 'great lover Image' and one's need for love — a love his presence stimulated and aroused. The 'star' on the movie screen is not the actual person. The star's popularity fades away, the person remains. What has this episode of popularity actually done to the person? This is a question that can be applied to a great variety of circumstances.

This fifth symbol in the sixty-second sequence brings to our attention an issue that is basic and may confront us in various forms. Person versus archetype. This can mean a critical need for SELF-REVALUATION."

I learned of the Part of Soul derived from my natal chart and what the Sabian Symbol for the degree it is found in the first week I was introduced to true astrological techniques and knowledge back in August of 1984. I could never figure out just what it meant as it applied to me ...not until after I was given a number of signs and confirmation by two very talented and most reputable clairvoyants ... that I am the one Rudolf Steiner predicted that would be reincarnated just before the dawn of the 21st century, that Trevor Ravenscroft wrote of in his book, "The Cup of Destiny".

As all my adult life I have been known as "Painter Dave" to so many, as painting was my trade and I was doggone good at it...my father having been a Master painter and an accomplished artist. I had no reason to suspect that I would ever be anything else...at least not notably so.

Little did I know....!

So, did that help me in any way?

Yes, I have to say it has ...as it is all the more confirmation as to what those signs indicated, what the clairvoyants told me and I have accomplished what was predicted...at least as far as I know I have...maybe I've more yet to contribute... but it certainly helps instill confidence, resolve, and belief in my self and this "path" I've recognized to have been laid out before me.

It may not always be a clear cut path or one that even shows the next step clearly, at times, but I know from where that path arose and to what cause it has been dedicated to... and that is enough to keep me in steadfast belief... That and I do have a Scorpio Asc. and a Taurus Sun by Tropical Zodiac interpretation... and while I believe in only in Sidereal recognition and interpretation there are those astrologers among us that will at least admit to my being most stubborn and persistent, if to nothing else I claim to be or have achieved,. and so you can take you pick as to which is the responsible agent behind my actions.

So, to sum up. One can readily implement what the Divine precept found in the Sabian Symbol for their Part of Fortune is, and be assured that if it is found to be conjunct one of the four axis points it is most auspicious and all more to your greater benefit to do so... but the Part of Soul might not be so readily understood and likely won't be until some point in your life time. I was in my fifty secondth year before I had a clue.

Just also keep in mind that most birth times recorded by hospitals have been rounded up to the nearest minute. A difference of a few seconds either way can change a significant number of Astrological Parts from one degree and association with a particular precept symbolized by the Sabian Symbol found for that degree to another entirely different one. So what you presently believe to be conjoined [which I take it to mean you are saying they are adjacent, either succedent or precedent?] may in fact actually be conjunct.

I have found that chart rectification is most aptly achieved by the use of the Sabian Symbols as to what might be the more appropriate in regard to those Astrological Parts one has that are closest to the cusp of the next or previous degree.

For example. The Part of Fortune derived from that aforementioned chart I attest to be the true natal chart of Yeshua/Jesus of Nazareth is in the 19th degree of Pisces. [ibid.] "A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE" ...it was found to be well within that degree but had it been close to either cusp would you have thought it should then be a birth time of earlier or later estimation?
Given what the Sabian Symbols are for the 18th and 20th degree of Pisces I would certainly hope that you would realize that, NO, can only be in the 19th of Pisces... but that's how you test and make rectifications.
You might likely find such an Astrological Part that you can be confident of its certain influence, such as that of the Part of Fortune, and be given two choices as to Sabian Symbols that are of possible effect and of the two only one is unmistakably that intended for yourself.
It can also come down to where a second or two changes the alignment of your chart axis too... and that could change the "WHO", "WHERE-TO", "HOW" and "WHY" of your horoscope as well as that of what the symbolism of the Part of Fortune or any other Astrological Part that is derived from a formula that includes the Asc. in its calculation or any of the House Cusps, for that matter.

From the process I've described above I was able to determine that I was born 16 seconds earlier than the time stated on my birth certificate. It didn't change my chart axis or Part of Fortune or Part of Soul but it was a qquestion of what my true Part of Innocence, aka Part of Naivete, is and whether is is in the 12th of Libra or the 11th.
As the Part of Innocence or Naivete is derived from the formula that is opposite that of the Part of Intelligence & Skill, r.e. that which is of your intelligence that you have the ability to most skillfully apply., then it must be interpreted as that which you at at a loss as how to apply or utilize. The word, "clueless" comes to my mind.
As the 12th of Libra has a Sabian Symbol as being such [ibid.] " MINERS ARE SURFACING FROM A DEEP COAL MINE.
KEYNOTE: The need to carry on at ever-deeper levels the quest for knowledge which keeps burning the fires of the collective mind of a society.
...the coal miner brings to the surface the ancient remains of what once was living substance. Keyword: EXTRACTION." ...and I've certainly had not the least bit of trouble in pursuing and applying that in my life ...as that is basically my endeavor with astrology is all about... finding the ancient knowledge, the long buried and forgotten thing it once was.
So, then what of the 11th degree of Libra... which is what I get for my Part of Innocence when I move my time of birth back a few seconds...?
[ibid.]
"A PROFESSOR PEERING OVER HIS GLASSES AT HIS STUDENTS.

KEYNOTE: Problems attending the transmission of knowledge in a special cultural setup.

This is a rather peculiar symbol for this phase of the process, and it reveals a rather humorous approach to what man's mind can accomplish at this stage. However, there seems to be no valid reason to make the image into some kind of a caricature, or to sentimentalize it by referring to a 'kind old professor'. Rather one should analyze the picture in order to discover its basic elements. The professor has dealt so much with books that he has greatly strained his eyes; in days when bifocal lenses were not widely used, he had to peer over his glasses in order to see his students. The symbol thus simply reveals two aspects of the condition of 'professor-ship' — that is, of being able to transfer to the young generation the vast sum of knowledge accumulated by the past. The need to absorb this enormous amount of book knowledge affects the mind as well as the eyes; in order to meet the demands of the turbulent youth, the teacher in a sense has to look above this knowledge and to see his students simply as human beings.

This is the first symbol in the thirty-ninth five-fold sequence. It deals at the intellectual level with the teaching of accumulated collective knowledge, and the problem posed by the acquisition of that knowledge. This is what INSTRUCTION means — a process not to be confused with 'education'."

...and BINGO ...there it is... of this I haven't the least bit of doubt as to my being an "instructor" is that which I am the least cut out to do... I have the darndest time trying to explain how this stuff works and why to anyone... I just know it does and can see it...I can even "feel it", if that makes any sense to you? But, I can't really explain it.
While I have Math, spatial comprehension, and mechanical reasoning abilities measured to be among the highest found that have ever been tested my verbal skills are but that of your average Joe and trying to explain what I am able to comprehend in the one realm by means of the other leaves me dumbfounded for the better part of most of the time.

i can only hope that I at least did an adequate job of it here in this post today... and did serve to further your understanding rather than hinder it?
Click to expand...
Yeah i do agree the degree of symbols can be useful pointers in understanding one's birth time, In my own case I have learnt one or two from fiddling with what my birth time could be while studying the degree symbols therein to see which resonates. The catch that i found to be pulling at the outset was of course the similarities of the degrees in each phase, for a while I was at sea with myself, seeing myself in each degree made it a little cumbersome as well as fun too, cause it shows one is made up of so much more - more! Yet there is always a need for a base point. Amazingly my base point remains to be my given birth date.
Giving my ascendant degree.
Sag 8 : “Opals splintering and releasing colors." The degree suggests a mutability - a tendency to split in different directions. Of course as i said this sort of expansiveness ia challenging - there seems to be a lack of given direction. Yet the beauty therein is the colors - the multitudes of colors to go along with the many splints in different directions. This degree offers that beauty. I find it interesting too that the word is opals - not opal too.
The phase here is : ENOUGH IS NEVER ENOUGH.

Looking at the where to :
Gemini 8 : “The factory machines all pause for a moment. A celestial choir is being heard.” This degree looks straightforward enough. Factory machines : The mechanical - is this refering to the mechanical mind ( gemini). A pause for the mechanical mind - This is no grinding to a halt, seems more like a stopping (pause) of its volition. The pause even suggests it might even carry on after the celestial choir is done. For it to pause then indicates an awareness of the heavenly - the divine. Factory machines also alludes to multiple voices-noises. The celestial choir is inspirational - calming.
The phase here is - FAREWELL TO ARMS.

Back to my WHY - which is where i have the DSC - POF conjunction. I noted you also said that it also explains the HOW of the mundane as well. Is there a cyclical connection you are alluding to? In the sense that could one use the ASC - which is the WHO - to also explain the WHY as well?


I did have to read your post a few times, that's no problem for me however, i understand where you are coming from. Personally I feel like I am at a stage in astrology where i need to discuss what I have learnt so far. I hope you will indulge me as well.
 
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