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Unread 03-28-2013, 05:33 PM
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An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

Greetings.
This unusual [to me, anyways] 3 point matrix came up in a timeline study. It's not from a natal chart but that shouldn't matter as to any deliberations on the issue.
This will occur on March 4th, in 2015 [March Forth...I kind of like that!].
If you'll kindly check out the attached chart you'll notice a Venus/Uranus conj. in Aries in Trine to Jupiter in Leo. Jupiter in an inconjunct aspect to Pluto in Capricorn which in turn is square to the Venus/Uranus conjunction.

...any thoughts about or prior experience with this type of configuration?

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Unread 03-28-2013, 05:40 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

Greetings PTV!

In Huber astrology, this would be classified as a Dominant Learning Triangle. Unfortunately I'm not near my references at the moment. In the mean time here's a link that has some info:
http://home.online.no/~kafox/astrology/Huber.html

Last edited by StillOne; 03-30-2013 at 02:51 AM. Reason: had wrong name for aspect pattern
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Unread 03-28-2013, 05:52 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

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Originally Posted by StillOne View Post
Greetings PTV!

In Huber astrology, this would be classified as a Large Learning Triangle. Unfortunately I'm not near my references at the moment. In the mean time here's a link that has some info:
http://home.online.no/~kafox/astrology/Huber.html
Thank you very much!
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Unread 03-28-2013, 05:57 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

So, which planet[s] would one begin with in this interpretation? [my instincts say Pluto...
...although I would like to say the conj. in Aries square to Pluto and finish with the Jupiter in Leo to Aries trine.]
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Unread 03-28-2013, 06:04 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
So, which planet[s] would one begin with in this interpretation? [my instincts say Pluto...
...although I would like to say the conj. in Aries square to Pluto and finish with the Jupiter in Leo to Aries trine.]
You are correct in that the pattern is read in a particular direction... However, since I don't have my books at the moment I can't advise you. Hopefully I'll be able to later today.
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Unread 03-28-2013, 06:41 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

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You are correct in that the pattern is read in a particular direction... However, since I don't have my books at the moment I can't advise you. Hopefully I'll be able to later today.
I find this Huber method most intriguing! The directional process is in harmony with the Theosophist's "Esoteric School"... of which I'm not a practitioner but rather one that has found some very useful 'truths' within their philosophies concerning Astrology.
I look forward to your reply.
Thanks again...ptv
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Unread 03-29-2013, 04:43 AM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

Wow...a shiver just ran up my spine.
As I was perusing the last two charts I posted as attachments, I saw in the August 2014, Jupiter conj. the N. Node chart that Saturn was not only on my Asc. [which I had made a mental note of yesterday...but the focus at the time was on the USA's natal chart.]

I just realized it will be in the exact sort of odd Trine configuration as that of the other chart...only this trine has Uranus, at 16* Aries 17' conj. by very close orb to my natal Venus at 15* Aries 06'...and Lilith is the other point ...YIKES...
Saturn, Uranus and Lilith...oH mY...! [and Lilith at 18* Leo 19' conj. my natal Pluto at 20* Leo 48' and mid-haven at 24* Leo 21'...]

So going by my own rule of thumb it begins with the Scorpio-Saturn Square Lilith in Leo conj. Pluto...which proceeds in Trine to Uranus in Aries... and finishes with an inconjunct back to Saturn...

...hmmmm..!?!
I don't think I like the sound of that...

p.s. the USA natal chart mentioned is the zero hr. July 4, 1776 Philadelphia chart
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Jupite conj. USA N. Node August 2014.jpg (85.0 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by piercethevale; 03-29-2013 at 11:54 PM. Reason: I mentioned I had also posted in another sub forum, which I didn't
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Unread 03-29-2013, 05:01 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

Actually, according to Huber astrology this is known as a Dominant Learning Triangle. It differs from the other 3 learning triangles by including the central core of the chart.

Background:

The three-coloured figures are typical learning or development figures in which the third color (i.e. green) plays an important role. The green aspects which have an affinity with the mutable cross (or contact cross) are added to the red aspects, which correspond to the cardinal cross (or impulse cross) and the blue aspects which are associated with the fixed cross (or substance cross). This therefore brings a third point of view into the equation, which, for better or worse supersedes the polarised thinking of the red and blue aspects with a third pole. Green aspects allow an escape from black-or-white thinking and a search for causes, possible solutions and meaning.

Quincunx aspect
With the quincunx, the information of the small green aspect (semi-sextile) is classified and integrated with the greater whole until the connections are understood. As a "large thinking step", it develops a micro-macrocosmic way of thinking based on the hermetic principle "as above, so below". The person questions the meaning of existence, searches for causes and motivations and has a better understanding of different kinds of human behavior. This mind-expanding aspect encourages psychological thinking, the understanding of connections and allows the discovery of the meaning or purpose of things.

Crisis Mechanism
There are three phases to the crisis mechanism: red-green-blue in line with the aspect sequence. The dynamic process starts with the red aspect (square). The point of conflict is where the red and blue aspects touch each other. The calm and balanced, pleasure-seeking state of the blue aspect is disturbed or irritated, causing tension or conflict and some kind of decision or effort must be made. The old state is no longer tenable, a problem has arisen that must be solved.

It is a development spiral that aims to get another point of view with every completed transition. Every passage through the three phases and each one of these crises contains the possibility of finding solutions that previously did not exist. If one inwardly recognises the opportunities, then development is likely. If one treats the crises as mere disruptions, the development process will be blocked. Communication and the provision of information usually lead to new experiences (green aspect). The person is always ready to experiment, and the newly acquired discoveries lead them to try to establish a new harmonious state in a still unsure position (green-blue contact point), which meets the requirements of the initial problem.

So this process would seem to be complete. But only until a new problem comes along and the crises mechanism gets going again: conflict - striving for solution - harmonization. The Learning triangle is more directly involved than any other aspect figure in this development spiral. If there is more than one Learning triangle in a scope, the person concerned can find himself undergoing different processes at the same time, which complicates the overview and the understanding. If there is only one Learning triangle in the scope, a clear theme takes shape that can be defined very precisely by the three planets. The basic attitude and motivation towards the development process and its theme can be deduced from the aspect situated nearest to the central core.

Rotation Direction
If we look closely, we can see that the color sequence red-green-blue can run both right and left. If we start at the blue-green corner and go along the red line, we find two different rotation directions. The learning process takes much longer in a clockwise direction than in an anti clockwise direction. In our experience, this is not so significant in the Small Learning triangle as it is with the Dominant triangle in which the central core is enclosed. The direct or retrograde rotation direction means a faster or slower cognition process.

Rotation Direction of the Dominant Triangle
It is given by the color order, from red to green to blue. We start at the red-blue corner then go along the red line, come to the green line and finally to the third point which is the green-blue corner.

Dominant Triangle
The Dominant triangle is fundamentally different from the three other Learning triangles in that it encompasses the center of the scope that symbolizes the core personality. This means that the whole personality is affected by problems of growth. This does not just affect one partial area, as in the case of the other triangles, but influences all areas of life. The small figures are much more flexible than the large ones. They are the expression of processes that run over and over again at a relatively fast rate, so that experiencing events and processes is more important than the actual nature of these events, which seem to be interchangeable. It is different for the larger figures that encompass the center. In the case of the Dominant triangle, the processes are often slower and therefore more profound and radical, but still relating to growth and transformation. The question of freedom is much more important here than in the smaller triangles, which are in closer communication with and therefore more dependent on the environment.

Creativity
There is a pronounced creative quality in the Dominant triangle, thus, in the case of successful problem-solving, producing a personality with a stronger influence and dominance in the environment. But there is a long journey to get that far, as to successfully resolve problems, the individual has to devle into the source of his ego, which means that resolution, liberation and objectives can only be obtained from the core of his own personality... the basic problems of the Dominant triangle are the form and content of self-expression and the formation of the personality. The ego aligns itself to the trine, which possesses experiences, cognition and perspective. The theme of the square usually contradicts this and indicates the direction in which a transformation should take place and where efforts should be made.

Change and Transformation
The cognitive abilities are often put to the test here and a qualitative change in the active, achievement-oriented self-expression is called for. Changes of motive and transformations are the order of the day for long periods. A regular and drastic experience of conflict (square) is due to the experience of the personal inadequacy vis a vis a certain problem, from which one decides to deal with it. Now begins the process of the great search (quincunx), which often entails a revision of one's self image.

Cognition Triangle (Direct)
A counter clockwise rotation direction, ie in the order of the zodiac, it is the cosmic direction in which discoveries can be made rapidly. As a direct Cognition triangle it provides the necessary insight when crises appear. The task to be learned is understood and intelligence is used to find a solution. With time, one learns how to control and accelerate the process. An active, positive attitude towards the theme makes it easier to resolve.

Experience Triangle (Retrograde)
If the rotation direction is clockwise, ie the same direction as the earth and the opposite direction of the zodiac, it is a retrograde Experience triangle. Here the appropriate experience must be made many more times than in the other direction. The person does not adapt as easily as in the case of the Cognition triangle and experiences the same theme for as long as it takes to learn the lesson. Many take half a lifetime to deal with a deep-seated problem.

Source: Aspect Pattern Astrology, Bruno and Louise Huber, Michael Alexander Huber. 1999
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Unread 03-29-2013, 06:21 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne View Post
Actually, according to Huber astrology this is known as a Dominant Learning Triangle. It differs from the other 3 learning triangles by including the central core of the chart.

Background:

The three-coloured figures are typical learning or development figures in which the third color (i.e. green) plays an important role. The green aspects which have an affinity with the mutable cross (or contact cross) are added to the red aspects, which correspond to the cardinal cross (or impulse cross) and the blue aspects which are associated with the fixed cross (or substance cross). This therefore brings a third point of view into the equation, which, for better or worse supersedes the polarised thinking of the red and blue aspects with a third pole. Green aspects allow an escape from black-or-white thinking and a search for causes, possible solutions and meaning.

Quincunx aspect
With the quincunx, the information of the small green aspect (semi-sextile) is classified and integrated with the greater whole until the connections are understood. As a "large thinking step", it develops a micro-macrocosmic way of thinking based on the hermetic principle "as above, so below". The person questions the meaning of existence, searches for causes and motivations and has a better understanding of different kinds of human behavior. This mind-expanding aspect encourages psychological thinking, the understanding of connections and allows the discovery of the meaning or purpose of things.

Crisis Mechanism
There are three phases to the crisis mechanism: red-green-blue in line with the aspect sequence. The dynamic process starts with the red aspect (square). The point of conflict is where the red and blue aspects touch each other. The calm and balanced, pleasure-seeking state of the blue aspect is disturbed or irritated, causing tension or conflict and some kind of decision or effort must be made. The old state is no longer tenable, a problem has arisen that must be solved.

It is a development spiral that aims to get another point of view with every completed transition. Every passage through the three phases and each one of these crises contains the possibility of finding solutions that previously did not exist. If one inwardly recognises the opportunities, then development is likely. If one treats the crises as mere disruptions, the development process will be blocked. Communication and the provision of information usually lead to new experiences (green aspect). The person is always ready to experiment, and the newly acquired discoveries lead them to try to establish a new harmonious state in a still unsure position (green-blue contact point), which meets the requirements of the initial problem.

So this process would seem to be complete. But only until a new problem comes along and the crises mechanism gets going again: conflict - striving for solution - harmonization. The Learning triangle is more directly involved than any other aspect figure in this development spiral. If there is more than one Learning triangle in a scope, the person concerned can find himself undergoing different processes at the same time, which complicates the overview and the understanding. If there is only one Learning triangle in the scope, a clear theme takes shape that can be defined very precisely by the three planets. The basic attitude and motivation towards the development process and its theme can be deduced from the aspect situated nearest to the central core.

Rotation Direction
If we look closely, we can see that the color sequence red-green-blue can run both right and left. If we start at the blue-green corner and go along the red line, we find two different rotation directions. The learning process takes much longer in a clockwise direction than in an anti clockwise direction. In our experience, this is not so significant in the Small Learning triangle as it is with the Dominant triangle in which the central core is enclosed. The direct or retrograde rotation direction means a faster or slower cognition process.

Rotation Direction of the Dominant Triangle
It is given by the color order, from red to green to blue. We start at the red-blue corner then go along the red line, come to the green line and finally to the third point which is the green-blue corner.

Dominant Triangle
The Dominant triangle is fundamentally different from the three other Learning triangles in that it encompasses the center of the scope that symbolizes the core personality. This means that the whole personality is affected by problems of growth. This does not just affect one partial area, as in the case of the other triangles, but influences all areas of life. The small figures are much more flexible than the large ones. They are the expression of processes that run over and over again at a relatively fast rate, so that experiencing events and processes is more important than the actual nature of these events, which seem to be interchangeable. It is different for the larger figures that encompass the center. In the case of the Dominant triangle, the processes are often slower and therefore more profound and radical, but still relating to growth and transformation. The question of freedom is much more important here than in the smaller triangles, which are in closer communication with and therefore more dependent on the environment.

Creativity
There is a pronounced creative quality in the Dominant triangle, thus, in the case of successful problem-solving, producing a personality with a stronger influence and dominance in the environment. But there is a long journey to get that far, as to successfully resolve problems, the individual has to devle into the source of his ego, which means that resolution, liberation and objectives can only be obtained from the core of his own personality... the basic problems of the Dominant triangle are the form and content of self-expression and the formation of the personality. The ego aligns itself to the trine, which possesses experiences, cognition and perspective. The theme of the square usually contradicts this and indicates the direction in which a transformation should take place and where efforts should be made.

Change and Transformation
The cognitive abilities are often put to the test here and a qualitative change in the active, achievement-oriented self-expression is called for. Changes of motive and transformations are the order of the day for long periods. A regular and drastic experience of conflict (square) is due to the experience of the personal inadequacy vis a vis a certain problem, from which one decides to deal with it. Now begins the process of the great search (quincunx), which often entails a revision of one's self image.

Cognition Triangle (Direct)
A counter clockwise rotation direction, ie in the order of the zodiac, it is the cosmic direction in which discoveries can be made rapidly. As a direct Cognition triangle it provides the necessary insight when crises appear. The task to be learned is understood and intelligence is used to find a solution. With time, one learns how to control and accelerate the process. An active, positive attitude towards the theme makes it easier to resolve.

Experience Triangle (Retrograde)
If the rotation direction is clockwise, ie the same direction as the earth and the opposite direction of the zodiac, it is a retrograde Experience triangle. Here the appropriate experience must be made many more times than in the other direction. The person does not adapt as easily as in the case of the Cognition triangle and experiences the same theme for as long as it takes to learn the lesson. Many take half a lifetime to deal with a deep-seated problem.

Source: Aspect Pattern Astrology, Bruno and Louise Huber, Michael Alexander Huber. 1999
That's a lot to study and think about, and to adapt it to mundane interpretations poses a challenge. I have only had time today to read through this once ...and rather quickly...but it seems as if it is just trying to fine tune "Trad." natal astrological understanding.
As for my self I like to keep it simple...one can only spend so much time in study...and Spring is in full bloom here. I'll keep this "on the shelf" and keep studying it but it'll be quite some time before I can draw any real conclusions.
Thanks so much for replying, the links and the info.
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Unread 03-29-2013, 06:27 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

The Torah [Old Testament], according to Rabbi Dobin in his book, "Kabbalistic Astrology", states there are two kinds of Astrologers. Those that divide up the Heavens and those that 'get it' from meditating on the entire picture and that the latter is superior to to former as for seeking counsel from.
Not everyone is 'wired' to be of the second type... you're either born with it or not, apparently.
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Unread 03-29-2013, 09:36 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
That's a lot to study and think about, and to adapt it to mundane interpretations poses a challenge. I have only had time today to read through this once ...and rather quickly...but it seems as if it is just trying to fine tune "Trad." natal astrological understanding.
Indeed PTV, this is a lot of info. I decided to type it out for both our benefits since I have quite a number of these in my chart and so it would help me learn. I included more information than was necessary for additional insight as I will link this thread to those who may benefit from information on this structure.

If anyone is able to take it to the Mundane level, I think it would be you!


Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
As for my self I like to keep it simple...one can only spend so much time in study...and Spring is in full bloom here. I'll keep this "on the shelf" and keep studying it but it'll be quite some time before I can draw any real conclusions.
Thanks so much for replying, the links and the info.
You are welcome. I think your main question relies on which direction it should be interpreted in. So it seems, IMO, the point of contact of the Red and Blue aspects to be the start (crisis), and then the Green Qcx for contemplation and finally the Blue for resolution. If this occurs clockwise (Rx) the resolution is slow and if counter clockwise (Direct) the resolution is faster.
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Unread 03-29-2013, 11:52 PM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

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Originally Posted by StillOne View Post
Indeed PTV, this is a lot of info. I decided to type it out for both our benefits since I have quite a number of these in my chart and so it would help me learn. I included more information than was necessary for additional insight as I will link this thread to those who may benefit from information on this structure.

If anyone is able to take it to the Mundane level, I think it would be you!



You are welcome. I think your main question relies on which direction it should be interpreted in. So it seems, IMO, the point of contact of the Red and Blue aspects to be the start (crisis), and then the Green Qcx for contemplation and finally the Blue for resolution. If this occurs clockwise (Rx) the resolution is slow and if counter clockwise (Direct) the resolution is faster.
Well, the Sabians infer that one must follow the clockwise direction for a spiritually oriented process...or solution... one could be tempted then, to proceed otherwise.

p.s. Thanks for the compliment!
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Unread 03-30-2013, 12:10 AM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

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Well, the Sabians infer that one must follow the clockwise direction for a spiritually oriented process...or solution... one could be tempted then, to proceed otherwise.

p.s. Thanks for the compliment!
Yes, I've read your posts that mention that particular point and I thank you for posting that information as it has helped me in interpreting the Sabians in my chart beginning from Virgo.

I think what the Hubers are saying is that in this particular triangular form, the flow follows Red-Green-Blue because it's easier for Red and Green to associate versus Red and Blue. That's why the "crisis" happens at the meeting point of Red and Blue and thus the energy flows away from this point to the "thinking step" of Green. A solution happens here as we move to the Blue aspect.
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Unread 03-30-2013, 01:18 AM
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Re: An unusual "Trine Matrix" needing understanding.

It pleases me greatly that you find the Sabians of value.
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