Is Pluto misunderstood?

Lykanized

Well-known member
I've seen the worst of Pluto/Scorp too so I know there's nothing glamorous there
 

BaoSanniang

Well-known member
It's very disturbing to me that people say those things to others and particularly that a parent would say those things to their child. If that's "Plutonic" I'm certainly not. It's clearly an attempt to be as cruel as possible in a moment of anger. Have you always known that was abusive and abnormal?

You may be right about the Pluto influence bringing that on, although I'd probably look at the condition of other planets first: Mars, Mercury, Moon. The person I know who most closely fits what you describe is a Gemini. Unfortunately, I don't know her birth details to know more about her chart. I do know that a bitter Gemini can be a very barb-tongued person. I suppose a bitter Aquarius can too.

No. In my early years I was conditioned into believing it was normal, it wasn't until a very close and dear friend and older mentor of mine started helping me see the dysfunctional patterns.

Also, through my own research, I found that my mom and the relatives on her side had been / have been using some very typical emotionally abusive and manipulative tactics.



I'll give you a list of all of my mom's aspects involving her personal planets and the Ascendant. I've made another thread specifically about her but here I'll post them again:

Sun Conjunct Venus (in Aquarius)
Sun Sextile Mars
Sun Sq. Jupiter (I have the opposition that's between Cancer and Capricorn)
Sun Sq. Saturn (hers is a significantly tighter square than mine)
Sun Trine Uranus
Sun Sextile Neptune
Sun Trine Pluto

Moon Sextile Uranus

Mercury Sq. Uranus


Venus Sextile Mars
Venus Sq. Jupiter
Venus Sq. Saturn
Venus Trine Uranus
Venus Sextile Neptune
Venus Trine Pluto


Mars Sextile Neptune
Mars Opposition Pluto


Saturn Trine Ascendant


Neptune Square Ascendant


Chiron in Aries in 8th house, loosely conjunct Mars in late Pisces and opposite Pluto in late degree Virgo.


C's Chart.png

Sun in Aquarius in VI
Moon in Leo in XII
Mercury in Capricorn in V
Venus in Aquarius in VI
Mars in Pisces in VIII
Jupiter in Scorpio in III
Saturn in Taurus in IX
Uranus in Libra in II
Neptune in Sagittarius in IV (could Neptune in IV represent deceit within the household?)
Pluto in Virgo in II
 
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Gemini888

Well-known member
It's very disturbing to me that people say those things to others and particularly that a parent would say those things to their child. If that's "Plutonic" I'm certainly not. It's clearly an attempt to be as cruel as possible in a moment of anger. Have you always known that was abusive and abnormal?

You may be right about the Pluto influence bringing that on, although I'd probably look at the condition of other planets first: Mars, Mercury, Moon. The person I know who most closely fits what you describe is a Gemini. Unfortunately, I don't know her birth details to know more about her chart. I do know that a bitter Gemini can be a very barb-tongued person. I suppose a bitter Aquarius can too.
I respect all signs. But from my experience with Aqua people I've met two types: one has a big heart and is truly a great friend to be around, and the other think they are some kind of God with the right to tell people what to do. The latter type blows my mind especially when they have no placement/aspect that indicates close-mindedness and gigatic ego. So my theory here is that Aqua is the opposite sign of Leo, so they also carry a certain amount of pride with them. The pride is just less apparent. Leo's pride is about being the shiniest star in the group, and Aqua's pride is about being the most unique star of the group. So there's a chance that an unevolved Aqua is so proud of being different and innovative that they end up giving themselves the right to treat people poorly.


Those with strong Aqua influence, I don't mean to put you down. It's just an observation.
 

BaoSanniang

Well-known member
I respect all signs. But from my experience with Aqua people I've met two types: one has a big heart and is truly a great friend to be around, and the other think they are some kind of God with the right to tell people what to do. The latter type blows my mind especially when they have no placement/aspect that indicates close-mindedness and gigatic ego. So my theory here is that Aqua is the opposite sign of Leo, so they also carry a certain amount of pride with them. The pride is just less apparent. Leo's pride is about being the shiniest star in the group, and Aqua's pride is about being the most unique star of the group. So there's a chance that an unevolved Aqua is so proud of being different and innovative that they end up giving themselves the right to treat people poorly.


Those with strong Aqua influence, I don't mean to put you down. It's just an observation.


In response to what you've posted in the thread I made specifically about my mom, if we consider minor aspects then my Sun at 11.45 degrees Cancer is quincunx my Moon at 13.55 degrees Aquarius. Apart from that, however, I do not have Uranus contacts with any of my personal planets and I don't have Neptune or Pluto being involved with any of my personal planets.

My four dominant planets are: 1. Venus 2. Jupiter 3. Moon 4. Saturn according to Pullen. Pluto is actually #12. For some reason Uranus is #5 and I think it's just because I have an Aquarius moon, but I'm not very flexible when it comes to continuous change and I can be a bit weird to some people but I'm nothing close to being eccentric.

I'll upload the synastry chart between me and my mom when it's done but I'm about to go outside soon so probably later.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
Actually, everyone goes through that process of having subconscious blockages brought to light. Going through a process of digging through our darkness because what's there has power over us as long as we don't face it and own our darkness. That's just the trial of life. Pluto symbolizes that process, but we all have Pluto's presence in us somehow

Before I knew a thing about astrology, I was very passionate about transformation myself, facing my darkness, my truths hidden in my consciousness, learning from it so as to reclaim my power. I was also very much aligned with the 'Phoenix rising from the ashes' motif. I was very heavily involved with Plutonian themes like destruction, death, going as deep as possible, to the core, the raw core no matter how much it hurt, pain, my shadow. And I've always been very obsessive as well, especially with these concepts

But I also had Plutonian issues of control and projecting my feelings of powerlessness onto others

In all honesty, I'm very Plutonian energetically, yet I'm not sure I'd be considered Plutonian astrologically. So I do think we all are meant to go through this process. That's what growth is all about, we're not meant for stagnation. We're all meant to dig through the meat, the rotting flesh of us and bring it back to life. We're all meant to experience many little deaths and destructions so as to recreate ourselves

I do believe that's what Pluto's about. That's why people who don't do the work are likely to project their feelings of powerlessness out into the world

Before I knew anything about astrology or Pluto, I was very very passionate and aligned with Plutonian energy. But I still don't know if my chart would reflect that Plutonianism. So I'm definitely convinced we're all meant to go through that process

People have even thought I must be a Scorpio rising before. And I've been noted as having Plutonian energy, but I'm not sure if people would actually consider me Plutonian looking at my chart

So I wonder why I'd be so heavily Plutonian if it's not reflected in my tropical chart nor my sidereal chart. Actually, in sidereal, I'm a Scorpio NN, but I still don't think that accounts for how heavily Plutonian I am energetically. It just raises many questions and I truly do believe we're meant to all go through this process of delving into the deepest aspects ourselves, destroying what isn't ours and isn't real and carrying with us what is real, finding our power in the destruction, our light in the darkness

I think this is an important discussion... Perhaps we're all meant to explore the themes of every planet regardless of their presence in our charts. And Pluto is such a vital, very very human planet symbolically


This discussion is getting meaty and real, I love it :devil:
I truly believe we must all go through


I agree, thats true. Altho some go through this process more than other.
Maybe you have many squares? Or planets in 8th? Or late degree Libra or early Sag? I wouldn't say Scorpio is the ONLY energy that does that for sure, I believe all signs have that potential however Scorpio is the only one that can dig real deep. Painfully deep.
 

Witchyone

Well-known member
No. In my early years I was conditioned into believing it was normal, it wasn't until a very close and dear friend and older mentor of mine started helping me see the dysfunctional patterns.

Also, through my own research, I found that my mom and the relatives on her side had been / have been using some very typical emotionally abusive and manipulative tactics.



I'll give you a list of all of my mom's aspects involving her personal planets and the Ascendant. I've made another thread specifically about her but here I'll post them again:

Sun Conjunct Venus (in Aquarius)
Sun Sextile Mars
Sun Sq. Jupiter (I have the opposition that's between Cancer and Capricorn)
Sun Sq. Saturn (hers is a significantly tighter square than mine)
Sun Trine Uranus
Sun Sextile Neptune
Sun Trine Pluto

Moon Sextile Uranus

Mercury Sq. Uranus


Venus Sextile Mars
Venus Sq. Jupiter
Venus Sq. Saturn
Venus Trine Uranus
Venus Sextile Neptune
Venus Trine Pluto


Mars Sextile Neptune
Mars Opposition Pluto


Saturn Trine Ascendant


Neptune Square Ascendant


Chiron in Aries in 8th house, loosely conjunct Mars in late Pisces and opposite Pluto in late degree Virgo.


View attachment 79632

Sun in Aquarius in VI
Moon in Leo in XII
Mercury in Capricorn in V
Venus in Aquarius in VI
Mars in Pisces in VIII
Jupiter in Scorpio in III
Saturn in Taurus in IX
Uranus in Libra in II
Neptune in Sagittarius in IV (could Neptune in IV represent deceit within the household?)
Pluto in Virgo in II

I've known quite a few people who were verbally abused as children, and most of them thought it was normal too. That's part of what is so damaging about it. It doesn't just hurt your sense of self; it warps your reality. No parent is perfect, and most parents lose their temper and say something harsh once in a while, but I can assure you that healthy parents don't say those things you listed. There's a chance this didn't start recently and that your family has been passing these behaviors down for many generations.

If you're confident about her birth time, I think the Leo moon in the 12th is interesting. That moon doesn't like to hide, but it's in the house of hidden things. I also think blacklioness is right about her Venus.
 

Witchyone

Well-known member
I've seen the worst of Pluto/Scorp too so I know there's nothing glamorous there

The people I can think of who had the most abusive and difficult childhoods are both double Scorpios. They have both done abusive things to others, particularly the man, but dressing people down verbally wasn't the way either of them did it. It was much more subtle. They both were also aware and trying really hard not to pass on their issues. I haven't paid that much attention to how Pluto plays out in people's charts who aren't Scorpios.
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
I agree, thats true. Altho some go through this process more than other.
Maybe you have many squares? Or planets in 8th? Or late degree Libra or early Sag? I wouldn't say Scorpio is the ONLY energy that does that for sure, I believe all signs have that potential however Scorpio is the only one that can dig real deep. Painfully deep.

I don't think so. There's me, I'll go painfully deep. Then I've also met some very superficial Scorpionics who are afraid of any level of depth
Scorpio doesn't equal depth and isn't the only sign that provides it or depth to that journey

Scorpio the only sign that can dig painfully deep? Nah. That's in an individual. And like I said, everyone eventually has to
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
The people I can think of who had the most abusive and difficult childhoods are both double Scorpios. They have both done abusive things to others, particularly the man, but dressing people down verbally wasn't the way either of them did it. It was much more subtle. They both were also aware and trying really hard not to pass on their issues. I haven't paid that much attention to how Pluto plays out in people's charts who aren't Scorpios.
There was and is no subtlety to the ones I've met who are abusive. The only subtlety is in trying to hide it when they get out of their moments, but the moments themselves are anything but subtle. One tried to play mind games to where he had this affected good guy but out would come the demon slowly but surely. He was a straight up psychopath amd seemed like he was trying to set up a crime scene and frame me oddly enough. But in a family of Scorpionic people(he wasn't family), none are even close to that. I actually think Scorpios have big hearts. The abusive one in my family is just controlling with anger issues and demands respect he hasn't earned. He will however terrorize people then come back as if it never happened
 

Witchyone

Well-known member
There was and is no subtlety to the ones I've met who are abusive. The only subtlety is in trying to hide it when they get out of their moments, but the moments themselves are anything but subtle. One tried to play mind games to where he had this affected good guy but out would come the demon slowly but surely. He was a straight up psychopath amd seemed like he was trying to set up a crime scene and frame me oddly enough. But in a family of Scorpionic people(he wasn't family), none are even close to that. I actually think Scorpios have big hearts. The abusive one in my family is just controlling with anger issues and demands respect he hasn't earned. He will however terrorize people then come back as if it never happened

You know, I was thinking after I walked away from the thread that the two people I was thinking of never had the opportunity or a reason to try to control me with verbal abuse. We weren't quite that close. And I know of some other stuff that sort of negates what I wrote.
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
Oh no, not everyone has to. Some people run from deep diving their entire life.
I suppose so. I should say everyone eventually has to or they're gonna be excruciatingly unhappy
The only person I know who's gone decades without doing it is actually a Scorpio tho


Oddly it was also a Scorpio/Plutonian who chastised me for 'going too deep'
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I suppose so. I should say everyone eventually has to or they're gonna be excruciatingly unhappy
The only person I know who's gone decades without doing it is actually a Scorpio tho

Oddly it was also a Scorpio/Plutonian who chastised me for 'going too deep'

You know about the "hades moon" phenomenon coined by Judy Hall? I have a "hades moon" family with those energies heavily represented who seem to run as fast as they can from any delving beyond the surface of things. And all of them are extremely unhealthy. I've mentioned before that I was in a household with 6 Scorpio Moon at one point, and anybody who drew close also had the of Scorpio heavily represented. Someone outside of the astrological pattern once paid a visit to the house. She described that there was a barrenness and a sink hole feeling that she felt being there - "nothing can grow here".

It might not be such a surprise that the same energetic pattern that calls for going deep is also present in those who engage the opposite stance as if their lives depended on it.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Pluto is the planet of the taboo: shock value, darkness, controversy, sensitivity and evokes/provokes strong emotional responses. Not only it has to do with death and dying, the "heart" shaped topographic plain on the planet surface: it sure has a lot to do with romance, intimacy and sexuality. Pluto is the ruler of Scorpio which the sign is about hot tense love between two persons.

Pluto gives us the term "Plutarch" as in business corporations or moneyed elites, political parliaments or assemblies, religious clergy or church councils, and societal hierarchy or divides (the USA's difficult issues of racism or ethnic conflict, patriarchy and heteronormativity, political partisan tension, and socioeconomic classes).

I have a sun and moon in 8th (Aquarius) in the Plutonian or Scorpion house, Pluto is about an openness and worldliness of subjective science, historic theory and interest in the paranormal. In my own natal chart, my ruler planet Uranus in Scorpio (the generation born 1974-81) squares my natal sun and moon. It's gonna get interesting when you configure my ruling Aquarian planet in Scorpio.

And Pluto placements in certain signs in world history coincides with growing interest, fascination and studies of astrology; some people find that a forbidden topic due to their own personal opinions or religious beliefs in regards to the use of tracking planetary orbits, placements and transits to affect individual and society's lives on earth.
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
You know about the "hades moon" phenomenon coined by Judy Hall? I have a "hades moon" family with those energies heavily represented who seem to run as fast as they can from any delving beyond the surface of things. And all of them are extremely unhealthy. I've mentioned before that I was in a household with 6 Scorpio Moon at one point, and anybody who drew close also had the of Scorpio heavily represented. Someone outside of the astrological pattern once paid a visit to the house. She described that there was a barrenness and a sink hole feeling that she felt being there - "nothing can grow here".

It might not be such a surprise that the same energetic pattern that calls for going deep is also present in those who engage the opposite stance as if their lives depended on it.
I agree, I think I mentioned something along those lines in my massive rambling. If Pluto is about transformation, it's also about what holds us back from transformation. I believe it's possible transformation may have to do with that vulnerability and surrender, neither of which are easy for anyone. I think that's why Pluto deals so heavily with power and control. Transformation would be the highest level of Plutonic power, or rather, the state of vulnerability that allows transformation. But by no means would it be easy to achieve


I always see forces as connecting to their opposing forces, but I know I've said that a lot already. All that glitzy and glamory Pluto chic may seem sexy, but it's a point of growth. I think it's very easy for Pluto to undo its own self and to even devolve rather than transform. All defenses are up then, and everyone and everything may be perceived as a threat. No room for growth there
 

BaoSanniang

Well-known member
I've known quite a few people who were verbally abused as children, and most of them thought it was normal too. That's part of what is so damaging about it. It doesn't just hurt your sense of self; it warps your reality. No parent is perfect, and most parents lose their temper and say something harsh once in a while, but I can assure you that healthy parents don't say those things you listed. There's a chance this didn't start recently and that your family has been passing these behaviors down for many generations.

If you're confident about her birth time, I think the Leo moon in the 12th is interesting. That moon doesn't like to hide, but it's in the house of hidden things. I also think blacklioness is right about her Venus.

I don't know when these patterns began, but what I can say is the relationship between my mom, my uncle (her younger brother), and their mom is a very difficult and tense relationship where...... each of them is playing their own game. It's no secret my mom and my uncle don't get along and it's mostly over money / inheritance issues from what I know but there could be many other issues I'm not aware of. The relationship between that old woman and her two children is devoid of any real or natural love and warmth, it's basically endless superficial pleasing and appeasing and power struggles with open conflict once in a while, but from what I can see there will be more open conflict in the future as their mom gets older. I am hesitant to call her a grandmother because the way she's treated me and the horrible human being she is means that she doesn't deserve the title.

You know there's something inherently wrong with them when just everyone on the maternal side of my family has been divorced at least once. There are so many secrets, so much ******** that goes on behind covers but to the outside world they try to act like they're angels, I mean sometimes you do get glimpses of just how awful they are but usually you don't see it until you've spent enough time around them.

I mean my mom's side of the family is one big wreck that doesn't deserve to be called a family, it's too dark and complex and dysfunctional and I've yet to uncover many of its secrets, and the older I get the more I've gotten to a point where I believe perhaps it's for me to not know certain things. Either way it doesn't affect me or influence who I am, because I am nothing like them.

I don't know about my mom's upbringing, to be honest, but I can very reasonably assume that she was exposed to much of what has been done to me, in some ways probably worse because I believe she was possibly taught to be cruel, scheming, and ruthless in a much more harsh and direct manner.

As @BlackLioness87 puts it, they demonstrate many Plutonian traits at the lowest octave, and their lives and the situations they either get themselves into, or they happen to come across usually have very Plutonian themes. It's all about power, lies, manipulation, sometimes even their very lives have been at stake. All in all it's a world I cannot understand nor do I want to understand it, but what little of their world I've been exposed to, the parts that that they've carried with them in their psyches, have hurt me deeply and profoundly.

I'm more sensitive than usual to dysfunctional dynamics in families and in relationships, sometimes I can imagine things to be more negative than they actually are because I can pick up what I see is the slightest hint. In the past, and even now, sometimes I find myself asking other people how they get along with their families, and how their parents and family members get along with each other because perhaps deep down I am searching for a sense of normality.

You can imagine how difficult it is for a Cancer sun individual to have gone through **** like this. I mean it's not easy for anyone, but for a sensitive sign like Cancer at times I really felt like it was the end of the world.

I actually thank the fact I was born with an Aquarius moon rather than a more mushy and sensitive moon sign, say if I had a Pisces, Cancer, or Taurus moon I might not be able to cope as well.

I cannot see why my mom would have her Leo moon in 1H. If she had her Leo moon in the 1H she'd be much more aware of the traits of her Leo moon and other people would basically see the expression of her Leo moon on her face, but that's not the case. I feel that her Leo moon is concealed quite well because to people who don't know her well she comes off as quite charming and easygoing due to her Sun-Venus conjunction in Aquarius. I also don't see her moon being in House XI, she's more hidden and complex than that.

I also find her Venus interesting because it's square both Jupiter and Saturn, and from what I've seen regarding the men in her life she likes to be treated like a princess and indulged upon, she likes romance and when men give her gifts. She's even attracted a few men after her money and some of them were a bit odd, to say the least. However, due to her Venus Sq. Saturn deep down she always seems to have this fear of falling in love and really giving herself to anyone. Then her Venus forms aspects with Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto, further complicating her womanhood and relationships. Again, much of it I don't even know because she's never told me nor do I think she wants to tell me.
 
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Witchyone

Well-known member
I don't know when these patterns began, but what I can say is the relationship between my mom, my uncle (her younger brother), and their mom is a very difficult and tense relationship where...... each of them is playing their own game. It's no secret my mom and my uncle don't get along and it's mostly over money / inheritance issues from what I know but there could be many other issues I'm not aware of. The relationship between that old woman and her two children is devoid of any real or natural love and warmth, it's basically endless superficial pleasing and appeasing and power struggles with open conflict once in a while, but from what I can see there will be more open conflict in the future as their mom gets older. I am hesitant to call her a grandmother because the way she's treated me and the horrible human being she is means that she doesn't deserve the title.

You know there's something inherently wrong with them when just everyone on the maternal side of my family has been divorced at least once. There are so many secrets, so much ******** that goes on behind covers but to the outside world they try to act like they're angels, I mean sometimes you do get glimpses of just how awful they are but usually you don't see it until you've spent enough time around them.

I mean my mom's side of the family is one big wreck that doesn't deserve to be called a family, it's too dark and complex and dysfunctional and I've yet to uncover many of its secrets, and the older I get the more I've gotten to a point where I believe perhaps it's for me to not know certain things. Either way it doesn't affect me or influence who I am, because I am nothing like them.

I don't know about my mom's upbringing, to be honest, but I can very reasonably assume that she was exposed to much of what has been done to me, in some ways probably worse because I believe she was possibly taught to be cruel, scheming, and ruthless in a much more harsh and direct manner.

As @BlackLioness87 puts it, they demonstrate many Plutonian traits at the lowest octave, and their lives and the situations they either get themselves into, or they happen to come across usually have very Plutonian themes. It's all about power, lies, manipulation, sometimes even their very lives have been at stake. All in all it's a world I cannot understand nor do I want to understand it, but what little of their world I've been exposed to, the parts that that they've carried with them in their psyches, have hurt me deeply and profoundly.

I'm more sensitive than usual to dysfunctional dynamics in families and in relationships, sometimes I can imagine things to be more negative than they actually are because I can pick up what I see is the slightest hint. In the past, and even now, sometimes I find myself asking other people how they get along with their families, and how their parents and family members get along with each other because perhaps deep down I am searching for a sense of normality.

You can imagine how difficult it is for a Cancer sun individual to have gone through **** like this. I mean it's not easy for anyone, but for a sensitive sign like Cancer at times I really felt like it was the end of the world.

I actually thank the fact I was born with an Aquarius moon rather than a more mushy and sensitive moon sign, say if I had a Pisces, Cancer, or Taurus moon I might not be able to cope as well.

I cannot see why my mom would have her Leo moon in 1H. If she had her Leo moon in the 1H she'd be much more aware of the traits of her Leo moon and other people would basically see the expression of her Leo moon on her face, but that's not the case. I feel that her Leo moon is concealed quite well because to people who don't know her well she comes off as quite charming and easygoing due to her Sun-Venus conjunction in Aquarius. I also don't see her moon being in House XI, she's more hidden and complex than that.

I also find her Venus interesting because it's square both Jupiter and Saturn, and from what I've seen regarding the men in her life she likes to be treated like a princess and indulged upon, she likes romance and when men give her gifts. She's even attracted a few men after her money and some of them were a bit odd, to say the least. However, due to her Venus Sq. Saturn deep down she always seems to have this fear of falling in love and really giving herself to anyone. Then her Venus forms aspects with Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto, further complicating her womanhood and relationships. Again, much of it I don't even know because she's never told me nor do I think she wants to tell me.

You know, most abusive people _do_ love; it's just a twisted kind of love that often hurts the very people they want to care for. Keeping you in the dark about some of the things in your family's past might be a tool your mom uses to control you, but it might be her way of protecting you or herself. It might be both. I would expect having a 12th house moon would make it difficult to outwardly share her inner feelings, if she's even able to access them. She might have closed herself off from all that years ago.
 

BaoSanniang

Well-known member
Farewell, Flower from Hades. For you were given such a great power that you could not control, nor did you choose to leave the dark and step into the light. The anguish, pain, and destruction you've brought to me and my loved ones, we did not deserve. Maybe the world above was never meant for someone as deep, as piercing, as sophisticated as you. Now, you shall return to the world where you belong, may flames engulf you and may your ashes be blown away by the wind, and with them, all of the tormenting memories of those you've hurt and wronged, for it is because of you that they've been forced to seek the path of growth and rebirth, to bathe in healing waters. Now, it's time to turn the page and begin a new chapter. May the beast, the charlatan in you be chained to the deepest pit in hell for all eternity, never to see another sunrise on this merely mortal earth, because the marriage of my light with your darkness will only continue hurt us both. This is my eulogy to the bond we've shared, and it's too late to turn back. Begone, you witch! If you love me, if there is any love left in you, you will leave! I wish your soul a safe journey back.
 
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BlackLioness87

Well-known member
Farewell, Flower from Hades. For you were given such a great power that you could not control, nor did you choose to leave the dark and step into the light. The anguish, pain, and destruction you've brought to me and my loved ones, we did not deserve. Maybe the world above was never meant for someone as deep, as piercing, as sophisticated as you. Now, you shall return to the world where you belong, may flames engulf you and may your ashes be blown away by the wind, and with them, all of the tormenting memories of those you've hurt and wronged, for it is because of you that they've been forced to seek the path of growth and rebirth, to bathe in healing waters. Now, it's time to turn the page and begin a new chapter. May the beast, the charlatan in you be chained to the deepest pit in hell for all eternity, never to see another sunrise on this merely mortal earth, because the marriage of my light with your darkness will only continue hurt us both. This is my eulogy to the bond we've shared, and it's too late to turn back. Begone, you witch! If you love me, if there is any love left in you, you will leave! I wish your soul a safe journey back.
Don't feel sorry Andrew, if you feel it's time to move on, do it and don't feel anger, pain or remorse. :( My "Hades Moon" mother is not as "wicked" as your mother but I cut ties with her from time to time. Her Gemini Venus squares my NN in Aries and her Pluto quincunxes my NN :sideways:.

Some mother-child relationships are very karmic in the sense that one of them has to give an extremely important lesson to the other. Well, actually it seems that in most of the cases both people have something important to learn from each other. In our cases, our mothers need to be aware of how hurtful they are to us, to themselves and to others they don't care about.

Our "plutonic" mothers were abused or witnessed abuse, but they decided to build a false self to hide their anger and pain, instead of accepting their wounding and evolving beyond them (My double Leo mother has her Sun in 12H, and she has some repressed childhood memories). Anyways, they can't hide their true selves/feelings from close people. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), you are aware or conscious enough to notice your mother's attitude and views are toxic and unhealthy and you have the courage to complain and tell her which are her flaws, you are also bold enough to escape from her influence.

I think we are fortunate, because the ones who submit to this unevolved "Plutonian" people are the ones who will suffer the most in the long run. We, the ones who don't submit are sometimes heavily psychologically or physically beaten (we are the scapegoats), but in the end we learn to detach ourselves from the pain. If one chose such a "complicated" experience, could be in order to learn to be strong, assertive and resilient (the final goal); if you have a sensitive nature you need those traits to face the grim reality, sometimes I believe there's a really hard event awaiting for me in the near future and I'm enough prepared to endure it without losing my mind (Thanks to mom's boot camp)... well, I'm simply speculating.

If you don't learn to detach from anger you'll become a predator, if you don't detach from pain there's the chance to become a victim of another "egotistical" person (you may also engage dangerous activities to evade reality). If you're detached you have more chances to quit from a toxic relationship and heal very quickly; [most of the time] you won't damage your body and mind with self destructive behavior. In my case I have Pluto square sun and Venus and I attract many "troubled" people (my parents, my former parents in law and the father of my children have Mars-Pluto conjunction or hard aspects). I don't know when it will stop (I also attract a few people with afflicted Moons), but I believe my narcissistic, oppressive and demanding mother along with the other people with Pluto-Mars hard aspects have gave me very valuable training. Now I believe I can overcome any difficulty that comes along my path.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Don't feel sorry Andrew, if you feel it's time to move on, do it and don't feel anger, pain or remorse. :( My "Hades Moon" mother is not as "wicked" as your mother but I cut ties with her from time to time. Her Gemini Venus squares my NN in Aries and her Pluto quincunxes my NN :sideways:.

Some mother-child relationships are very karmic in the sense that one of them has to give an extremely important lesson to the other. Well, actually it seems that in most of the cases both people have something important to learn from each other. In our cases, our mothers need to be aware of how hurtful they are to us, to themselves and to others they don't care about.

Our "plutonic" mothers were abused or witnessed abuse, but they decided to build a false self to hide their anger and pain, instead of accepting their wounding and evolving beyond them (My double Leo mother has her Sun in 12H, and she has some repressed childhood memories). Anyways, they can't hide their true selves/feelings from close people. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), you are aware or conscious enough to notice your mother's attitude and views are toxic and unhealthy and you have the courage to complain and tell her which are her flaws, you are also bold enough to escape from her influence.

I think we are fortunate, because the ones who submit to this unevolved "Plutonian" people are the ones who will suffer the most in the long run. We, the ones who don't submit are sometimes heavily psychologically or physically beaten (we are the scapegoats), but in the end we learn to detach ourselves from the pain. If one chose such a "complicated" experience, could be in order to learn to be strong, assertive and resilient (the final goal); if you have a sensitive nature you need those traits to face the grim reality, sometimes I believe there's a really hard event awaiting for me in the near future and I'm enough prepared to endure it without losing my mind (Thanks to mom's boot camp)... well, I'm simply speculating.

If you don't learn to detach from anger you'll become a predator, if you don't detach from pain there's the chance to become a victim of another "egotistical" person (you may also engage dangerous activities to evade reality). If you're detached you have more chances to quit from a toxic relationship and heal very quickly; [most of the time] you won't damage your body and mind with self destructive behavior. In my case I have Pluto square sun and Venus and I attract many "troubled" people (my parents, my former parents in law and the father of my children have Mars-Pluto conjunction or hard aspects). I don't know when it will stop (I also attract a few people with afflicted Moons), but I believe my narcissistic, oppressive and demanding mother along with the other people with Pluto-Mars hard aspects have gave me very valuable training. Now I believe I can overcome any difficulty that comes along my path.


Conque muy confianzuda, he?
 
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