The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

miquar · Jan 30, 2012

Hi Frisiangal. I just wanted to say for beginners that while Uranus may reflect the archetypal structures that underpin the manifest universe, it does not have anything to do with natural rhythms in the sense of birth and death, or Spring Summer Autumn Winter, etc. Just wanted to clarify that for anyone who is just learning about Uranus. I know you're probably well aware of it yourself.

Interesting way of seeing the planets, I thought.

miquar · Jan 30, 2012

Hi Waybread. Great detective work. That phrase 'I can see why Aquarius Leo might have seemed like hot stuff to astrologers in the early-mid 20th century' got me thinking. I wondered if there were significant of cycles of pairs of transiting planets starting (conjunctions) and culminating (oppositions) along the 27 degree Leo Aquarius axis. Its not a scientific analysis by any means, but here's what I saw on the graphic ephemeris:

All of the following pairs of planets either conjuncted or opposed one another within one degree of 27 Leo/Aquarius during the year(s) stated, except where I state that the aspect took place further from the axis. Some involve multiple hits on the degree due to retrogradation. I just used Jupiter outwards, and the (True) Nodes.

1905 Nodes Saturn
1919 Saturn Uranus
1927 Jupiter Neptune
42/43 Nodes Chiron 2 degrees away
55/56 Jupiter Pluto
1960 Chiron and Uranus were both stationary at the same time at 26 and 27 degrees
1961 Nodes Uranus
1962 Jupiter Uranus
1979 Jupiter Nodes

Didn't go any further. I don't know what the statistical probabilities are of this happening, but I suspect that there are very few points (if any) in the Zodiac that can boast so many oppositions and conjunctions of these planets during that time.

Just thought I'd throw it in for food for thought...

sandstone · Jan 30, 2012

waybread,

the "close enough to count" may not have been applicable according to carter... once you open up the orb to a degree or 2 on either side of the 27 leo/aqu one will essentially have 6 degrees out of the 360, which seems like a small enough fraction, until you factor in a minimum of 7 planets (traditional or 10 modern) and 2 angles, which technically give at least 18 (or 24) points, since we are looking at an opposition, as opposed to only one point... if you include the outers, or chiron and etc, the points just add up to a bunch of mushy data as i see it.. this is one reason i am reluctant to use data like this to make connections with degrees of the tropic zodiac... one has to ask does 27 relate to 26.01 to 26.59, or does it relate to 27.00 to 27.59? folks looking at this data in a serious manner need to take this into consideration as well, else it remains mushy info as i see it..

so many interesting conclusions could be made just looking at the ebertin families data which is rated A, or AA by rodden as well..

miquar - that is an interesting consideration as well... what happens when the info is collected on astrologers from a different century for example? to me there are built in weaknesses to research if a number of considerations are not taken into account.. this would be another one of them.. we need carter to explain how he came up with the idea, but he isn't around to tell us.. one makes the assumption it is based off the collected charts he made over the course of his life, but that might be wrong...

waybread · Jan 30, 2012

Good points, sandstone! Once we open up a delineation too much, it just starts to occupy too much real estate around the horoscope. On the other hand, possibly less than 2 degrees on either side of 27 degreeswould be valid if it came up a lot; but then you would also have to test non-astrologers to see whether astrologers have this type of placement at a level significantly higher than the general population.

Haave you ever heard of the "astrologer's degree"? I forget if it is 14 or 11 degrees Virgo.

Interesting, miquar!

sandstone · Jan 30, 2012

it is 11 virgo and it is more of the same... now we have 4 x (11virgo/pisces or just virgo?), instead of 2 if you think 27 leo/aq is an astrologers degree.. i just think the idea of latching onto a degree point to define an activity or occupation is very tenuous at best!

tsmall · Jan 30, 2012

Well, I just finished reading Joseph Crane's A Pratical Guide to Traditional Astrology, and he said Valens said that Mercury square Mars makes for wizards and astrologers...

sandstone · Jan 30, 2012

re mars/mercury squares..

ceo carter, reinhold ebertin, deborah houlding, robert hand and william lilly don't qualify and those were only the first ones i looked at!

valens doesn't even qualify, lol....

neither does crane...

i should try to find an astrologer who has this... give me a second..

john addey has it by sign, but not by degree...

after looking at another 10 or so charts, t patrick davis has it - 11 aq to 19 taurus...

i think this signature is not all that encouraging in my quick study on it..

tsmall · Jan 30, 2012

Just reporting it as I reads it, lol. I know nuthin' about nuthin'....

sandstone · Jan 30, 2012

it is good tsmall! i am just knocking it down too... nothin' personal, lol... i just find this kind of stuff on the silly side, but what do i know either?

it really goes back to what has to happen for proper research to take place in astrology to knock down a number of theories which might have a basis in truth to them, but when more closely examined, don't necessarily hold up?

for me it goes back to astrology as art more then science... david cochrane the head of cosmic patterns and kepler astro software seems to think we are just at the beginning of research into all of these different theories astrologers have on a number of ideas and i like to think he is right..

dr. farr · Jan 30, 2012

I go along with an orb of 1 degree on either side of a special point (including a midpoint); using Pauline dodekatemorion (or even simple dodekatemorion, ie the 12th harmonic) of ascendants and certain natal planets, to see what degree area (3 degree arc) they hit, can sometimes be enlightening in finding "hidden" potentialities/indications in a chart.
(Greenbaum, in the translation and publication of Paulus Alexandrianus work around 2001, had expected that experimentation with the Pauline dodekatemorion-among those interested in Hellenistic astrology-would likely become extensive; however we find that very little has been done with this among the neo-Hellenists over the past 11 years-I wonder why?)

sandstone · Jan 31, 2012

hi dr farr,

thanks for your posts here and the comment you made the other night on cyril fagan on the hellenistic thread... i ordered the book your refer to a few weeks ago, so will be getting it in the mail soon hopefully.. i am really interested in it as a few people have spoken highly of it including yourself.. for those reading my comments the title and author are
late classical astrology translated by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum

from what i have heard the pauline dodekatemorion that dr farr mentions is the equivalent of a 13th harmonic chart... harmonic charts are something i am very fascinated by, but there is very little literature on them... david hamblin and john addey have made a focus on harmonics and i know that david cochrane has as well, but only the first 2 astro authors have books out on harmonics.. fascinating stuff..

in a harmonic chart i would give a wider orb that 1 or 2 degrees which is what i think the pauline dodekatemorion is - 13th harmonic.. but i have yet to read this book, and have only looked at 13th harmonic charts with very little understanding other then from what i have read..

greybeard · Jan 31, 2012

The first thing is to examine the WHOLE CHART. One degree does not an astrologer make. How about the Eighth and Twelfth Houses? And there are many different "kinds" of astrologers. Some are oriented toward prediction of mundane events, some toward metaphysical thought, others toward building a reputable bank account. Some are traditional, others avant-garde. We have the natal astrologer, the electional specialist, the political thinker, the economist.... So just what is an an astrologer anyway?

Frisiangal · Jan 31, 2012

Waybread :Haave you ever heard of the "astrologer's degree"? I forget if it is 14 or 11 degrees Virgo

.

sandstone said:
it is 11 virgo

Click to expand...

and it is more of the same... now we have 4 x (11virgo/pisces or just virgo?), instead of 2 if you think 27 leo/aq is an astrologers degree.. i just think the idea of latching onto a degree point to define an activity or occupation is very tenuous at best!

Oh dear.

Does that mean I could be, would be, might be........ Am??????
Asc. is 10 :virgo:

44. All planets bar Jupiter and Neptune(rulers I.C and Desc.) aspect it.

In the late 80's, at med. astro. school, I was able finally to correct my birth time to 8 mins. earlier of a round hour time, using 'Ebertin's Anatomical Correspondences to Zodiacal Degrees', after discovering that a physical complaint coincided exactly with the 11th degree. I have Chiron and Black Moon Lilith partile Asc. in 12.
Natal Mars (rules gall) is on the midpoint of the Asc.-Chiron-BML square Uranus (ruler 6th house).
The corrected birth time has proven its accuracy before and since. :smile:

Miquar wrote:

Hi Frisiangal. I just wanted to say for beginners that while Uranus may reflect the archetypal structures that underpin the manifest universe, it does not have anything to do with natural rhythms in the sense of birth and death, or Spring Summer Autumn Winter, etc. Just wanted to clarify that for anyone who is just learning about Uranus. I know you're probably well aware of it yourself.

Interesting way of seeing the planets, I thought.

This was 'the understanding' through which I have always been taught ....an holistic methodology?
In explanation, I was attempting to offer the point that Uranus does not 'reflect the archetypal structures that underpin the manifest universe', which is surely Saturn orientated?
Perhaps we are thinking in different terms regarding what 'natural rhythms' imply.

The methodology comes from the medical astrology viewpoint, through which physical ailments are a consequence/result of stagnation (Saturn) and being unable to move forward(Uranus) from an old pattern(Moon and/or Saturn). This results in (internal) stress, eventual burn out and breakdown. The latter are (modern) astrologically regarded as negative qualities of Uranus.

If spirit-mind-body-soul are linked in unity then, to my way of thinking (rebellistic at its astrological best/worst....I question everything until proven :smile:

), the same astrological pattern is relevant in and to all forms that make up one's daily pattern through life.

But that's just me. :smile:

MaeMae · Jan 31, 2012

I've mulled-over this question.
I think one's interest in astrology is Uranian, if for no other reason than Uranus does not limit its knowledge to empirical evidence.
I think its application is Plutonian ~ a strong orientation to get to the meat of a person or matter. Going deep and unveiling truths.
I have always thought the two signs (Aquarius & Scorpio) are kindred in purpose - truthseekers with endless energy to get to the bottom of things. Probing questions. Instinctive understanding of "where to go with this..."

miquar · Jan 31, 2012

Frisiangal said:
.

Oh dear.
Does that mean I could be, would be, might be........ Am??????
Asc. is 1044. All planets bar Jupiter and Neptune(rulers I.C and Desc.) aspect it.

In the late 80's, at med. astro. school, I was able finally to correct my birth time to 8 mins. earlier of a round hour time, using 'Ebertin's Anatomical Correspondences to Zodiacal Degrees', after discovering that a physical complaint coincided exactly with the 11th degree. I have Chiron and Black Moon Lilith partile Asc. in 12.
Natal Mars (rules gall) is on the midpoint of the Asc.-Chiron-BML square Uranus (ruler 6th house).
The corrected birth time has proven its accuracy before and since.

Miquar wrote:

This was 'the understanding' through which I have always been taught ....an holistic methodology?
In explanation, I was attempting to offer the point that Uranus does not 'reflect the archetypal structures that underpin the manifest universe', which is surely Saturn orientated?
Perhaps we are thinking in different terms regarding what 'natural rhythms' imply.

The methodology comes from the medical astrology viewpoint, through which physical ailments are a consequence/result of stagnation (Saturn) and being unable to move forward(Uranus) from an old pattern(Moon and/or Saturn). This results in (internal) stress, eventual burn out and breakdown. The latter are (modern) astrologically regarded as negative qualities of Uranus.

If spirit-mind-body-soul are linked in unity then, to my way of thinking (rebellistic at its astrological best/worst....I question everything until proven), the same astrological pattern is relevant in and to all forms that make up one's daily pattern through life.

But that's just me.

I do think structures generally come under the rulership of Saturn, but the archetypal realm, as Uranus perceives it, is not structured in the same concrete way. My point was just that Uranus doesn't in my view have anything to do with natural rhythms in the sense that we normally understand the words - these are predominantly lunar. Uranus is far removed from the mortal life of the flesh.

Moira · Jan 31, 2012

miquar said:
I do think structures generally come under the rulership of Saturn, but the archetypal realm, as Uranus perceives it, is not structured in the same concrete way. My point was just that Uranus doesn't in my view have anything to do with natural rhythms in the sense that we normally understand the words - these are predominantly lunar. Uranus is far removed from the mortal life of the flesh.

Coincidentally, I just found Rudhyar's essay proposing Neptune as Astrology's ruler. Uranus is in the consciousness of distinctions, while Neptune is the consciousness of inclusion. Perhaps it requires talents of both in order to dissect a chart and keep up with continually new astrological theories (Uranus); then assimilate them into an understandable whole, which is continually open to new interpretation (Neptune).

http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astroarticles/doesuranusruleastrology.php

Pluto's hand in this carries a lot of weight concerning psychological and spiritual interests, which would contribute to one's purpose in using Astrology as an analytical process. But I see Pluto's rulership having more to do with the deeper/higher mystery of life, which actually is larger than the study of Astrology itself.

~ ~ ~

My first post in this forum finds some familiar and fair-minded thinkers here!

Moira

Michael R · Jan 31, 2012

With Uranus's recent ascent on to my Moon(DC) & squaring my natal Uranus on the MC and squaring My Sun on the IC that is the recent survivor of a Pluto conjunction,i would say my interest in Astrology/science exponentially increased as well as the tools & knowledge to accompany that.

I am in agreement with Moira as to the effects of PLUTO in it's wider comprehensive qualities.Not just due to the recent transits but because of it's natal placement in Leo 11th and subsequent aspects in the Natal chart to say nothing of the progressed placements of it in the 9th to Neptune in the 11th and assorted Asteroids joining the partee.My goals using astrology besides the obvious "Know thyself",are being clarified by the moment in it's uses & science.AS i read somewhere recently in my Uranian exploits;

'ASTROLOGY IS THE MOTHER OF ALL SCIENCE"

waybread · Jan 31, 2012

greybeard said:
The first thing is to examine the WHOLE CHART. One degree does not an astrologer make. How about the Eighth and Twelfth Houses? And there are many different "kinds" of astrologers. Some are oriented toward prediction of mundane events, some toward metaphysical thought, others toward building a reputable bank account. Some are traditional, others avant-garde. We have the natal astrologer, the electional specialist, the political thinker, the economist.... So just what is an an astrologer anyway?

Good point. Put a little differently, I think a horoscope says what kind of astrologer a personal would be. This could be the astrologer's focus, or it could just be a personal style.

Speaking of which (and greetings, Moira!) Dane Rudhyar seemed like a really Neptunian kind of guy. I read most of his books a while ago, and he seemed kind of out in the ether. I didn't get the feeling one could sit at the kitchen table with him and discuss specific financial or relationship problems. I think he was of a second generation of modern astrologers who came up through the theosophical movement.

miquar · Jan 31, 2012

Moira said:
Coincidentally, I just found Rudhyar's essay proposing Neptune as Astrology's ruler. Uranus is in the consciousness of distinctions, while Neptune is the consciousness of inclusion. Perhaps it requires talents of both in order to dissect a chart and keep up with continually new astrological theories (Uranus); then assimilate them into an understandable whole, which is continually open to new interpretation (Neptune).

http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astroarticles/doesuranusruleastrology.php

Pluto's hand in this carries a lot of weight concerning psychological and spiritual interests, which would contribute to one's purpose in using Astrology as an analytical process. But I see Pluto's rulership having more to do with the deeper/higher mystery of life, which actually is larger than the study of Astrology itself.

~ ~ ~

My first post in this forum finds some familiar and fair-minded thinkers here!

Moira

Welcome Moira. Look forward to more posts from you. Thought this was the best post on this thread so far - concise and profound at the same time.

Moira · Jan 31, 2012

waybread said:
Dane Rudhyar seemed like a really Neptunian kind of guy. I read most of his books a while ago, and he seemed kind of out in the ether. I didn't get the feeling one could sit at the kitchen table with him and discuss specific financial or relationship problems. I think he was of a second generation of modern astrologers who came up through the theosophical movement.

Hi Waybread :smile:

and laughs regarding bold, above. ... Dane was a 3rd house Aries Sun square Jupiter 7th ... "ain't nobody's business but his own" !!!

I took a quick look at his chart -- Moon/Merc conjunct 2nd square Uranus 11th and ... square Pluto/Neptune/Mars at 9-12-13 conjunct Gemini DSC ! To bring almost all previously mentioned planetary strengths into focus here, his Moon/Merc. also trine Saturn in the 10th. No obvious positions at 11 Virgo !!

So, his curiosity about human nature represented by the Uranus square Moon, and reiterated into themes observed & shared with humanity about its nature with Mercury square the Neppy stellium out of the 6th to DSC. The prodigious quantity of material he produced, and the dedication of others to his archive, are reflected by the strength of his Saturn trine.

Rudhyar's chart:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?...mqsCbpMEX3ydMn7dP-RKyZ8mr8fPGR23SzPp5_QK1yjMy

As to theosophy ... I wax that way myself sometimes ! Makes me a third generation modern astrologer ??? Maybe fourth ... :innocent:

~ ~ ~

Miquar, thanks for the welcome.

The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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