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  #226  
Unread 07-24-2019, 09:42 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Possibly Greeks invented and built it using Babylonian records and locations.
Hipparchus used Babylonian records in his calculations regarding Precession of the Equinoxes.

The new dating adds an additional twist to arguments
over which of the early Greek scientists, Hipparchus, Posidonius
or
according to the Roman scholar Cicero
Archimedes, might have been involved in its manufacture.
because
It is just seven years after Archimedes died

at the hands of a Roman soldier during the sacking of Syracuse
though whether this makes a direct link more or less likely
depends on whom you ask.

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  #227  
Unread 07-24-2019, 09:42 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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It has all the hallmarks of the Alexandrian scientific community.
What are the chances it was backdated to use the Babylonian eclipse as a reference point?
So much of of their work was destroyed, and the early Church would have considered it the work of the Devil.
Not surprising if records of its manufacture were expunged.

Although it is possible
that the device was configured

to start at a point in time earlier than its date of manufacture
that would make it less accurate

hence less useful
as tiny errors accumulate over time
And accuracy was clearly a primary concern of the maker
since the device gets its astronomy spot on.
Drs Carman and Evans research only became possible
after the discovery by Tony Freeth and his colleagues

that the dial on the lower back of the device corresponded to the Saros cycle of eclipses.
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  #228  
Unread 07-24-2019, 09:43 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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That makes it sound like it would have been accurate only within a specific timeframe then
only really accurate for that particular cycle of eclipses.
If it were accurate enough, it could be backdated using known records
and still work for future predictions.
Has it been rebuilt and tested for longer-term accuracy?

Not according to James Evans, professor of physics at University of Puget Sound
and Christián Carman, history of science professor at University of Quilmes, Argentina
bothof whom suggest that the Mechanism's workings point to Babylonian maths informing its construction.

That's not in the slightest remarkable:

even the doggrel version of history
knows there was contact between the two regions well before the 200 BC date
at which the Mechanism is thought to have been made.
By 200BC much of the Mediterranean and what we now call the Middle East
was ruled by Hellenic monarchs claiming connection to Alexander the Great's empire.
Those ancient nations shared a language and thought of themselves as fellow Greeks
or Macedonians
even when at war.
Cultural - exchange in the region was therefore normal
Antithykera Mechanism is now a little more mysterious

its origins may be even more complex than first imagined
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  #229  
Unread 07-24-2019, 09:47 PM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
It doesn't, but at some point conning enough people into believing something is true, is as good as (for those doing the conning anyway).
This triggered the memory of the Leonard Cohen song, "Everybody Knows". Now I'm going to have to study his Chart. Just took a quick look--very interesting, to say the least.
Astrologers of ancient times were greatly respected. There was no competition from atheistic science, demanding the type of statistical verification as in today's world.

Last edited by david starling; 07-24-2019 at 09:50 PM.
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  #230  
Unread 07-24-2019, 10:05 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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This triggered the memory of the Leonard Cohen song, "Everybody Knows". Now I'm going to have to study his Chart. Just took a quick look--very interesting, to say the least.
Astrologers of ancient times were greatly respected. There was no competition from atheistic science, demanding the type of statistical verification as in today's world.
In India they are still so respected. You may have seen the story of this fellow (who died in custody just recently I believe) - he had a murder committed, as he thought this was the correct way for him to follow astrological advice?

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...902-2019-07-10

Horrible, but I'm not sure that the atheistic scientists behind pharmaceutical agriculture are doing them any favors, either.

Off to look at Leonard Cohen's chart!

Last edited by passiflora; 07-24-2019 at 10:09 PM.
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  #231  
Unread 07-25-2019, 04:25 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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"Modern" astrology is the next phase AFTER "Traditional".
Today's astrologers are free to choose which phase in the long history of astrology to study and practice.
That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.

If modern astrology were to be the next phase ideally it should consider all the elements and techniques from traditional astrology and then add whatever it wants provided it is relatable to traditional astrolgoy which is not the case. The people who spearheaded the modern astrology took very little from traditional astrology and added so much of psychology and called it modern.

Would you take only one or two elements of baroque music and add some jazz (not the music but figuratively) called it next phase of baroque music?
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Last edited by lostinstars; 07-25-2019 at 04:53 AM.
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  #232  
Unread 07-25-2019, 04:39 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Rope Stretchers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKrX2nGEY2I

Euclid's 47th, a simple tool that easily shows the common angles used in building. Easy to make and utilize.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUm3Gqcd9a8
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  #233  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:03 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Rope Stretchers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKrX2nGEY2I

Euclid's 47th, a simple tool that easily shows the common angles used in building. Easy to make and utilize.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUm3Gqcd9a8
I don't know what you mean but if you are trying to convey we have to rely on earlier knowledge, of course there is no field in the world that does not rely on earlier knowledge but was born on its own one morning.
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Atum replied ‘I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.’
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  #234  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:26 AM
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That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.

If modern astrology were to be the next phase ideally it should consider all the elements and techniques from traditional astrology and then add whatever it wants provided it is relatable to traditional astrolgoy which is not the case. The people who spearheaded the modern astrology took very little from traditional astrology and added so much of psychology and called it modern.

Would you take only one or two elements of baroque music and add some jazz (not the music but figuratively) called it next phase of baroque music?
The next (and latest) phase of astrology itself is being labeled "Modern". It draws from the past phases of astrology to create something new. Hellenistic astrologers did the same thing regarding Egyptian and Babylonian techniques--kept what worked for them, and discarded the rest. It was no longer Egyptian or Babylonian, just as "Modern" is no longer "Traditional" (defined as Hellenistic through to, and including, the Renaissance).
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  #235  
Unread 07-25-2019, 06:01 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

The music analogy is a good one. There are lovers of Classical who despise the music that came later: "You call THAT music?!!?"

And, there are also those who respect and even enjoy the best of the later music, although Classical is still by far their favorite.
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  #236  
Unread 07-25-2019, 06:04 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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The next (and latest) phase of astrology itself is being labeled "Modern". It draws from the past phases of astrology to create something new. Hellenistic astrologers did the same thing regarding Egyptian and Babylonian techniques--kept what worked for them, and discarded the rest. It was no longer Egyptian or Babylonian, just as "Modern" is no longer "Traditional" (defined as Hellenistic through to, and including, the Renaissance).
Ok, in the future if modern astrologers further modernise their game and completely do away with natal chart because it doesn't matter what a client chart says, we know the problem and we know what planet is responsible, so why bother with natal chart but barrage them with pyschoanalysis, would you still call it astrology something like neomodern or epimodern with some weird name?

Where would you do draw the line?
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  #237  
Unread 07-25-2019, 06:33 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Ok, in the future if modern astrologers further modernise their game and completely do away with natal chart because it doesn't matter what a client chart says, we know the problem and we know what planet is responsible, so why bother with natal chart but barrage them with pyschoanalysis, would you still call it astrology something like neomodern or epimodern with some weird name?

Where would you do draw the line?
Well, I'm all about the Natal-chart. I doubt that whatever this new method ended up being called ("Astro-Psych"?) would get enough clients to be considered a dominant form of astrology. What's now (awkwardly) called "Modern" would still be the most popular.
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  #238  
Unread 07-25-2019, 07:15 AM
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"Astro-Psych" astrology! I should trademark that!
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  #239  
Unread 07-25-2019, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.

If modern astrology were to be the next phase ideally it should consider all the elements and techniques from traditional astrology and then add whatever it wants provided it is relatable to traditional astrolgoy which is not the case. The people who spearheaded the modern astrology took very little from traditional astrology and added so much of psychology and called it modern.

Would you take only one or two elements of baroque music and add some jazz (not the music but figuratively) called it next phase of baroque music?
Actually there are many "styles" in modern astrology. It's not the method but the interpretation of the astrologer that makes a difference. How limited it is or how free flowing it is.

In that sense,baroque music will always be that, but it's pretty much dead cos we aren't in the baroque anymore. That can 0retty much be applied to traditional astrology. Baroque music was relevant for it's times , it's not anymore. Yeah,some people still might like to listen to it, but it's a minority. Most people are present in the modern times and listen to modern music.

However ,if people didn't dare to take something old and renovae it, we wouldn't have so much great art. Taking elements from the old classics and adding a pinch of modernism is what makes great art. It's same with astrology. It's at and everyone is allowed to create as they want. Art still has "rules" but in the end it's art and rules are made to be broken haha.

You still have rules of proportions in art, but if everyone followed them,man would art be boring. Same with astrology.
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  #240  
Unread 07-25-2019, 11:28 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.
"Finally"? Trad isn't the end of the astrological line. But, if that's where you prefer to get off, no problem.
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  #241  
Unread 07-25-2019, 12:01 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Actually there are many "styles" in modern astrology. It's not the method but the interpretation of the astrologer that makes a difference. How limited it is or how free flowing it is.

In that sense,baroque music will always be that, but it's pretty much dead cos we aren't in the baroque anymore. That can 0retty much be applied to traditional astrology. Baroque music was relevant for it's times , it's not anymore. Yeah,some people still might like to listen to it, but it's a minority. Most people are present in the modern times and listen to modern music.

However ,if people didn't dare to take something old and renovae it, we wouldn't have so much great art. Taking elements from the old classics and adding a pinch of modernism is what makes great art. It's same with astrology. It's at and everyone is allowed to create as they want. Art still has "rules" but in the end it's art and rules are made to be broken haha.

You still have rules of proportions in art, but if everyone followed them,man would art be boring. Same with astrology.
We are talking two different things, it doesn't matter how many listen to baroque music now but you can't call a music baroque if it doesn't meet all its elements. You seem to say it doesn't matter.
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  #242  
Unread 07-25-2019, 04:28 PM
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We are talking two different things, it doesn't matter how many listen to baroque music now but you can't call a music baroque if it doesn't meet all its elements. You seem to say it doesn't matter.
Yes, but astrology is like the music itself, not the specific genre. Trad and Mod are genres of astrology. Baroque and jazz are genres of music.
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  #243  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:13 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Yes, but astrology is like the music itself, not the specific genre. Trad and Mod are genres of astrology. Baroque and jazz are genres of music.
That is a very uninformed statement from modern astrologers, you can't compare astrology to music, astrology was developed from building blocks like astronomy, and sacred geometry (and little philosophy) while music is inherent in cosmos as sound. Genres of music are fundamentally different types of sounds produced by different instruments together.

Comparing astrology to music is like comparing a martial arts form to colours in nature.
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  #244  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:19 PM
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That is a very uninformed statement from modern astrologers, you can't compare astrology to music, astrology was developed from building blocks like astronomy, and sacred geometry (and little philosophy) while music is inherent in cosmos as sound. Genres of music are fundamentally different types of sounds produced by different instruments together.

Comparing astrology to music is like comparing a martial arts form to colours in nature.
Are you aware that astrology literally has a "Muse", from which comes the word "music"? "Music of the spheres" is another reference to astrology .
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  #245  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:21 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

The music of the spheres!
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  #246  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:33 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Are you aware that astrology literally has a "Muse", from which comes the word "music"? "Music of the spheres" is another reference to astrology .
A statement of distraction, typical in arguments. I will play along, Muses inspired many things, why don't we make a new branch of astrology called "modern dramatic psycho analysis" and bring in Greek drama as well?

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.
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  #247  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:44 PM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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A statement of distraction, typical in arguments. I will play along, Muses inspired many things, why don't we make a new branch of astrology called "modern dramatic psycho analysis" and bring in Greek drama as well?

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.
Urania, goddess of the Heavens, Muse of both Astrology and Astronomy in ancient Greece, where Traditionalistic astrology first development. The Music of the Spheres is part of the Traditionalistic genre.
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  #248  
Unread 07-25-2019, 05:54 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Urania, goddess of the Heavens, Muse of both Astrology and Astronomy in ancient Greece, where Traditionalistic astrology first development. The Music of the Spheres is part of the Traditionalistic genre.
No body is denying that but I already said it.

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.

You took the discussion from actual genres of music which I can perceive with my ears to harmony of the universe which was expounded by Pythagoras through numbers and sacred geometry and you seem to be calling both the same. One is audible one is a concept which was seen by ancients.

Modern astrologers should not take everything so superficially but should do some thorough research at least for themselves to be considered better astrologers.
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  #249  
Unread 07-25-2019, 06:07 PM
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No body is denying that but I already said it.

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.

You took the discussion from actual genres of music which I can perceive with my ears to harmony of the universe which was expounded by Pythagoras through numbers and sacred geometry and you seem to be calling both the same. One is audible one is a concept which was seen by ancients.

Modern astrologers should not take everything so superficially but should do some thorough research at least for themselves to be considered better astrologers.
Actually, Pythagoras believed there was an audible hum involved regarding the Spheres. He also initiated the literal connection between audible music and numbering patterns in mathematics.
Musical categories was your analogy, and a valid one. And, just as many lovers of Classical music consider Jazz too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of what they consider music to actually be, many Trads consider Mod to be too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of astrology.
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  #250  
Unread 07-25-2019, 06:08 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Now my freestanding comment about 'music of the spheres' looks silly, because it was posted while David was editing his comment immediately after posting

lostinstars, "music of the spheres" is an example of music as a valid analogy for astrology, but it frankly seems easier for you to dole out insults than engage, so enough.

Quote:
That is a very uninformed statement from modern astrologers, you can't compare astrology to music, astrology was developed from building blocks like astronomy, and sacred geometry (and little philosophy) while music is inherent in cosmos as sound. Genres of music are fundamentally different types of sounds produced by different instruments together.
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