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  #151  
Unread 07-23-2019, 06:19 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
As much as I respect trad, I can't get past the notion that your entire fate is written on the stars. Supposed someone got a great chart confirmed by an astrologer vs someone with a bad chart, does it mean the great chart is blessed for life and the bad chart is ******? What if the one with the great chart ends up wasting their gift and the one with the bad chart finds a way to make their life less miserable? It's like Jupiter and Saturn. Jupiter's gift can be taken for granted, and Saturn's burden can be used as an advantage
It is not possible, the fate plays out, fate always has the final say. As I mentioned before on this thread and I always swear by the statement that when everything goes well no one calls it fate eg., my fate wanted me to be a rockstar or wealthy so I'm a rockstar or wealthy but only when someone has a horrible disease or on the roads struggling to get food s/he will say I don't deserve this, it is my fate.

If you talk to very old people and ask them if things worked out for them they will say things always work out and give you a smile.

As I explained here that should not stop anyone from taking action.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=123

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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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  #152  
Unread 07-23-2019, 06:23 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
A bit off topic, but care to share a bit about your Saturn? My Saturn is in Pisces and in 12H, an odd place for Saturn to be in.
Mine is a day chart and diurnal Saturn is close to my ascendant, also I have Jupiter in Capricorn, fortunately no planet in Aquarius. I have dry followed by moist as top two temperaments in that order.

Depending on the levels of cold and dry temperaments along with earth element one has melancholic temperament as the most significant or significant enough to impact the outlook on life.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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  #153  
Unread 07-23-2019, 07:00 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It is not possible, the fate plays out, fate always has the final say. As I mentioned before on this thread and I always swear by the statement that when everything goes well no one calls it fate eg., my fate wanted me to be a rockstar or wealthy so I'm a rockstar or wealthy but only when someone has a horrible disease or on the roads struggling to get food s/he will say I don't deserve this, it is my fate.

If you talk to very old people and ask them if things worked out for them they will say things always work out and give you a smile.

As I explained here that should not stop anyone from taking action.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=123
Sounds like a Traditionalistic reading can be used in a fatalistic way, whereas a Modernistic reading, when done properly, can be used to inspire creative solutions. I, for one, prefer the latter.
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  #154  
Unread 07-23-2019, 11:12 AM
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ardentika ardentika is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
My intention is not to denigrate modern astrology but the confusion it would cause to people who may genuinely seek help with tangible results, more action and less psychological anlaysis. Some modern astrologers are really good but they are not for everybody I believe as their expertise in analysing placements and aspects might not help them in what action they should take to achieve something.
First of all I wasn't blaming you on anything ,if you felt blamed take this to yourself.

Also it's absolutely delusional to think YOU can make a decision for someone and tell them what to do to fix their lives. The idea is to present people with areas they might be struggling with and advice them how to possibly navigate it but not give them ready fixes nor outcomes. You aren't god, you can't do that as much as you might want. This isn't help, it's projection. And projection rarely helps.

And why you think "new age" spirituality doesn't offer action? For someone who claims they know that area, you certainly don't sound so, since spirituality offer only ways how to better your life which IS action. I honestly still don't get your stand, you are ambiguous and it sounds like you yourself don't understand what you talk about or can't express it well enough for me to understand .
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  #155  
Unread 07-23-2019, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Mine is a day chart and diurnal Saturn is close to my ascendant, also I have Jupiter in Capricorn, fortunately no planet in Aquarius. I have dry followed by moist as top two temperaments in that order.

Depending on the levels of cold and dry temperaments along with earth element one has melancholic temperament as the most significant or significant enough to impact the outlook on life.
Is that how you determined Saturn is strong in your chart? I have a strong Saturn too and I don't go to tradition. Saturn is Conjunct my asc, square Jupiter and Pluto , opposite Mars, trine Venus. I am a capricorn with Cap stellium. Maybe you can blame it on the fact that in sidereal My Saturn and asc are aqua ?

Joke aside , I wouldn't blame preferences on planets for obvious reasons lol. I don't have much respect for traditions if I don't find value in them. Definitely not because it's a tradition only. I use my own brain
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  #156  
Unread 07-23-2019, 11:53 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Is that how you determined Saturn is strong in your chart?
That is what the traditional astrology says, I'm not going to argue with its methods as I find them to be quite valid and I have verified using other methods - one particular website shows earth as the dominant element with Saturn as the strongest planet, while astro.com shows earth as the dominant element and another planet as the strongest planet while a third website shows earth as the dominant element and Uranus as the dominant planet.

Chart rulers in the Vedic astrology exists in a special branch called Jaimini astrology and Saturn happens to be the strongest planet in my chart as it is the one with the maximum degrees in my chart.

Everyone uses a different method to calculate so why not stick to the ancient astrologers, it is personal opinion, not going to argue on this. Besides Venus is my Lady of the Geniture in my chart.

I never said I have the strongest Saturn for any human being on the planet. And this thread is not a contest to see who has the strongest Saturn but about fate and free will.

You have Venus trine Saturn as you say so don't you think the Lady planet is lessening the impact of squares and opposition, also don't you think Jupiter is also causing strain on Saturn due to the square, I believe he must be mellowing Saturn a little asking him to attend his weekend parties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Joke aside , I wouldn't blame preferences on planets for obvious reasons lol
I'm not blaming it was a joke but I'm convinced Saturn put me on the path to study traditional astrology, I'm happy that I'm on this path. I would not have got into astrology if I didn't have some bad experiences.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-23-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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  #157  
Unread 07-23-2019, 12:06 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post

First of all I wasn't blaming you on anything,
if you felt blamed take this to yourself.
Also it's absolutely delusional
to think YOU can make a decision for someone
and tell them what to do to fix their lives.
instead
explain they aren't being blamed for anything
and to
"fix their lives"
advising the person
to "take this to yourself"
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

The idea is to present people with areas they might be struggling with
and advice them how to possibly navigate it
but not give them ready fixes nor outcomes.
You aren't god, you can't do that as much as you might want.
This isn't help, it's projection. And projection rarely helps.

And why you think "new age" spirituality doesn't offer action? For someone who claims they know that area, you certainly don't sound so, since spirituality offer only ways how to better your life which IS action. I honestly still don't get your stand, you are ambiguous and it sounds like you yourself don't understand what you talk about
or can't express it well enough for me to understand .
when a person has not understood
clearly
neither they
nor the person doing the explaining
is at fault
and not unusual
to allow time in order to process the given information
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #158  
Unread 07-23-2019, 12:32 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

And this thread is not a contest to see who has the strongest Saturn
but about fate and free will.
and on that note
a very old doctrine from very early Hellenistic astrology
- attributed to Nechepso and Petosiris
is known as

FINDING THE MASTER OF THE NATIVITY
i.e. the Epikratator aka Predominator aka Apheta aka Hyleg
the Oikodespotes aka the Domicile Master aka Alcocoden aka Personal Daimon or Angel
and
the Kurious aka the Lord of the Nativity
- sometimes also considered the Personal Daimon
is a a rulership system
used for assessing the general predominant quality of life
its general directive and the manner of its execution.

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/help-do5/do2400.html

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 07-23-2019 at 12:36 PM.
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  #159  
Unread 07-23-2019, 12:42 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
FINDING THE MASTER OF THE NATIVITY
i.e. the Epikratator aka Predominator aka Apheta aka Hyleg
the Oikodespotes aka the Domicile Master aka Alcocoden aka Personal Daimon or Angel
and
the Kurious aka the Lord of the Nativity
- sometimes also considered the Personal Daimon
is a a rulership system
used for assessing the general predominant quality of life
its general directive and the manner of its execution.

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/help-do5/do2400.html

So Master of the Nativity is different from Lord of the Nativity?
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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  #160  
Unread 07-23-2019, 02:19 PM
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[deleted quote of attacking comment - Moderator]

That's not what I meant. I've seen many people believe in outdated traditions for the sake of it being a tradition. Slavery was a tradition as well. I wasn't coming at anyone. Don't be offended when it wasn't targeted at anyone specific .
Not many people chose to believe something cos it makes sense to them and it works. I've celebrated Christmas forever and I don't believe in it. It's a stupid tradition. I see no point in it.

Last edited by wilsontc; 08-03-2019 at 04:44 PM.
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  #161  
Unread 07-23-2019, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
That is what the traditional astrology says, I'm not going to argue with its methods as I find them to be quite valid and I have verified using other methods - one particular website shows earth as the dominant element with Saturn as the strongest planet, while astro.com shows earth as the dominant element and another planet as the strongest planet while a third website shows earth as the dominant element and Uranus as the dominant planet.

Chart rulers in the Vedic astrology exists in a special branch called Jaimini astrology and Saturn happens to be the strongest planet in my chart as it is the one with the maximum degrees in my chart.

Everyone uses a different method to calculate so why not stick to the ancient astrologers, it is personal opinion, not going to argue on this. Besides Venus is my Lady of the Geniture in my chart.

I never said I have the strongest Saturn for any human being on the planet. And this thread is not a contest to see who has the strongest Saturn but about fate and free will.

You have Venus trine Saturn as you say so don't you think the Lady planet is lessening the impact of squares and opposition, also don't you think Jupiter is also causing strain on Saturn due to the square, I believe he must be mellowing Saturn a little asking him to attend his weekend parties?



I'm not blaming it was a joke but I'm convinced Saturn put me on the path to study traditional astrology, I'm happy that I'm on this path. I would not have got into astrology if I didn't have some bad experiences.
I honestly don't know if it's that or just Saturn isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

I'm not gonna argue methods cos I've seen them all point to the same picture so generally that doesn't matter. The energies always somehow stay the same, it's what we do with them that matters to me.

And I didn't mean blame as in blame but as in put the meaning and action into one planet. I just don't see it working as that.

People who get in astrology are people who want some sort of explanation and understanding of the universe and meaning of life. Everyone ends up finding their own unique meaning in the same tool, and we can't argue what's right or wrong cos this thing doesn't exist. All there is is just ways and experiences.

If we were more aware tho we could actually chose to change a certain experience or simply accept it.
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  #162  
Unread 07-23-2019, 02:27 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Saturn's influence is like the brakes. Would you drive a car without brakes? Conversely, if all you do is apply the the brakes, you can't get anywhere.
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  #163  
Unread 07-23-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Saturn's influence is like the brakes. Would you drive a car without brakes? Conversely, if all you do is apply the the brakes, you can't get anywhere.
Indeed that's a good interpretation.
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  #164  
Unread 07-23-2019, 02:55 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I honestly don't know if it's that or just Saturn isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

I'm not gonna argue methods cos I've seen them all point to the same picture so generally that doesn't matter. The energies always somehow stay the same, it's what we do with them that matters to me.

And I didn't mean blame as in blame but as in put the meaning and action into one planet. I just don't see it working as that.

People who get in astrology are people who want some sort of explanation and understanding of the universe and meaning of life. Everyone ends up finding their own unique meaning in the same tool, and we can't argue what's right or wrong cos this thing doesn't exist. All there is is just ways and experiences.

If we were more aware tho we could actually chose to change a certain experience or simply accept it.
Saturn is no doubt the greater malefic because his methods are cruel. They may be good for an individual or not but can only be confirmed down the line. We all have our role to play in the way fate unfolds. He does not care for individuals but in the humanity as a whole so you will be forced to take up the role you were assigned.

If some powerful being comes to me and says you will have to give up your job and get into some serious occult study struggling for money, I would say hell no. But if I'm forced to do it I can still protest and refuse to participate but then suddenly I get fired and no one hires me for so long that I will lose hope and then somehow get into occult and get serious, things start falling in place. Is this exaggerated? No. Is it my story? Thankfully not yet. This is how fate unfolds.

People who think it is beneath their dignity to accept that fate is stronger can think of it like butterfly effect. There are so many butterfly effect experiences on reddit and youtube where things worked out for individuals for the unconscious choices they made.

Nietzsche challenged humans to put heroic efforts and to live dangerously but also advocated to embrace fate, "Amor fati". He knew what life was all about! His chart was diurnal and he had Saturn in Aquarius.
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  #165  
Unread 07-23-2019, 04:02 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

OP still hasnt provided an example of a Trad reading that helped him figure out the precise degree of free will he might have in his own chart. I also dont think there has been any satisfying explanation of experiences of others that can justify the global statements being made.
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  #166  
Unread 07-23-2019, 04:48 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

I kinda wanna join in the free will conversation, but Idk how to do that astrologically... lol

I just don't think astrology would work if we had free will in any capacity. I mean free will might be a thing, but I don't think it's common or that some people have more or less of it based on their chart. Although, a recent conversation has me thinking that the fates might influence one's path towards exercising free will. Some very limited and uncommon few might be fated to exercise it, but I believe most will not.

I live in a completely deterministic mind frame and it doesn't bother me. Split-brain studies have me thinking that free will is an illusion and further that we come up with reasons for our behaviors post-behavior.

I wonder what in a chart shows one's belief or desire for self-efficacy. I think this belief or lack thereof could be shown in the core of the natal chart possibly?

Edit: Further, I know some people use determinism as an excuse to do nothing and feel embittered by their 'fate', but I don't view fate as stagnant. I don't think just because fate made you tend towards depression that you'll never 'overcome' or transform or evolve/change. I figure fate is woven together and everyone is meant to grow at some point, but I don't think it's pure self-will that drives it and that actually feels fine to me. lol

Last edited by moonkat235; 07-23-2019 at 05:03 PM.
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  #167  
Unread 07-23-2019, 05:05 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
OP still hasnt provided an example of a Trad reading that helped him figure out the precise degree of free will he might have in his own chart. I also dont think there has been any satisfying explanation of experiences of others that can justify the global statements being made.

I don't want to get personal sharing my experiences which I'm not proud of in an open forum, how would you want me to answer?
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  #168  
Unread 07-23-2019, 05:09 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I kinda wanna join in the free will conversation, but Idk how to do that astrologically... lol

I just don't think astrology would work if we had free will in any capacity. I mean free will might be a thing, but I don't think it's common or that some people have more or less of it based on their chart. Although, a recent conversation has me thinking that the fates might influence one's path towards exercising free will. Some very limited and uncommon few might be fated to exercise it, but I believe most will not.

I live in a completely deterministic mind frame and it doesn't bother me. Split-brain studies have me thinking that free will is an illusion and further that we come up with reasons for our behaviors post-behavior.

I wonder what in a chart shows one's belief or desire for self-efficacy. I think this belief or lack thereof could be shown in the core of the natal chart possibly?

Edit: Further, I know some people use determinism as an excuse to do nothing and feel embittered by their 'fate', but I don't view fate as stagnant. I don't think just because fate made you tend towards depression that you'll never 'overcome' or transform or evolve/change. I figure fate is woven together and everyone is meant to grow at some point, but I don't think it's pure self-will that drives it and that actually feels fine to me. lol

You are late to the party, as always a heated debate between traditional astrology viewpoints and modern astrology viewpoints on fate and free will.
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  #169  
Unread 07-23-2019, 05:17 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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You are late to the party, as always a heated debate between traditional astrology viewpoints and modern astrology viewpoints on fate and free will.
So I can't really speak astrologically on modern vs traditional, but the concept of prediction in general makes me think that everything is fated. Astrology might not be able to predict everything given the techniques we have now, but I figure it's more an error in our foundation of knowledge or human error rather than that free will intervenes and makes predictions hit or miss.

Sorry to be late to the party. I haven't read everything yet tbh. Lemme know if I'm repeating what everyone else is saying!
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Unread 07-23-2019, 05:24 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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So I can't really speak astrologically on modern vs traditional, but the concept of prediction in general makes me think that everything is fated.
That is a good point in the same way as people ask if they have free will because they would have been bombared with so many fated events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Sorry to be late to the party. I haven't read everything yet tbh. Lemme know if I'm repeating what everyone else is saying!
Don't be, we are all still learing but there are some experts around on this forum.
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  #171  
Unread 07-23-2019, 10:30 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

a very old doctrine from very early Hellenistic astrology
- attributed to Nechepso and Petosiris
is known as

FINDING THE MASTER OF THE NATIVITY
i.e. the Epikratator aka Predominator aka Apheta aka Hyleg
the Oikodespotes aka the Domicile Master aka Alcocoden aka Personal Daimon or Angel
and
the Kurious aka the Lord of the Nativity
- sometimes also considered the Personal Daimon
is a a rulership system
used for assessing the general predominant quality of life
its general directive and the manner of its execution.

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/help-do5/do2400.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

So Master of the Nativity is different from Lord of the Nativity?

Exactly - ROBERT SCHMIDT http://www.projecthindsight.com/index1.html
devised THE NAUTICAL METAPHOR
The ship is the entire chart
Ascendant of natal chart is the HELM
there are techniques to determine THE WINDS
THE STEERSMAN
THE OWNER OF THE SHIP and so on
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  #172  
Unread 07-24-2019, 02:56 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I notice many Traditionalistic astrologers have "a chip on their shoulders" regarding Modernistic astrology.
I think this is because Trad astrology was designed to foresee things in a long period of time. Trad was so fixated with the idea that astrology was a product of the Higher Being and an accurate tool to determine the future, so when modern astrology came and spread the notion that free will also plays a large part, it's like a shattered dream for Trad. Astrology is no longer view as the ultimate prediction tool, and that doesn't sit well with Trad's hard work.


Also, modern is much simpler. There is no such thing as sect, moist, dry... As a result astrology became much more accessible to the public. Trad wasn't designed to be accessible to the masses. That's like being a film director and seeing people with no experience putting great videos on Youtube. You don't work hard just to lose over some random uneducated people huh?


It could also be the mistake of linking modern to tabloid sun-sign horoscope too.


I also notice that modern astrologers are more willing to dig into Trad than Trad do to modern
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Unread 07-24-2019, 03:13 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

The older trend is that those who found traditional did so after being disillusioned with modern astrology. There is enough available these days that someone can jump righy into learning traditional without any exposure to modern astrology and its ideas but that is a much more recent thing.
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Unread 07-24-2019, 03:27 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

neotraditionalism is actually newest kid on the block in the western astrology world.
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Unread 07-24-2019, 03:33 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Modernistic astrologers discount the "Lights" theory
of Traditionalistic astrology.
That's a game-changer.
Traditionally "The Lights" = Sun and Moon
good luck with "discounting" the Sun and the Moon
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