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  #151  
Unread 09-29-2015, 01:03 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

So, there's a Mercury-Jupiter connection in astrology. Jupiter is the largest planet in our solar system. In traditional astrology, Jupiter rules Pisces where Mercury happens to be its detriment. Oddity: Responding to your post response from July, I'm very aware all planets in astrology are important. I commented about my sun/Moon Aquarius placed in 8th near my Mercury in Pisces in 9th. Do you know what that means?

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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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  #152  
Unread 09-29-2015, 04:39 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

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Originally Posted by Caprising View Post
Good point, which begs one to ask the question of who assigned the rulership of the sign of Pisces to Jupiter?......
You have go back to the time when the choice of planets ended at Saturn, now who would you have given the Pisces rulership to?
It's in the thema mundi - http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/w...undi-large.jpg

We know that Saturn is like an opposition because its houses, Capricorn and Aquarius, oppose the houses of the moon and the sun. We know that Jupiter is like a trine because it trines the sun from its day-house, Sagittarius, and trines the moon from its night-house, Pisces. We know that Mars is like a square, because it squares the moon from its day-house, Aries, and squares the sun from its night-house, Scorpio. We know that Venus is like a sextile, because it sextiles the sun from its day-house, Libra, and the moon from its night-house, Taurus. Mercury, being right next to the sun and moon picks up the influence of that which it is next to.

So...is Pisces the day-house or the night-house of Neptune? What gender is Neptune? Which sect? Where are its other dignities?

The more I look at it, the more it seems the concept of rulership at all doesn't fit into the modern schemata. Not a criticism. An observation.
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  #153  
Unread 09-29-2015, 05:24 AM
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Smile Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Oddity, sign-rulership is vital to me as a "modern" Tropical astrologer. We need Traditionalism as the roots, and modern for the branches. And, in branching out, we have to let much of the Traditional schemata go in order to expand the rulership pattern. Thank the Trads for protecting the roots!
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  #154  
Unread 09-29-2015, 06:29 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

This thread – a great thread which has been around for a long time now – already offers argument and testimonial against the common notion that Mercury somehow doesn’t work well in Pisces. But allow me to add to it...

As a Virgo rising and Gemini Midheaven, my Pisces Mercury is of central importance in my chart. Just one degree off my descendant, it sits square to Saturn (within one degree), and Neptune (within nine degrees), making it the base of a wide t-square that winds up having real power in my chart due to it’s very close alignment with my angular cusps. To many an eye my Mercury is badly placed, and given it’s centrality in my chart we might think that would bode very poorly for my life.

And yet I’m an Ivy League trained PhD and a working professor. While it’s true that all academics focus on certain fields over others, and my smarts aren’t equal in all areas, I’m serious when I say that I’d put my raw intelligence up against anybody’s in the world. (Which I say, of course, purely for the sake of astrological inquiry and not at all out of some Arian boasting!)

I’m going to say that if the Piscean Mercury starts out essentially musical and metaphor-minded, in it’s great flexibility and (maybe more correctly) receptivity, it can be disciplined and trained, shown the ways of solid structure, empirical observation and hard analysis. Underneath these things, always, the Pisces mercury will be singing the universe to light, dancing endlessly through oceans of ambiguity and symbolism, synthesizing the component pieces to reveal the oneness of everything. But to communicate what it sees I think the Piscean Mercury can learn any language, including Logic, Rigor, Stuffy and Math (which at a certain level actually starts to look very mystical).



I really like what Oddity is doing just a few posts above this one. Great stuff! I’ve long wanted to write something about Gemini as the first sign of distinction/duality, and how that connects it so intimately with language. (Though it’s probably already written somewhere, by a real astrologer…) Language is only made possible in the act of distinguishing concepts, and distinguishing the squiggles and sounds we use to signify those concepts. The difference between “cat” and “cut” is only a slight squiggle in the second letter, but that distinction allows us to envision two separate concepts in our mind. And so, with each distinction, a whole system of language grows.

When we turn to Virgo, Mercury again is cutting, parsing out and making distinctions. Here the mind is less focused on the pure form of ideas, as it is in Gemini, and more on the practical. Science applied. But still, essentially, Virgo is making distinctions. Analysis is actually the act of taking a whole and parsing it out into smaller component parts. It’s the opposite of the Piscean/Neptunian impulse to synthesize and dissolve distinctions: to take component parts and see them as a whole -- a whole the sum of which is greater than the parts.

Looked at that way, Mercury’s basic nature seems at odds with Neptune, for sure, and as byjove and Oddity suggest, seemingly Jupiter as well. But why be satisfied to think the mind is working best when it’s dissecting and making distinctions, analyzing and bringing clarity to our language? Don’t our minds also and equally need to synthesize? To merge together? To create ambiguity in murky symbolism?

The Piscean mind is musical because music is symphonic. If you tear apart a symphony, or even a pop song, into it’s individual tracks and play them one by one, you’ve actually killed the song. Or at least reduced it to something less. The human mind analyses, yes. But the human mind also has to merge together in symphonic harmony.

The Piscean mind is sympathetic because the human capacity for sympathy is a dissolution of the mental space between us --- a momentary merging of our emotional lives. Yes, we are each separate individuals, with our own unique psyches. But we don’t actually exist in emotional isolation. The merest love, the merest friendship, or even just the involuntary twinge of pain we feel when we walk by somebody else in pain, reminds us of that.

Yes, we need clear language and sharp argument to spell a thesis out to us systematically. But we also need poetry – waves of symbols that merge together in ways we can feel but never entirely explain – to grasp why this or that thesis really matters in our lives.

Mercury in Pisces is of a different nature than the essentially distinction-oriented nature of Gemini or Virgo, but human life does require we have both, and balance, those mental natures. To my mind, it’s not actually about Mercury fitting “poorly” or “well.”
And again, I'd strongly suggest that whatever lack in rigor, structure, discipline, distinction-making or practicality we may think Pisces Mercury suffers from, it's well equipped to simply absorb that trait and make it a part of it's own nature.

Last edited by Birch Dragon; 09-29-2015 at 06:39 AM.
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  #155  
Unread 09-29-2015, 06:41 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

A few things that might tickle you then. Mercury joys in the first house because it rules the tongue and language, language being a big part of what makes you - you.

The moon is the instinctive, non-rational mind, and the sun is the light of mind, or consciousness. In hermetic thought, the mind is what works on the brain - it's rather too important to be left to one planet alone.

I always get the impression when I say 'Mercury is detrimented and in fall in Pisces' that what people are hearing is: 'Odd just said I'm an idiot'.

Not the case, but it means Mercury is working against its grain. You have Mercury ruled signs rising and on the midheaven? How have things been in your profession and being known in the world, and with your health and other first house matters? If they're all terrific, Jupiter (Mercury's ruler in your chart) is probably well-placed. If they aren't so great, you're experiencing some of that detriment and fall.

It doesn't make you stupid. It means a planet isn't doing its proper job for you. You've talked about some of the creative ways to work around that, and they are there. But in my experience, the debility will show up somewhere, either in the house where the debilitated planet is, or in the houses it rules.

Cheers.
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  #156  
Unread 09-29-2015, 08:18 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

^^^

Birch Dragon just illustrated in poetic motion and intelligence, the higher octave of Mercury's gifts in Pisces. I couldn't have put it better myself. I felt the poetry and symphony in that construction.

Oddity, as for fall and detriment, the sad truth is, it's clear to me that many astrologers believe that M in P natives are in fact idiots. I've come across more critical laughs, jokes and this:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=31548

than I have with any more detrimented placing. Why is that, I wonder?

I've said it before, I've never seen that view with the Sun in fall in Libra natives. Are they incapable or stupid? Of course not.

I found this in my opening post:

"Although Mercury is in detriment in Pisces, this position does not impair intelligence. It merely suggests that the mind resists the rule of pure logic and refuses to be pinned down to hard facts..."

http://www.mindfire.ca/The%20Planets...n%20Pisces.htm

Another eloquent quote:

Mercury is also in its fall in this sign, showing that ultimately criticism and analysis must be dissolved in compassion, thereby making love rather than intellect the guiding principle of life.

Last edited by byjove; 09-29-2015 at 08:29 AM. Reason: quote
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  #157  
Unread 09-29-2015, 08:44 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

I don't think so. The vast, vast majority of astrologers around practise modern astrology, and have no truck with such dodgy ideas as detriment, fall, or God forbid, malefics! They say much worse things about traditional astrologers (purveyors of doom that they see us to be) than they do about people with Mercury in Pisces.

Or okay, someone wants to feel superior (astrologers with powerz, sadly they are around) and says that whatever is debilitated is representative of how YOU are defective. Not always the case. It can be, sometimes, but those planets in exaltation and rulership can be pretty snotty to deal with, too. Especially when someone's regaling you with stories of how spiritually evolved they are because of that, you peon-who-will-reincarnate-as-roadkill-you.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Planets in detriment and fall are working against their own natures. Again, there are some creative work-arounds. Go look at Arthur Ashe's chart for a prime example.

But that only goes so far - unless there are some serious mitigating circumstances, there will be problems in the areas of life the planet rules in your chart. That does not necessarily mean that you're doing something wrong, though you may be, because none of us is perfect. Sometimes it's just a horrible series of circumstances because the planet can't bring about good.

I know that's a difficult concept in modern astrology, where the worst things that can happen to you are only 'challenging', but real life - it doesn't work that way.
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  #158  
Unread 09-29-2015, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
^^^

Birch Dragon just illustrated in poetic motion and intelligence, the higher octave of Mercury's gifts in Pisces. I couldn't have put it better myself. I felt the poetry and symphony in that construction. "
byjove, you're a wonderful human being with astoundingly good taste!!! (If I could find a winking emoji face I'd stick it in here.) I've always enjoyed your posts and the threads you create...

Quote:
Mercury is also in its fall in this sign, showing that ultimately criticism and analysis must be dissolved in compassion, thereby making love rather than intellect the guiding principle of life.
Super well quoted!!!
For me, this quote has serious resonance, the likes of which I can't begin to get into...

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  #159  
Unread 10-01-2015, 04:51 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Thanks Oddity.
And I realize we won't agree on this - which is fine - but I just can't help myself to point out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
It means a planet isn't doing its proper job for you. You've talked about some of the creative ways to work around that, and they are there. But in my experience, the debility will show up somewhere, either in the house where the debilitated planet is, or in the houses it rules.
This is exactly what I'm trying to suggest against. I'm not suggesting that I've had to work around a Mercury that isn't doing it's proper job. I'm suggesting that my Mercury is great in Pisces. It analyses. It synthesizes. It's logical. It's poetic. If the proper job of Mercury is only two of these four, than I want a Mercury that can do its proper job and more...
Of course, as always, ultimately this discussion would have to be about the whole chart... But as a person who makes their career on their mind, I wouldn't trade my Mercury in Pisces for any other option put on the table.
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  #160  
Unread 02-02-2016, 04:24 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

I have mercury in the 11th house at 16 degrees pisces and I have fun doing maths but I guess that's mostly because I love my math teacher . . . I'm also not too shabby at these maths things (unless I'm doing it totally bizarre and not using logic at all . . . ) I do prefer using creativity a lot more than logic though, but I like using logic to show that I can do it and that I'm not a total wacko . . . like, I've got a brain hEllo
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  #161  
Unread 02-02-2016, 05:27 AM
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Smile Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Yeah, I have Merc. mid-Pisces (in H1). Impatient with rules and formulas, but I can follow and use them if necessary. I prefer original-thinking to rote. One person's character-flaw is another's valuable character-trait!
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  #162  
Unread 02-02-2016, 06:33 AM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Mercury separates, sorts, divides, contests. It destabilises things, or tries to.

Jupiter tries to pull it all together and see the big picture. It tries to stabilise things.

They're both important for critical thinking, but they just don't work well in each other's houses.

As for Mercury and the double bullet - there's a wonderful mythological explanation here: https://altairastrology.wordpress.co...-of-the-world/
WOW. That really resonates with me. I am always trying to figure out one of the strongest aspects in my chart.

Jupiter/Taurus in the 12th, conjunct the ASC, exactly opposed Mercury in Scorpio.

This Mercury/Jupiter opposition has a lot to do with my urge to study astrology which began when I was only 13 or so. It was like I needed to find a way to understand the complexities of the Universe.
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  #163  
Unread 02-03-2016, 04:56 AM
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Smile Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Mercury keeps it moving. Pisces can use that! So can its back-to-back ally, Virgo. Mercury tells Virgo "that's perfect enough, at least for now". Jupiter was the Sky god, armed with the lightening Trident of power. So he controlled the entire atmosphere of Earth. Mercury was his messenger, controlling the Wind, which keeps the atmosphere kinetic.

"Make Your Mind a Flute"

Make your mind a flute
In it you will find wooden plugs
When these are uncorked, wind will blow through your head
Making many notes.
[Chameleon Gubudu]

Mind-blowing--what a concept!

Last edited by david starling; 02-07-2016 at 03:08 AM.
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  #164  
Unread 03-31-2016, 07:10 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Mercury keeps it moving.
Pisces can use that!

Pisces is a mutable sign and therefore already changeable
so does not require Mercury to "keep it moving"

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

So can its back-to-back ally, Virgo. Mercury tells Virgo "that's perfect enough, at least for now". Jupiter was the Sky god, armed with the lightening Trident of power. So he controlled the entire atmosphere of Earth. Mercury was his messenger, controlling the Wind, which keeps the atmosphere kinetic.

"Make Your Mind a Flute"

Make your mind a flute
In it you will find wooden plugs
When these are uncorked, wind will blow through your head
Making many notes.
[Chameleon Gubudu]

Mind-blowing--what a concept!
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  #165  
Unread 03-31-2016, 07:53 PM
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Smile Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Pisces changes slooowly. In today's fast-paced world, a little pick-me-up comes in handy. Kind of like a strong cup of coffee to to get you going! But still, better late than never.
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  #166  
Unread 03-31-2016, 08:17 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Ask me anything.

I have a Pisces stellium, NN, Sun, Merc, Moon in the 6/7h.
And to give it all it kick, born on the same day as a solar eclipse.
Thank goodness I have a Virgo Asc.
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  #167  
Unread 03-31-2016, 08:29 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post

Ask me anything.

I have a Pisces stellium, NN, Sun, Merc, Moon in the 6/7h.
And to give it all it kick,
born on the same day as a solar eclipse.
Thank goodness I have a Virgo Asc.

Pisces stellium highlights natal Jupiter... so which sign is your natal Jupiter
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  #168  
Unread 03-31-2016, 08:31 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Pisces changes slooowly.
In today's fast-paced world, a little pick-me-up comes in handy.
Kind of like a strong cup of coffee to to get you going!
But still, better late than never.

Pisces is a mutable sign requiring scant encouragement to change
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  #169  
Unread 03-31-2016, 09:16 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Pisces stellium highlights natal Jupiter... so which sign is your natal Jupiter
I tend to think of myself as Neptunian, but yes of course I should consider
Jup which is 8 h Aries.
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  #170  
Unread 03-31-2016, 09:50 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

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Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post

I tend to think of myself as Neptunian,
but yes of course I should consider
Jup which is 8 h Aries.

Aries Jupiter brings us to Aries ruler Mars & a solar eclipse that ticks all those boxes
could mean that your natal Mars is in domicile in traditional Scorpio

and natal Sun is near enough 5 degrees Pisces
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Unread 03-31-2016, 10:45 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Aries Jupiter brings us to Aries ruler Mars & a solar eclipse that ticks all those boxes
could mean that your natal Mars is in domicile in traditional Scorpio

and natal Sun is near enough 5 degrees Pisces
My Mars in is Scorpio and Sun is 6 degrees Pisces.
3h Mars is inconjunct Jup in Aries, which has been known to get me in trouble.
I think you are giving me an answer on why.
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  #172  
Unread 03-31-2016, 11:34 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post

My Mars in is Scorpio and Sun is 6 degrees Pisces.
3h Mars is inconjunct Jup in Aries,
which has been known to get me in trouble.
I think you are giving me an answer on why.

Methinks your natal Aquarius Mercurys ruler
is an Exalted Saturn in 2nd Whole Sign house
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  #173  
Unread 04-01-2016, 04:51 AM
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Smile Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Pisces is a mutable sign requiring scant encouragement to change
Actually, I said Merc. keeps it MOVING, not "changing". But, of all the Mutables, Pisces is slowest to change-over to anything new.
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  #174  
Unread 04-01-2016, 12:22 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Actually, I said Merc. keeps it MOVING, not "changing".
But, of all the Mutables, Pisces is slowest to change-over to anything new.

Nevertheless Mutables signs ARE changeable
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Unread 04-01-2016, 02:28 PM
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Re: Rethinking Mercury in Pisces..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Methinks your natal Aquarius Mercurys ruler
is an Exalted Saturn in 2nd Whole Sign house
Geesh, I guess this is why my Saturn is too big for his britches and get me into trouble.

On a karmic level this is kind of neat, Saturn is Lord of Karma, and a master teacher. And moving it to the 2h means it is a karmic gift in this life. I am glad he has chosen a comfortable place in my chart.
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