How planets can bring name, fame and glory to you.

Wames

Well-known member
Hi RayAustin.

You got me really curious about tenth house planets and the famous artists who inspired and influenced me over the years. So I started looking at some of their charts. There were many without tenth house planets. Cyd Charisse, Fred Astaire, and Alvin Ailey do not have tenth house planets. Both Bob Fosse and Liza Minnelli do not have planets there either. Gene Kelly, Liza Minnelli, and her mother Judy Garland all have 12th house suns. Michael Bennett ("A Chorus Line" ) has a 12th house sun too, no planets in the 10th. Interesting. Thank you for your posts.
 
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Skillcoil

Well-known member
I've noticed node conjunctions in some charts of famous people, it could be something to consider. For name, fame and glory, would the vertex be involved also?
 
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RayAustin

Well-known member
Hi RayAustin.

You got me really curious about tenth house planets and the famous artists who inspired and influenced me over the years. So I started looking at some of their charts. There were many without tenth house planets. Cyd Charisse, Fred Astaire, and Alvin Ailey do not have tenth house planets. Both Bob Fosse and Liza Minnelli do not have planets there either. Gene Kelly, Liza Minnelli, and her mother Judy Garland all have 12th house suns. Michael Bennett ("A Chorus Line" ) has a 12th house sun too, no planets in the 10th. Interesting. Thank you for your posts.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I used to feel awful about my 12th house sun; feeling that no person who dreamed to be well-known should realistically entertain the idea with a 12th house sun, especially if said Sun ruled the tenth house. After a lot of research and studying famous people charts, 12th house suns seemed to appear significantly; maybe even being a signature (which I can address later) Not only that, I found no reliable method for determining "fame" other than using the hellenistic method (which could be more ancient than that) written of by Vettius Valens.
 
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Wames

Well-known member
It's interesting that your prog. m/c would have moved to conjunct your natal venus around the time that your acting career took off, also the mars/jupiter opposition which would allow you to experience the "bitchy" side of show business, it's a shame that these two planets are connected to Saturn on your m/c, as I believe that this would be the main casaul factor restricting your career, along with that moon/uranus conjunction also connecting to saturn!

Hello Caprising. I had my first big break when I was 21 years old. I put myself through a lot of hell, sweat, and tears at the time. I went to China for my first dance contract and before I even flew out, there was a chinese govnt official who reviewed the tape of our show and wanted me fired. He thought I was fat. Thank god the producer and choreographer believed in me (although I still got a weight notice and had to lose 10 pounds) and didn't fire me. A few years later I became luckier thanks to the support of a few friends and I landed a couple of good jobs without so much of the drama that I encountered previously.

You are right though. I love the arts but I hated the business with all its background noise. It's a world that I do not regret but I was too sensitive to persevere. I went from taking classes 3 hours a day to stopping cold turkey out of protest at one point. I was thinking maybe if my mars was in aries I might have been more fruitful. I had a few windows of opportunity I never jumped on. Thanks for pointing me towards my Saturn.
 
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Wames

Well-known member
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I used to feel awful about my 12th house sun; feeling that no person who dreamed to be well-known should realistically entertain the idea with a 12th house sun, especially if said Sun ruled the tenth house. After a lot of research and studying famous people charts, 12th house suns seemed to appear significantly; maybe even being a signature (which I can address later) Not only that, I found no reliable method for determining "fame" other than using the hellenistic method (which could be more ancient than that) written of by Vettius Valens.

Oh, you're welcome! I would love to read any work you have on it. When I saw the mother/daughter power diva duo (Liza and Judy) with the 12th house suns and then the others too, I was getting excited.

I will have to look up Vettius Valens. More education, thanks. By the way, I looked up the actress Liv Tyler. She also has a 12th house sun.
 

Oren

Well-known member
No. The 10th is most correctly associated with nobility, honor, the native's reputation. Not necessarily fame. There are famous people with bad reputations in which we would expect the tenth house to be afflicted. Lots of famous world leaders have Sun in 12th house, Madonna has Sun in the 12th house and no planets in 10th house. Only using the lot of fortune method did it clearly describe and indicate her fame. Your theory is problematic and one dimensional; I don't see why you are so adamant about a one dimensional conclusion.

The first house lord in the first has long been associated with creating fame, more importantly: the 9th house has been described as THE house of fame by the astrologer Raphael, possibly due to its connections to world-wide influence. Uranus, aka Herschel is associated with fame. So is the 11th house, as this has connection to having numerous supporters (aka fans) which is a requirement for many famous people, 'lest they be infamous.

The most reliable method I've seen is using the lot of fortune.

If this is true, I'm kinda relieved because I have no 10th house planets either , but apparently, my chart has a lot of indicators for acting or some sort of performing arts (sun and venus in taurus in 5th house, libra MC for instance), but can someone help me better understand my part of fortune in leo? in terms of what that indicates with regards to fame?

Besides the things I just mentioned, I don't have much of what's been mentioned in most of the threads regarding fame...so I'm wondering, if I were to ever go into the arts, would fame not be something that will be part of that?
 

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RayAustin

Well-known member
The reason I am not answering opinions about personal charts is I don't take this technique lightly to say, "oh yeahhh, you'll totally be famous!" to anyone who asks about it. I think you should learn how to read it yourself. I will say Oren, your lord of fortune ruler is strongly placed.
 
E

eternalautumn

I think you would definitely have to want and work for fame; just having the chart indications doesn't mean one day you'll randomly become famous...
 

RayAustin

Well-known member
I think you would definitely have to want and work for fame; just having the chart indications doesn't mean one day you'll randomly become famous...

Yeah, but reading The Anthology by Vettius Valens, that is not how the ancients saw it, it was very final. For example, never was there any mention that the indicators were indicators of potential; if you read the way they spoke, they spoke in a definite manner. I don't see why this should change in our time today if we are to abide by their rules.

Another way of saying it .. the method shows rank, whether they worked for it or not; whether someone does or needed to does not matter, the chart would show where they ended up anyway.
 
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RayAustin

Well-known member
I think you would definitely have to want and work for fame; just having the chart indications doesn't mean one day you'll randomly become famous...

Mostly I was describing what seemed to be the ancients' viewpoint above, but in a way I agree as well, which is one reason I'm not giving my personal opinions about people's charts.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
well I have pluto in the 10th, but the ruler of the 10th is Venus in the 12th... *sigh* So pluto is well aspected, sextiles the sun in the first as well, but with the 10th house being ruled by a 12th house planet, I would imagine fame is an impossibility...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5582/astro2gw05deanna2136317.gif

truthfully tho, I'd rather have money than fame...
Well, you could do well with film work but generally the 12th is the private house and doesnt involve public acclaim or image but if there are aspects to the 10th from there, it would be possible to have a public life.
Pluto in the 10th is indicative of mass media and appeal and someone who is a well known psychoanalyst for instance could have it or someone with great magnetism and sex appeal. It all depends on looking at the whole chart.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
I think you would definitely have to want and work for fame; just having the chart indications doesn't mean one day you'll randomly become famous...
I agree and having planets in the 10th does not always mean fame as it rules more than our career, after all.

However with no planets in the 10th, fame is highly unlikely.
 

Oren

Well-known member
I agree and having planets in the 10th does not always mean fame as it rules more than our career, after all.

However with no planets in the 10th, fame is highly unlikely.

regarding the 10th house and fame, I recently came accross this interview:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/astrology/fame.html

Also, I may not remember correctly, but I don't think the moon was mentioned too much in these fame threads, yet this article makes a pretty good argument for lunar aspects:
http://moonvalleyastrologer.com/fame.htm

Would like to hear anyone's thoughts on the articles :smile:
 

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Oren

Well-known member
The reason I am not answering opinions about personal charts is I don't take this technique lightly to say, "oh yeahhh, you'll totally be famous!" to anyone who asks about it. I think you should learn how to read it yourself. I will say Oren, your lord of fortune ruler is strongly placed.

well, at least it sounds good, lol
 

RayAustin

Well-known member
Also, I may not remember correctly, but I don't think the moon was mentioned too much in these fame threads, yet this article makes a pretty good argument for lunar aspects:
http://moonvalleyastrologer.com/fame.htm

Would like to hear anyone's thoughts on the articles :smile:

Yes, the Moon has long been recognized to be connected with fame, as you see in the quote in my signature from the (pretty sure) 16th century astrologer Cardanus. It seems the Moon is connected to likability in a subconscious sense by the masses.
 

RayAustin

Well-known member
#1 Amelia Earhart .. No planets in 10th house.. Lot of fortune (also is lot of exaltation) is in an Air sign in 2nd house, has Moon and Venus on it which is very fortunate for being known and loved; two trigon lords angular in natal, one angular from lot of fortune ascendant.

#2 Whitney Houston .. No planets in 10th house.. Eminent chart with hellenistic methods. Lord of fortune is conjunct Jupiter which suggests high fortune and rank WHILE being ten signs from fortune. Very good!

#3 Lady Gaga .. even with proposed Sag/Scorpio risings no planets in tenth house. Very eminent chart with hellenistic methods supporting an extremely well-known figure. I'm sure I explained why before.

#4 Billie Holiday .. No tenth house planets. How ever, has a very eminent chart with the Sun (natural ruler of fame) exalted on the lot of fortune. Also, Sun is the exaltation lord of fortune, so this also counts as "lord of fortune on fortune". The first trigon lord culminates from the lot of fortune, but also lies in the 12th house natally; may be well known (or heading to) in this period but also suffer from self-destruction. Lord of fortune Mars (arguing fortune in life derived from men) is with Venus in Pisces (exalted) and Jupiter in Pisces (domicile), extremely fortunate! As far as being well-known goes.


An interesting note that these people's planets were afflicted, which is what you'd expect, since many of them were famous but suffered in their personal (sometimes also public) lives.
 
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Oren

Well-known member
Yes, the Moon has long been recognized to be connected with fame, as you see in the quote in my signature from the (pretty sure) 16th century astrologer Cardanus. It seems the Moon is connected to likability in a subconscious sense by the masses.

wow, I seriously need to read better, lol

I'm just glad to know there's hope for us empty 10th house people after all:lol:
 

Skillcoil

Well-known member
Although likeability is usually associated with venus, I agree the moon is an important part of it. What are the indicators that show why some famous people have sudden reversal of public opinion of them? Also there are celebrities who aren't well liked by many or theres combination of like/dislike.
 

RayAustin

Well-known member
What are the indicators that show why some famous people have sudden reversal of public opinion of them? Also there are celebrities who aren't well liked by many or theres combination of like/dislike.

Hi Skill, I spent quite a bit writing a response on my thoughts but didn't get to finish it, hopefully a partial reply is satiating:

The astrologer Robert Cross Smith (19th century astrologer) in A Manual of Astrology in his section "The Fortune of Rank" mentions that the superiors Saturn, Uranus, Mars, Jupiter and the Sun angular confers to public notoriety. However, he also mentions that if out of these planets Saturn, Uranus and Mars lie in the tenth to generally denote some sad catastrophe to finish the scheme of their nativity (155). So I looked at some assassinated people.

For example, Kennedy had Saturn in the tenth. Lincoln had Saturn in the tenth. Mussolini had Uranus in the tenth, Gandhi had Uranus conjunct the midheaven. Again however, this is subjective--how bad depends on how much the planets are afflicted themselves and afflicting the others, especially the luminaries; he mentions—and also mentions that if the planets are assissted then the placement is also not as bad. One should not assume (as they seem to here) this is mentioned as a guaranteed signature of ill-fate.

Another thing that may represent rise and fall in the nativity is if the tenth lord is in the twelfth since the twelfth house is declining and one of the most unfortunate houses; if the tenth lord is afflicted then they may most likely face disgrace or an unfortunate end to the career/reputation.

  • Kennedy
    Kennedy had Saturn afflicted in Cancer in the tenth house, conjunct the midheaven in sextile with the Moon from the twelfth house. The lord of the 10th is in the 12th house. I don't see that this sextile is of much help to appease Saturn, as Saturn's dispositor Moon is weak and afflicted being in the 12th house in Virgo -- these two planets are also said to be "enemies"; of course there's reception here but I don't see it doing too much since the Moon is malignant from being in the twelfth house. Saturn is also sextiled by a Mercury/Jupiter/Mars conjunction in the eighth house; not a particularly fortunate connection with the agitated Mars (public enemies ruler). Mercury rules the 12th house of secret enemies, it seems like he had many enemies that wished his ruin.

  • Gandhi
    Gandhi had Uranus conjunct the midheaven in Cancer, aspected by Mars in Scorpio by trine by 3°, and he was shot. Mars also opposes Pluto rx by only 0°44' in the eighth house, which makes this trine to Uranus very malignant; indicating a sudden violent death by piercing.
    Jupiter is conjunct Pluto. It seems like Jupiter being involved may indicate a public death (as above, Kennedy also had Jupiter involved, and was killed in public).

[ to be continued: will touch on Lincoln, Mussolini .. and also people that weren't assassinated but have similar placements ] ...

:smile:
R.a.
 
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