If You Are An Astrologer Then What Is Your Definition of Free Will

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Free will, in an astrological context, simple means that, like a steersman, we can navigate our way through life based our own conscious direction through our own situational probabilities. To think that our lives are absolutely dictated by the stellar pattern in the heavens is absolute nonsense, and anyone who believes otherwise has their eyes open wide-shut. The evidence is abundant, and to carry on in the face of that evidence moves astrology into the category of religion, where it is supported by blind faith
Interestingly, not everyone would agree with your opinion, there are as many variations on the idea of 'free will' as there are past. present and future inhabitants of this planet :smile:
There is not greater travesty of mind than to myopically focus on only that which supports one's belief system and, with blinders, stumble through life with tunnel vision.
Quite
Empower yourself with truth. It is the best way to live.
Good idea
Reality is experienced on many levels. This statement prevaricates from the real issue at hand, and though you may personally perceive reality differently from your neighbor, there is, unfortunately (depending on how you view it) a general consensus of what "is." It "is," for the most part, immutable.

When a person argues with words like "its all relative" or "that your opinion," it means that there is not much substance to the argument, "in my opinion." :wink:
Well it's not unusual that one would support one's own opinion :smile:
 

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
The whaling ship Essex was rammed by a bull sperm whale in the mid-Pacific around 1820.

The crew made it to an unihabited (and scarcely habitable) island in their small boats. A few crew opted to stay on the island, but most chose to attempt to make the coast of Peru, several thousand miles to the east. I believe 4 made it to Peru, barely alive. The rest died along the way, and some were eaten by their shipmates.

Fate or destiny decreed that the whale would ram and sink the ship.

Once in the predicament, free will decided whether to stay on the island or sail for Peru. Free will determined whether or not a shipmate was eaten. If you didn't eat him you would die. The choice was yours.

That's pretty much the long and short of free will and predestination.

Wow. You have had some adventures, graybeard. That would certainly put some grey hairs on my chin. But to what you are saying, I can agree with this.

I did not choose (as far as I know) to be born male...or American...or my mother and father, certainly not my knothead brother...whether to go to school or not...

As an astrologer, it is clear to me that I did not choose my own character and inherent traits, or the general course of my destiny (71 years later, I can see my life as it was and is written in the stars). All these things are the whale.

There is some evidence out there, scientific evidence, that a prenatal baby actually does choose the time of its birth, usually mimicking the astrological patterns of the parents' to some extent. Medically induced births destroy this pattern, so there might be some evidence that, in a sense, a choice is made. Granted it is an unconscious decision (or unmemorable), so it could be categorized as a "reflex," I suppose. But given that the birth pattern can be disrupted by other forces being exerted on the will of the baby, you could argue that as a prenatal a choice was made . . . .

It is only within the confines of my destiny that I exercise free will. My choices may affect the form my destiny takes, but not its general nature. That is determined by a Power greater than I. And even those choices, my free will, may be predetermined, given my inherent tendencies and traits which incline me toward certain types of choices and not others.

Knowing what I do about astrology, I can loosely agree with this. Personally, I believe this is a possibility. I see everything as a sequence of probabilities and, perhaps, the stars show a force inclining a person to choose one probability over another. But I cannot deny a high level of free will. My study of time twins has provided additional evidence that proves this for me beyond a reasonable doubt. There are many others out there who have done similar studies.
 
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Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Interestingly, not everyone would agree with your opinion, there are as many variations on the idea of 'free will' as there are past. present and future inhabitants of this planet :smile:

Quite

Good idea

Well it's not unusual that one would support one's own opinion :smile:

Is that all you got? Sarcasm and "that's your opinion"? :lol: That's all you ever have.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Is that all you got? Sarcasm and "that's your opinion"? :lol: That's all you ever have.
6a010535ce1cf6970c017616fc22c4970c-800wi
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Interesting article on the neurology of "free will."

http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will

Acting at one's own discretion implies a conscious decision.

The article highlights that the brain unconsciously prepares the body to act before consciousness blooms.
QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE :smile:

'….Daniel Dennett
recently tried to rescue free will from the dustbin of history,
saying there's still room for human agency
while acknowledging that free will in the classic sense is largely impossible
,
yet has attempted to show free will can exist,
albeit under certain circumstances


Sam Harris compelling case is we don't have free will, but it's not a problem and belief in free will needs to end: conscious thoughts, intentions/efforts are preceded by deep causes the person is unaware of - genes, childhood experience - for which no one, however evil, can be held responsible. Our ignorance of both sets of facts gives rise to moral illusions....'


'...Harris doesn't believe that the illusoriness of free will is an "ugly truth,"
nor something that will forever be relegated to philosophical abstractions.
This is science he writes:
"Recognizing that my conscious mind is always downstream from the underlying causes of my thoughts, intentions, and actions
does not change the fact that thoughts, intentions, and actions of all kinds are necessary for living a happy life
— or an unhappy one, for that matter".


But Dennett correctly points out, this issue is not open-and-shut.
Advocates of "free will as illusion" shall have to improve their experimental methods,
while addressing work of philosophers, evolutionary biologists - even quantum physicists....'




'…..Why, for example, did humans evolve consciousness instead of zombie-brains if consciousness is not a channel for exerting free will?
And given the nature of quantum indeterminacy, what does it mean to live in a universe of fuzzy probability?
There's clearly lots of work that still needs to be done.
Yet many worry that it is necessary to believe in free will, especially in the process of raising children....'
 

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Look, the reason I have stated what I said is not to be antagonistic to "you," although I was a smidge. What I am antagonistic toward is the idea that the stars dictate a persons destiny to such a level that it disempowers people. Injury can ensue when a person believes wholeheartedly in something. The psychosomatic effect can be enormous. There are many studies of people who have suffered greatly, nearly dying, simply because of their state of mind. I'm sure you can think of some examples.

The second reason is that astrology, despite what some think, is still a work in progress. It is my opinion that astrology has not really been defined adequately, as to what it can foretell or illuminate and what it cannot. There are two facets of astrology: the actual correlational/causational effect of the stars and the astrologer interpreting. They are not the same thing. Because symbolic associations are being used, intuition is heavily involved, which is what makes astrology so difficult to test and prove in modern science. It just does not lend itself to that.

And graybeard made a wonderful point when he mentioned ideas not taking very much space. Modern science has divorced itself, for the most part, from the human mind. None as of yet understand how the mind truly operates, or what factor it plays in our operative existence. Unfortunately, astrology relies heavily on the mind, and that variable, its interplay, in such practices as astrology (and music and art, etc.) is not accounted for.

What I hope is that astrology will gain some level of respect so that it will get the attention it deserves. Astrology as a science can be studied further and demarcated from the art of the astrologer, just as the principles of music can be delineated from the art of the composer. But if we continue to treat it like a religion, this will never happen.
 
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Ebenia

Well-known member
I think that the idea of free will is very interesting and I have been pondering it for a while.

For a while in my life, I totally believed in free will and I was into Law of Attraction and attracting everything I want and so on. Now I have reliased that the concept of free will is much more compilcated than what we might think.

Actually nowadays I tend to think that we don't have a free will. Why? Because we are ruled by the thoughtforms and feelings that we have. Because we are specific type of people with specific wishes, goals, temperament and problems and challenges in our psyche, we are not really free. Even though we think that we choose things, like what I want to eat and what I shall do today, I am not really choosing them, but just acting the way this construct that I think that I am, feels and thinks. If someone knows my "construct" really well, they are able to predict fairly accurately what I shall do and not do, because I am bound to act the way I think and what I believe in. I also believe that there is a natural continum of evolution in every contruct (every person) so that it is also predestined in a sense that we will evolve and what we will then do in the place where we have evolved. But I cannot ever act "outside of me". So therefor I am not really able to make completely free choices.

The only way we can be free, is by just being happy and being as conscious as we can be and realise that we are indeed more than these charts and these circumstances that we are in. I am more than this person that I am in this lifetime and still I am to one extend bound by this personality and viewpoint that I have.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Two of many opinions :smile:


QUOTE:

"…...Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world......" Einstein's opinion

QUOTE:

"…..All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements…are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of the mind...." Buddha's opinion
 

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Two of many opinions :smile:


QUOTE:

"…...Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world......" Einstein's opinion

QUOTE:

"…..All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements…are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of the mind...." Buddha's opinion

Interestingly, by supporting the fact that people have opinions, which was not being disputed, you have also, through the "opinions" of those you quoted, supported free will.

"…...Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world......" Einstein's opinion

That is "free" as opposed to "determined." Yes. That's right. If what he's saying sounds very much like free will, that's because that's what he is saying. He is saying that we can change our reality by the use of mind.

…..All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements…are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of the mind...." Buddha's opinion

Let me paraphrase: any idea that life is merely one ordered, sequential series of events is an illusion. Thus, if you change your mind, you change your reality. Sound like free will, too? That's because it is.

Now if that is not an example of cognitive dissonance on your part, then I don't know what is. :wink:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Interestingly, by supporting the fact that people have opinions, which was not being disputed, you have also, through the "opinions" of those you quoted, supported free will.

"…...Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world......" Einstein's opinion

That is "free" as opposed to "determined." Yes. That's right. If what he's saying sounds very much like free will, that's because that's what he is saying. He is saying that we can change our reality by the use of mind.

…..All such notions as causation, succession, atoms, primary elements…are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of the mind...." Buddha's opinion

Let me paraphrase: any idea that life is merely one ordered, sequential series of events is an illusion. Thus, if you change your mind, you change your reality. Sound like free will, too? That's because it is.

Now if that is not an example of cognitive dissonance on your part, then I don't know what is
. :wink:
On the contrary

IF, according to your analysis
which is not indisputable

These two quoted opinions
Einstein's opinion
Buddha's opinion

are 'cognitively dissonant'

then that's your opinion of their opinions

You are entitled to state your opinion

If I choose to post quotes relevant to the topic of 'defining free will' THEN
that DOES NOT mean those are 'my opinions'

A fact I clarified by clearly stating:
'Einstein's opinion, Buddha's opinion' :smile:

Clearly you are unaware
that it is not unusual
to highlight two apparently conflicting opinions
by the simple means of posting both opinions
in order to compare and contrast those opinions
without necessarily agreeing/disagreeing with either opinion

 
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Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Clearly you are unaware
that it is not unusual
to highlight two apparently conflicting opinions
by the simple means of posting both opinions
in order to compare and contrast those opinions
without necessarily agreeing/disagreeing with either opinion


If you are merely stating every opinion there is, then I misunderstood. Given statements made in other posts, I assumed you were standing on one side of the line and not walking the middle ground, presenting a case. If that is what you are doing, then my pervious post is inappropriate.

On another note, in regard to free will, those opinions are not in conflict.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
If you are merely stating every opinion there is, then I misunderstood. Given statements made in other posts, I assumed you were standing on one side of the line and not walking the middle ground, presenting a case. If that is what you are doing, then my pervious post is inappropriate.
Einstein's opinion is = 'everything is relative'
Buddha's opinion is = 'everything is interdependent'

As I mentioned earlier, some opine that
'reality' is 'observer created'
- hence 'relative' aka 'interdependent'

ergo some could argue that Buddha and Einstein are far from being 'cognitively dissonant'

in fact many do argue that Science is in agreement with Buddhist principles

Paul asks:
......explain why without free will the only other alternative is, by necessity, that EVERYTHING is pre-destined - for example why not chance?

Also if you could break down the boundaries, if any, you recognise with regards Free Will? Do some people have more Free Will than others?

Some questions, I don't expect you to answer them all, but your answers would help me form my own responses to your question. Once again we are trying to reduce complex philosophical problems into a binary solution - I have already addressed on the other thread how futile I think such endeavours often are.

I was born in Ireland and both of my parents are alive today. Someone else was born in a slum and both their parents are dead. Are any of these things the result of Free Will of the individual/child? If not why are they dead? Why didn't the child will for them to be otherwise?

Consider a possibility that all things are scripted to befall you, there is the determinism you spoke of. However you have the choice in altering your ATTITUDE about those matters - you can accept and work with them, embracing them as you do so, or you can fight in vain against it. Is this free will? What is it instead if it is not free will? Is there a difference between determinism and fatalism?

Is there any way that you recognise where determinism and free will are compatible?

A brick falls on your head - you have free will, why did the brick fall on your head when you have free will? Did you, in some way, cause that brick to fall on your head due to a lack of conscious exercise of your mental capabilities for example? Was it possible to determine that you would have a brick fall on your head that day?

Say you have the free will to make a choice, but you can only choose two options - is this truly free if you really want to take a third option?

Has there ever been a time when you are fully committed to a course of action, apply your free will as completely as you can to achieve that course of action, only for some external situation or internal failing prevent you from succeeding in that course of action? How do you account for this?

Just interesting to compare and contrast
:smile:
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Astrology does portray your destiny.

I'm over 70 years old. I've lived my life. A look at my chart, a look at my character, a look at the path my life has followed....it's all there in the stars.

Look at everything else in the universe...galaxies, stars, oceans, winds, fleas, bananas, ...everything, and you see nothing that has free will. But humans do, or so they believe.
Did you call yourself into existence? Is it your free will that will bring you to death?

I came to the realization that I really have no free will some 25 years ago. It did not destroy me...on the contrary, that realization empowered me and liberated me. And I continue to live every moment in sovereign exercise of my free will.

We can't know. We are immersed in paradox. The only thing we can do is figure out how to live, and that comes from within us.

We are mortals. We die. That simple fact answers the question.

OK. Everyone who wants to die, raise your hand.... Hmm, not very many hands.
And the rest of you? Fate has declared you will die. That's that. Show me the power of your will in the face of death.

Astrology shows us our fate. It isn't really astrology; it's the universe. Astrology is only our looking glass, not the reality itself. But anyone who has reached a certain level of skill in astrology knows that "it works." Fate is implicit in that.

And always there is the nagging question: Are my choices and decisions (the expression of free will) determined by a prior cause (i.e., the very nature of my being)?

I have a partile quincunx of moon to uranus in my chart. I will translate that aspect as "freedom at any price" here. This aspect therefore influences my political views, my home and family life, my financial and social status, my coterie of friends, my sexual adventures, my employment and the kinds of pastimes I pursue....in short, it reaches out into every aspect of my life. It inclines me to make certain choices to the exclusion of others. Every aspect in the horoscope (that is, every aspect of my personality) has a similar effect. Therefore, I am pre-determined by "my stars" toward a certain range of choices, choices which you would not make because the structure of your star-pattern (your personality) is different. This gives the impression of free will, when in fact it may not be so.

The ambitious and adventurous man might risk all he has on the turn of a card, while the timid and cautious man will avoid the chance of loss. These two tendencies will be consistent throughout life and color every choice made by the men. At the very least, there is the possibility that these traits of character run so deep that they impose on our free will what amounts to pre-destination...i.e., there is no free will. It is also possible that true free will does exist. We can't know.

In either case, we must act as if we do in fact possess free will. We cannot do otherwise. Life compels us to make choices constantly.

Here is what the Bhagavad Gita has to say: "Because thou art in the bondage of Karma, of the forces of thine own past life; and that which thou, in thy delusion, with a good will dost not want to do, unwillingly thou shalt have to do." B.G. 18:60
 

poyi

Premium Member
I like to think life containing many essential credits and subjects you must learn as following the programme of your bachelor degree. You must attend all or at least 80% of the tutorials and lectures for passing the attendances handing in the assignments for the topics set up for you. During the course you will meet people some have greater authority, or you have over them, to be guided or guide others or if you would abuse your power/resources/connections? some people maybe same level as you, some may help you, some may use you and vice versa. How do you pass your exams and assignments it is up to you but we must all fulfill all the criteria that are set for that specific unit/degree. Well, if you didn't do the right thing then come back to repeat again untill you get it right and graduate.

I like to see that we have limited free will under the predestined fate. This is how the game supposed to be. The little free will you have actual is what the Old Man uses to judge if you passed your credits or not. Is a complete blind game. Nobody is absolutely sure if the Old Man existed either.
 

Therese

Well-known member
Some philosophers, including Heidegger, for example, talk about the authenticity of life in terms of becoming "transparent" to what is "constitutive for existence" and the inauthenticity of life in terms of becoming obscure, covering up or turning away from what is. I personally think that this is a matter in which we can excercise our free will. Whether we live our lives in an authentic or inauthentic way. Whether we want to become more and more transparent so that we can experience what is real (who we actually are and what is real in our own lives), or we want to become more and more obscure and insist on how the world and ourselves in it should be... I'm not sure how important the rest is... whether I was predestined to meet my husband and marry him or I married him out of my free will does not seem as important to me as whether in this marriage I am authentic or inauthentic as a person.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
It's interesting that the Bhagavad Gita and the Bible speak to us as though we have free will, and yet suggest that this is not so. The Bible says that, of one lump of clay the potter makes one vessel for honor and another for dishonor.

But then, sitting at the poker table, it is not the cards you are dealt that determine whether you win or lose, but how you play them.

Thanks for the Heidegger.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Only when we are being put into the truly out of control situation when everything is taken away from you and when you finally came to the enlightenment knowing that you are absolutely powerless, then the true quality of the soul will show.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
But then, sitting at the poker table, it is not the cards you are dealt that determine whether you win or lose, but how you play them.
Not necessarily.... depends on whether the cards are dealt by a cardsharp or not :smile:

'….A card sharp (also spelled cardsharp, card shark or cardshark) is a person who uses skill and deception to win at poker or other card games. Sharp and shark spellings have varied over time and by region....'



'…..The label is not always intended as pejorative, and can describe practitioners of card tricks for entertainment purposes. In general usage, principally in American English and more commonly with the "shark" spelling, the term has also taken on the meaning of "expert card gambler who takes advantage of less-skilled players", without implication of actual cheating at cards, in much the same way that "pool shark" or "pool hustler" can (especially when used by non-players) be intended to mean "skilled player" rather than "swindler".....'


'…..A card sharp/shark (by either of the gambling-related definitions) may be a "rounder" who travels, seeking out high-stakes games in which to gamble.....'

Card sharp definition - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_sharp
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Didn't see the thing on "no soul."

Ideas do not have mass nor take up space. Are ideas then "not real"?

The idea I am putting forward here and now, transmuted into words (symbols) so that the idea can be shared with others, is eliciting emotional and intellectual responses in those who read them. Is this not real?

If you use the nodes of the Moon in your practice of astrology ... Cease and Desist. They have no mass, do not occupy space, and are not real. Ditto the Arabic parts, and other such ghostly creatures.

And by the way, gravity has no mass and takes up no space. The Earth is held in its orbit by a silken thread.

Perhaps there is more to this universe than things that can be seen, weighed, and put in their place.
**************************************************************

Speaking of symbols, what distinguishes Man -- more than anything else -- from all other known forms of life, is the gift of Symbolic Thought (abstract thought). Mathematics is purely symbolical. Language is purely symbolical. Astrology is also purely symbolical (uh-oh, here comes an argument).

'......One who sees how cause and effect


Are produced and destroyed


Does not regard the world


As really existent or really non-existent......' :smile:

....NAGARJUNA
 

poyi

Premium Member

'......One who sees how cause and effect


Are produced and destroyed


Does not regard the world


As really existent or really non-existent......' :smile:

....NAGARJUNA

Is all just a play or game. We got our script and play our characters on stage.

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

1 Corinthians 4:9
 
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