Pisces Guilt

Witchyone · Jun 6, 2018

I am a guilt-ridden creature. I always have been. I have Pisces moon, which is involved in a lot of my chart, including a Yod, and Jupiter in Pisces. I am also Pisces dominant according to most dominance calculators (one said I'm Taurus dominant.) I have Venus and Chiron in the 12th house. Neptune is in the 7th, which I believe is a rose-colored glasses placement.

Recently I became so guilt-ridden over something bad I did (bad, but not criminal, not even _that_ bad relative to things I've forgiven other people for), I collapsed into a deep depression. I became anxious and paranoid. I think I actually broke with reality for a few months because of this intense guilt. It was like I felt I deserved to be punished (suffering and humiliation weren't enough, I suppose), so my subconscious invented scenarios where I would be punished (exposed for my sins, raped, murdered...extreme, extreme stuff.)

I confessed what I did. The person who had the most reason to be upset by what I did has forgiven me. But still, I can't go back to the way I was before. I feel stifled, tainted, unworthy. What do you think? Is this Karma? Did I do something horrible in a past life and not get punished for it? Is this normal? Do other Pisces-dominants feel this extreme sense of responsibility to do the right thing, always, and to expect punishment if you don't?

mahaira · Jun 6, 2018

I'm sorry Witchyone to hear about your suffering. I've just posted about Neptunian traits, including extreme empathy. Feeling of guilt is a manifestation of the lower frequency of Pisces/12th house/Neptune.

However, I'd like to see your chart because from what you said there are a lot of Plutonian influences (like obsessive thinking, images of violence...), Saturnian images of punishment- getting what one deserves...

Neptune in the seventh speaks of idealization (all the way to deception) of the romantic partner and the very idea of relationships/marriages. This ideal can never exist in the real world. It can manifest itself as finding a partner who's an artist, idealist, daydreamer or someone who cannot be pinned down, has substance abuse problem or both. It would be best to post a chart.

Witchyone · Jun 6, 2018

mahaira said:
I'm sorry Witchyone to hear about your suffering. I've just posted about Neptunian traits, including extreme empathy. Feeling of guilt is a manifestation of the lower frequency of Pisces/12th house/Neptune.

However, I'd like to see your chart because from what you said there are a lot of Plutonian influences (like obsessive thinking, images of violence...), Saturnian images of punishment- getting what one deserves...

Neptune in the seventh speaks of idealization (all the way to deception) of the romantic partner and the very idea of relationships/marriages. This ideal can never exist in the real world. It can manifest itself as finding a partner who's an artist, idealist, daydreamer or someone who cannot be pinned down, has substance abuse problem or both. It would be best to post a chart.

Fear of posting personal things online is one of a handful of new-found traits that developed after this latest self-induced trauma, so I'll probably hold off on posting my chart.

Thanks for your response and kindness. Interesting thoughts on Pluto and Saturn influences...Pluto is part of the aforementioned Yod feeding into the Pisces moon fulcrum, and my moon is in the 10th house. Neptune in the 7th is the story of my life. I am a Gemini sun, and perhaps because of that, I have the curious ability to rationalize whatever delusion I'm experiencing to the satisfaction of myself and others. Everyone thinks I'm acting reasonably. Then I "wake up" and experience emotional whiplash because I have either idealized or denigrated someone/something while deluded.

Witchyone · Jun 6, 2018

mahaira said:
I'm sorry Witchyone to hear about your suffering. I've just posted about Neptunian traits, including extreme empathy. Feeling of guilt is a manifestation of the lower frequency of Pisces/12th house/Neptune.

However, I'd like to see your chart because from what you said there are a lot of Plutonian influences (like obsessive thinking, images of violence...), Saturnian images of punishment- getting what one deserves...

Neptune in the seventh speaks of idealization (all the way to deception) of the romantic partner and the very idea of relationships/marriages. This ideal can never exist in the real world. It can manifest itself as finding a partner who's an artist, idealist, daydreamer or someone who cannot be pinned down, has substance abuse problem or both. It would be best to post a chart.

P.S. Where might I find your Pisces thread? I looked at your posts and didn't see it. Thanks.

mahaira · Jun 6, 2018

I replied to Whoam1's thread

I'm sure you'll find some interesting ideas there...

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118413

GuyWithWeirdChart · Jun 8, 2018

I have a Pisces Sun, Mars, Venus, and Saturn and a tight Moon-Neptune conjunction. I understand and have dealt with strong feelings of guilt and I probably still would today if I didn't reject them. I have had many bad things happen in my life, things that have caused heavy emotional burdens and scarrs. For the longest time I harbored a DEEP anger for those that wronged me, but now I think of it as karmic punishment. I never did anything really bad to anyone but I have done many things I'm not proud of. The fact that you even have guilt for things you've done in the past shows you have humility. I think you should stop beating yourself up over it and just try to be a good person. That's all that really matters, what's done is done, All you can really do is apologize sincerely and move forward as a better human being. Don't let the past haunt you because if you allow it to you'll never find peace, and I think you deserve peace, you may not think so because of your current state of mind, but I believe you do. Life is a learning experience, you've humbled yourself, you acknowledge you've done wrong and you need to forgive yourself for that. The world is always moving, you'd be surprised how much an appology can mean to someone, it may not seem like much to you but it does mean a lot especially if its sincere. A lot of people don't even have the humility or the heart to appologize or even admit their wrong doing. I'm glad you're not that type of person and I commend you for that. Pisces Moons are one of my favorite if not thee favorite moon sign. I recognize their abilities to empathize and their general good nature and seeing those traits in others gives me hope. In a world with so much chaos it's nice knowing there are still people with a good head on their shoulders. Don't fall into despair, you've suffered, and you will continue to suffer through out your life as life happens all around you. Just be a good person, try to keep yourself in check if you ever have the urge to wrong someone, I know it can be difficult sometimes, it's easy to be selfish and easy to not trouble yourself with the feelings or well being of others but if you can do what's right and live your life without causing others despair then you're doing things right. If you ever want to talk feel free to inbox me, take care

Witchyone · Jun 8, 2018

GuyWithWeirdChart said:
I have a Pisces Sun, Mars, Venus, and Saturn and a tight Moon-Neptune conjunction. I understand and have dealt with strong feelings of guilt and I probably still would today if I didn't reject them. I have had many bad things happen in my life, things that have caused heavy emotional burdens and scarrs. For the longest time I harbored a DEEP anger for those that wronged me, but now I think of it as karmic punishment. I never did anything really bad to anyone but I have done many things I'm not proud of. The fact that you even have guilt for things you've done in the past shows you have humility. I think you should stop beating yourself up over it and just try to be a good person. That's all that really matters, what's done is done, All you can really do is apologize sincerely and move forward as a better human being. Don't let the past haunt you because if you allow it to you'll never find peace, and I think you deserve peace, you may not think so because of your current state of mind, but I believe you do. Life is a learning experience, you've humbled yourself, you acknowledge you've done wrong and you need to forgive yourself for that. The world is always moving, you'd be surprised how much an appology can mean to someone, it may not seem like much to you but it does mean a lot especially if its sincere. A lot of people don't even have the humility or the heart to appologize or even admit their wrong doing. I'm glad you're not that type of person and I commend you for that. Pisces Moons are one of my favorite if not thee favorite moon sign. I recognize their abilities to empathize and their general good nature and seeing those traits in others gives me hope. In a world with so much chaos it's nice knowing there are still people with a good head on their shoulders. Don't fall into despair, you've suffered, and you will continue to suffer through out your life as life happens all around you. Just be a good person, try to keep yourself in check if you ever have the urge to wrong someone, I know it can be difficult sometimes, it's easy to be selfish and easy to not trouble yourself with the feelings or well being of others but if you can do what's right and live your life without causing others despair then you're doing things right. If you ever want to talk feel free to inbox me, take care

Thank you for your response. I'm fighting the urge to disagree with you about me being a good person who shouldn't feel guilty. Rationally, yeah, I see all your points. Emotionally, forgiving myself for transgressions is hard. I hold myself to higher standards of moral conduct than I hold anyone else to. And then my self-imposed martyrdom annoys me, and I feel guilty about that too. :whistling:

How do you reject feelings of guilt?

After posting about this I read some more about Chiron in the 12th. I go back and forth on how much impact I think asteroids have, but the description is familiar.

From AstroCodex
"A 12th House Chiron person should be very careful concerning his tendency to feel guilty without being wrong. Chiron in this house is urging the person to take responsibility for all the world’s troubles. The 12th house is making him a sponge that can absorb negative feelings from others, and so he might be easily feeling guilty for all the bad things that can happen around him. If you have this placement, be careful to not fall into the trap of taking all things on your shoulders. This will distort you from your real task, which is to take the responsibility for the things that you indeed need to."

...Copyright (©) https://theastrocodex.com - Read more at https://theastrocodex.com/chiron-in-the-12th-house/

Part of the problem is that there is remaining bad blood between me and another person that I really can't do anything to remedy. I have to just live with it, and that's new for me.

Whoam1 · Jun 8, 2018

I have Pluto, Mercury, and Chiron in the 12th. Neptune in the first. Also Jupiter [sun and A.C. ruler] in Pisces. The guilt is an emotional response that can make us self loathing to the point of personal obsession. Neptune teaches us to ebb and flow, that the universe is it's own balance, which supports Neptune being a higher octave if Venus. You will be trapped and helpless until you let go. Until you want to change, you will not.

Witchyone · Jun 8, 2018

Whoam1 said:
I have Pluto, Mercury, and Chiron in the 12th. Neptune in the first. Also Jupiter [sun and A.C. ruler] in Pisces. The guilt is an emotional response that can make us self loathing to the point of personal obsession. Neptune teaches us to ebb and flow, that the universe is it's own balance, which supports Neptune being a higher octave if Venus. You will be trapped and helpless until you let go. Until you want to change, you will not.

Thing is, I did change.

I said I've always been guilt-ridden. What I meant was any time I did something wrong I felt bad about it. I was raised Christian, and I took all the guilt for original sin and all that jazz straight to heart as well.

That said, I now realize I was a mostly happy person who trusted herself and the universe. I can't really say that I do anymore. I wouldn't go as far as to say I've lost all hope or all faith, but there is a definite before and after mark in my life now. Perhaps more importantly, I was a sane person. Now I have experienced paranoid delusions and anxiety so intense I couldn't leave the house. I've moved past the worst of that, but life is different now. My soul has lost its lightness.

I thought I knew ****, and now I know I didn't know ****. And I'm too old to see that as a good thing.

Witchyone · Jun 8, 2018

I've officially bored and embarrassed myself with all of this gloom and doom. So it's time to distract myself from it like a good Pisces-dominant, hedonistic airhead.

Happy Friday...

GuyWithWeirdChart · Jun 9, 2018

Witchyone said:
Thank you for your response. I'm fighting the urge to disagree with you about me being a good person who shouldn't feel guilty. Rationally, yeah, I see all your points. Emotionally, forgiving myself for transgressions is hard. I hold myself to higher standards of moral conduct than I hold anyone else to. And then my self-imposed martyrdom annoys me, and I feel guilty about that too.

How do you reject feelings of guilt?

After posting about this I read some more about Chiron in the 12th. I go back and forth on how much impact I think asteroids have, but the description is familiar.

From AstroCodex
"A 12th House Chiron person should be very careful concerning his tendency to feel guilty without being wrong. Chiron in this house is urging the person to take responsibility for all the world’s troubles. The 12th house is making him a sponge that can absorb negative feelings from others, and so he might be easily feeling guilty for all the bad things that can happen around him. If you have this placement, be careful to not fall into the trap of taking all things on your shoulders. This will distort you from your real task, which is to take the responsibility for the things that you indeed need to."

...Copyright (©) https://theastrocodex.com - Read more at https://theastrocodex.com/chiron-in-the-12th-house/

Part of the problem is that there is remaining bad blood between me and another person that I really can't do anything to remedy. I have to just live with it, and that's new for me.

Are you unable to get in contact with that person and appologize? Or is it something more complicated?

As far as how I reject guilt, I literally just have to ignore it. I am a naturally very empathetic person, seeing others in pain or distress moves me to take action, I can't ignore it. So when I've done something to cause some pain and I realize it naturally the feelings of guilt are there, and you want to do everything to make it right. But you can't always do that, you can't always please everybody. I'm more selfish today than I was many years ago, after dealing with so much heart ache and struggling with my inner demons a part of my soul seems to have weakened and i'm a lot more desensitized. This may be part of why I find it easier to reject guilt, my emotions seem to have diminished, at least certain ones.

I also have a tight Moon-Uranus conjunction, I think this might help with emotional detachment, I find it relatively easy to disassociate myself from things when I feel the need to.. I don't abuse this though because humans are supposed to feel and by rejecting everything you're lying to yourself and not being fair to others.

Witchyone · Jun 9, 2018

GuyWithWeirdChart said:
Are you unable to get in contact with that person and appologize? Or is it something more complicated?

As far as how I reject guilt, I literally just have to ignore it. I am a naturally very empathetic person, seeing others in pain or distress moves me to take action, I can't ignore it. So when I've done something to cause some pain and I realize it naturally the feelings of guilt are there, and you want to do everything to make it right. But you can't always do that, you can't always please everybody. I'm more selfish today than I was many years ago, after dealing with so much heart ache and struggling with my inner demons a part of my soul seems to have weakened and i'm a lot more desensitized. This may be part of why I find it easier to reject guilt, my emotions seem to have diminished, at least certain ones.

I also have a tight Moon-Uranus conjunction, I think this might help with emotional detachment, I find it relatively easy to disassociate myself from things when I feel the need to.. I don't abuse this though because humans are supposed to feel and by rejecting everything you're lying to yourself and not being fair to others.

I'm sorry you've dealt with all that. We seem to live in a society where depth of feeling, wanting to treat others well, and owning up to one's guilt are not appreciated. Too many people want to be a badass and "win". I just want to get along without harming anyone else. Maybe the only surprising thing is that it's taken me this long to become jaded about people.

Regarding apologizing, it's too complicated. The person is manipulative, and I can't have a straight conversation with them. All past attempts ended in pain.

GemwDepth · Sep 12, 2018

This may be too late as its 3 month later, but I'll chime in:

1. I am wondering if you are undergoing some type of Pluto transit. Those transits can attract manipulative people into our lives, and ends up being a soul-energy, draining / crushing type of experience that can drag you way beyond your normal ratio.

2. When you are dealing with someone who is manipulative, unfortunately its always the empath that ends up feeling bad, YET its never the empath's fault.

A relationship is always a combined effort of two people; its NOT logically feasible to have one person operating directly and reasonably, and another one doing underhanded things to sabotage it; there is always ONLY one result.

And there is absolutely nothing the nice / empathetic / sane / reasonable person can do about it. If a person is manipulative, their issues or power plays to send relationships / friendship down a destructive path, have nothing to do with you. They will have the same experience with the next person. You may need to think about detaching yourself from this person's issues. Its not your fault they have problems (are manipulative and seek power in any type of relationship), and you cannot blame yourself for your "normal" reactions to their "abnormal" disorder.

I am inferring a lot from what you described, my impressions of it, and thus making some conclusions. But my conclusions may not be 100% accurate.

If any of this happens to hit a mark, I have a 10 year old Venus-Pluto thread in which the final conclusions may help you.

Witchyone · Sep 12, 2018

GemwDepth said:
This may be too late as its 3 month later, but I'll chime in:

1. I am wondering if you are undergoing some type of Pluto transit. Those transits can attract manipulative people into our lives, and ends up being a soul-energy, draining / crushing type of experience that can drag you way beyond your normal ratio.

2. When you are dealing with someone who is manipulative, unfortunately its always the empath that ends up feeling bad, YET its never the empath's fault.

A relationship is always a combined effort of two people; its NOT logically feasible to have one person operating directly and reasonably, and another one doing underhanded things to sabotage it; there is always ONLY one result.

And there is absolutely nothing the nice / empathetic / sane / reasonable person can do about it. If a person is manipulative, their issues or power plays to send relationships / friendship down a destructive path, have nothing to do with you. They will have the same experience with the next person. You may need to think about detaching yourself from this person's issues. Its not your fault they have problems (are manipulative and seek power in any type of relationship), and you cannot blame yourself for your "normal" reactions to their "abnormal" disorder.

I am inferring a lot from what you described, my impressions of it, and thus making some conclusions. But my conclusions may not be 100% accurate.

If any of this happens to hit a mark, I have a 10 year old Venus-Pluto thread in which the final conclusions may help you.

Thanks for the post. It's interesting to read this thread again three months later. Writing down my rawest negative feelings like this in a semi-public way turned out to be therapeutic, and my outlook and opinion of myself have improved at a quicker pace since I did so. I'm experiencing hope again, which makes me feel more like myself. I'm embracing my core beliefs about myself and morality again. I lost a close friend to death in the interim too, so both the pain and the healing have been intensified.

Saturn was transiting my 7th house when the **** hit the fan, and it's currently grinding away at my 8th house. Pluto has been dipping between my 8th and 9th houses and squaring natal Mars during the same time period. On top of that, Uranus in Aries was simultaneously moving into my 12th house, conjunct natal Chiron. It seems I can't avoid looking into the abyss until it's done looking back at me. So I'm leaning in.

GemwDepth · Sep 13, 2018

I will add to your original post that I have a Cancer moon. Although it's probably not as sensitive as Pisces, when I was younger I felt feelings that weren't mine and ends up soaking up all sorts of things from other people.

I use to blame myself for things going wrong, and keep replaying things in my head of what I could have done in situations, so it didn't turn out the way it did. I couldn't help it, as a water moon you submerge so much into other people you forget who YOU are as a separate being.

It took some time for me to detach, esp. with the help of my Libra planets. Saturn in libra gives you sanity and a good perception of reality and separateness. Now its much faster and easier for me to gauge what is my problem, and what simply isn't. A lot of things belong to other people's issues, and sometimes self-preserving actions I do, are simply necessary reactions to counteract another's issues and abnormal behavior. So I feel no guilt these days acting in any sort of necessary self-defense. Although I do try to minimize it.

I find two things may help from the "guilt". One is concentrating on using your air planets if you have any. Second is being alone, you detach yourself from external influences, to avoid soaking up things that's not yours. So you can better "feel" who you are and your individuality.

watcherofthesouth · Sep 13, 2018

I'd be interested to know if your Saturn was/is crossing your moon (Sade Sati). When that happened to me it was the worst time. There were so many instances of humiliation/embarrassment, guilt, shame - all of the dark feelings that debilitate you and any hope of moving forward in the short-term. I learned finally how to change the energy with remedies and positive thinking - but mostly just patience.

GemwDepth · Sep 14, 2018

I would have to concur with moon saturn affliction. I have a natal moon-mercury square saturn. About every month, or 28 days, when the transit moon conjuncts my natal moon-mercury point, and activates the natal square with saturn, I feel depressed for about 1-2 days. All my thoughts turn negative and heavy. This happens every single month, and every month it passes. I've learned to do absolutely nothing reactively until it passes as its only temporary. Watcher is referring to transit Saturn aspecting your moon, or some other type of natal configuration, as Saturn would be slower moving, and fits with the longer time frame.

Witchyone · Sep 14, 2018

GemwDepth said:
I will add to your original post that I have a Cancer moon. Although it's probably not as sensitive as Pisces, when I was younger I felt feelings that weren't mine and ends up soaking up all sorts of things from other people.

I use to blame myself for things going wrong, and keep replaying things in my head of what I could have done in situations, so it didn't turn out the way it did. I couldn't help it, as a water moon you submerge so much into other people you forget who YOU are as a separate being.

It took some time for me to detach, esp. with the help of my Libra planets. Saturn in libra gives you sanity and a good perception of reality and separateness. Now its much faster and easier for me to gauge what is my problem, and what simply isn't. A lot of things belong to other people's issues, and sometimes self-preserving actions I do, are simply necessary reactions to counteract another's issues and abnormal behavior. So I feel no guilt these days acting in any sort of necessary self-defense. Although I do try to minimize it.

I find two things may help from the "guilt". One is concentrating on using your air planets if you have any. Second is being alone, you detach yourself from external influences, to avoid soaking up things that's not yours. So you can better "feel" who you are and your individuality.

Thank you for this. Part of the reason I feel so much guilt is because I subconsciously choose it. I would rather hurt than feel like I hurt someone else. I can't let myself be when I feel that I've mistreated someone. So obviously, self-preservation isn't my strong suit. I always have this sense that I can handle anything, so I should be the bigger person, which is pretty damned egotistical if you think about it. Anyway, I was thinking about these things and doing much better with my guilt and managing my own emotions (as opposed to everyone else's) before this particular phase in my life occurred and threw me off course.

Spending time alone used to help me clear my head, as you suggest, but during this phase my intuition got out of control, I became hyper-aware, and I began seeing weird patterns in everything, like a schizophrenic person or a conspiracy theorist. It scared me. It still scares me because I fear it might happen again. My mind is my most prized attribute, and I don't want to lose it to mental illness.

I wonder if my yod got "activated" and that's what I've been experiencing.

Witchyone · Sep 14, 2018

watcherofthesouth said:
I'd be interested to know if your Saturn was/is crossing your moon (Sade Sati). When that happened to me it was the worst time. There were so many instances of humiliation/embarrassment, guilt, shame - all of the dark feelings that debilitate you and any hope of moving forward in the short-term. I learned finally how to change the energy with remedies and positive thinking - most mostly just patience.

Thank you. I'm not familiar with that concept so I looked it up. I don't think it applies to me, if I understand it correctly. My natal moon is in Pisces, and Saturn was in Sagittarius and then Capricorn during this time. Saturn should be in Aquarius for it to apply to me, right? Or do you look at the transit Saturn in relation to the progressed moon instead of the natal moon?

And yes, patience. It's paying off more than anything else.

GemwDepth · Sep 14, 2018

Witchyone said:
Thank you. I'm not familiar with that concept so I looked it up. I don't think it applies to me, if I understand it correctly. My natal moon is in Pisces, and Saturn was in Sagittarius and then Capricorn during this time. Saturn should be in Aquarius for it to apply to me, right? Or do you look at the transit Saturn in relation to the progressed moon instead of the natal moon?

And yes, patience. It's paying off more than anything else.

Oh no look at the degree of your moon or mercury, any outer transit planets that oppose or squares it by degree or sign will have an affect on you because outer planet transits lasts for month or years. So for Pisces, anything in Virgo will oppose, and Sag will square, as long as its with orb of the same degree +/- 5 degrees you will feel it. The closer the more prominent. I am unsure about the quincunx though as Aqua will quincunx Pisces.

(*Note I just remembered Neptune is in Pisces right now and its going to be there for a while. It hits my Sun, IC and MC in various aspects, and I've definitely noticed the effect to me, and situations I've encountered. I wonder how Neptune in Pisces transit hits you, as it could be a combination of things. Look into it

)

I will have to say from my intermediate to semi-advanced knowledge, three things have an effect - transit, solar return and progression.

The issue is, I don't have enough statistical cases to rank them in terms of strength. All three has had an effect on me, but I haven't lived all that long to go by personal experience.

Pluto transits was the most prominent, my life was either destroyed or revamped. Then solar returns, and lastly progressions. I am still working to understand progressions. What I've been told is that within all 3 influencers, pay attention to exact aspects, that's the catalyst and area to look into.

Perhaps another option is for you to post up a thread in the Horary section and have someone answer a yes / no question. Like when will this end? (yes/no). What is the cause of my depression? (open ended but still very interesting).

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