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  #51  
Unread 07-08-2020, 08:50 PM
clip11 clip11 is offline
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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Clip, I know at least a dozen people if not more that are 40+ and without a partner and children. 33 is young. What you need to understand is that not all five fingers on your hand are alike. The more you compare yourself with others in terms of what they have and you don't, you will harm yourself more than help yourself - the proof is in the pudding - and you see how you feel about it by doing so - the reason probably you started this thread.

Some people are just late bloomers in life in certain areas. With you it is in settling down with a partner. Others might have partner, but no children. Yet others might have children, but dysfunctional families, or alcoholic parents. There is no end to comparisons of such kind.

Focus on achieving - whatever betters your life for you - with one step at a time. Luck in partnership is around middle of 2022. It sounds a bit far away, but perhaps because you need to mature up a bit emotionally. Join yoga or a meditation group to calm down a bit. Be grateful for what you have instead of getting depressed about what needs time.
What makes you say luck in partnership is the middle of 2022? Is that a transit or something?

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  #52  
Unread 07-08-2020, 09:22 PM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

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What makes you say luck in partnership is the middle of 2022? Is that a transit or something?
Jup transit in Pisces, and, for you, also your Jup return.

Houses that will be affected will be 4 (home and family, as well as real estate) and 7 (relationships, or even a business partnership)
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  #53  
Unread 08-07-2020, 09:36 PM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Jupiter and Saturn are conjunct with the Sun on Dec 20-22nd, during the northern winter solstice, and let's see what it does to the world to "build character" in the signs Capricorn/Aquarius while the Sun transits Sagittarius to Capricorn.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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  #54  
Unread 08-08-2020, 12:03 AM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

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Originally Posted by clip11 View Post
People say that Saturn in your chart helps you build character. So that justifies all of the hardships that it brings. But after you "build character" what then? Can you buy anything or get anything tangible with your newly built character. Its like working a hard job, but for monopoly money. Something that at the end of the day is worthless.

So how can any of the difficulties that Saturn bring be justified if there is no tangible reward at the end? It can't be unless you count reaching around and patting yourself on the back as a reward. So Saturn wants to "teach you patience", so what? What benefit does having more patience do for you? What can you buy with it? Can I trade it for goods and services? Do I get a harem of young women for my patience? If no, how am I or anyone else better off for "Saturn's lessons"?

That's why I call Saturn the devil's planet.
All: please forgive my jumping in here without reading the entire thread. I just read OP's lament here and felt I compelled to respond:

It looks like Saturn has not nearly done it's work with you. You will be seeing a lot more of it, more hard lessons ,until you are able to answer what the goodness and value Saturn good is in your life. Until that happens, until you grow up, which is what Saturn is about, you will remain a child, regardless of your age.
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  #55  
Unread 08-08-2020, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
All: please forgive my jumping in here without reading the entire thread. I just read OP's lament here and felt I compelled to respond:

It looks like Saturn has not nearly done it's work with you. You will be seeing a lot more of it, more hard lessons ,until you are able to answer what the goodness and value Saturn good is in your life. Until that happens, until you grow up, which is what Saturn is about, you will remain a child, regardless of your age.
Grow up is a very vague term that can literally mean anything. I can't "grow up" because I don't even know what, if anything, it means. Does it mean get a job? Does it mean physically grow? Does it mean move out? Pay rent? I've done all of that.
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  #56  
Unread 08-08-2020, 03:03 AM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Are you familiar with the poem Invictus?

It works sort of like that.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus
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  #57  
Unread 08-08-2020, 01:43 PM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

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Originally Posted by clip11 View Post
Grow up is a very vague term that can literally mean anything. I can't "grow up" because I don't even know what, if anything, it means. Does it mean get a job? Does it mean physically grow? Does it mean move out? Pay rent? I've done all of that.
Grow up should be seen in the context of things being discussed. When talking of Saturn, if one knows a bit about Saturn, one would have the basic understanding at least of what "grow up" means.

Even without discussing Saturn, grow up is in the context of one's age and can be well understood. When one tells a 5 year old why they must finish their meal so they can grow up - it is clearly meant "physically" without one having to spell it out. The same grow-up said to a 30 year old lazing around the whole day or not going to work on time (context) can be understood as - mature up and act responsibly. That is what Saturn is about. It really is not that difficult if one is clear about the context.
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  #58  
Unread 08-08-2020, 07:32 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Is Saturn CAUSING problems, or just ALERTING us to problems we NEED to be aware of?

I'm inclined to think it's the latter, which makes Saturn an extremely valuable "indicator".

However, by the same token, Saturn DOESN'T TEACH US HOW to solve those problems, but instead, merely WARNS us that we'd BETTER solve them, OR ELSE!

So, hating Saturn is like hating the MESSENGER OF BAD TIDINGS for not helping with the solutions.

Here's an example: Saturn's like a siren that signals a tornado warning.
Would you rather not even know that a tornado might hit, or be grateful that you received the warning in time to find shelter ON YOUR OWN?

Last edited by david starling; 08-08-2020 at 07:59 PM.
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  #59  
Unread 08-08-2020, 08:12 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Here's another example: Saturn's like the "Check Engine" indicator in your car. That indicator doesn't tell you exactly what the problem is, or how to fix it--that's your responsibility. But, it warns you that if you DON'T do what's necessary to fix it, you'll end up by the side of the highway, waiting for a tow truck. Or, if it's a problem with the braking system, something much worse than that.
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  #60  
Unread 08-08-2020, 08:20 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

There's also those Saturnian gauges that warn you that you're nearly out of gas or oil; and, in all-electric vehicles that you're nearly out of charge. They won't get you to the service station, but they warn you in advance that you'd better get yourself there before it's too late.

Last edited by david starling; 08-08-2020 at 08:23 PM.
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  #61  
Unread 08-08-2020, 08:27 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Sometimes, there IS no available solution. Saturn can only tell you to expect disaster. But, is that really Saturn's fault?
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  #62  
Unread 08-08-2020, 09:40 PM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by clip11 View Post
Grow up is a very vague term that can literally mean anything. I can't "grow up" because I don't even know what, if anything, it means. Does it mean get a job? Does it mean physically grow? Does it mean move out? Pay rent? I've done all of that.

That's a fair and honest answer.
I can only reply that if you don't know what grow up means, then it is unlikely you have grown up.

Growing up is an evolution in perspective. Growing up is embracing the evolving part, the ever-moving part, the process, not the perspective itself.
Growing up is not things that you do, like get a job, move out, pay rent. It is a recognition that things are always, always changing. That nothing is permanent; so don't get too attached to anything. It is about wholeheartedly meeting your very own life as it is in this very moment. Without accepting or rejecting it.

This is part of what appears to be one of Saturn's hard lessons. It's a good practice to try to undertake.
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  #63  
Unread 08-09-2020, 11:15 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

As an archetype, Saturn has a very unsavory reputation:

•The Devil, "Satan, Prince of this World", from Christian scripture.

•The "Grim Reaper" , which carries Saturn's symbol, the harvest sycthe.

•The "Devourer of Children".

•The "Greater Malefic", of ancient astrology.

Are we supposed to ignore these appellations entirely, and go only with "The Wise Teacher"?
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  #64  
Unread 08-09-2020, 11:39 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

"Saturnine" is derived from the name of the planet Saturn:

•Dour, meaning relentlessly severe.
•Gloomy
•Humorless
•Melancholy
•Somber


According to the ancient Roman religion, Saturn went insane with lust for power after committing patricide, then devoured his own children for fear they would usurp his authority.

Fear is the emotion most associated with Saturn.

^Is all of this completely irrelevant to an understanding of what Saturn means in astrology?

Last edited by david starling; 08-09-2020 at 11:44 AM.
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  #65  
Unread 08-09-2020, 11:57 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

As the half-mortal, abandoned son of Saturn, Chiron was a wounded healer. He was beyond the help of even his mentor, Apollo, the god of healing.

Saturn was known as the god of accidents. Coincidentally, Hercules accidentally wounded Chiron with a poisoned arrow.

Last edited by david starling; 08-09-2020 at 12:24 PM.
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  #66  
Unread 08-09-2020, 12:19 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Chiron was known as "the Wise Teacher", and Chiron is about "character building ".

Last edited by david starling; 08-09-2020 at 12:28 PM.
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  #67  
Unread 08-10-2020, 04:21 AM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
As an archetype, Saturn has a very unsavory reputation:

•The Devil, "Satan, Prince of this World", from Christian scripture.

•The "Grim Reaper" , which carries Saturn's symbol, the harvest sycthe.

•The "Devourer of Children".

•The "Greater Malefic", of ancient astrology.

Are we supposed to ignore these appellations entirely, and go only with "The Wise Teacher"?
You don't need to ignore them, but let's interpret them.

I don't believe in the existence of the devil or Satan. Do you, seriously?

Saturn symbolized the passage of time, as the god Chronos, from which we get our word chronology. Until recently (and in some cultures even today) infant mortality was really high. Even a child didn't have great odds of survival.

But metaphorically, the living child disappears anyway, with the passage of time, so that the young man or woman can take its place. The child is gone ("devoured") but the young adult continues.

Everybody is going to die eventually. Saturn represents that inevitable passage. It's not somehow hard luck that people die. That is the condition of being human.

Traditional astrology holds that really bad things happen to people. Saturn symbolizes this outlook, as do (to a lesser extent) Mars, the 12th, 6th, and 8th houses.

OK. So "into each life some rain must fall." Saturn says, "Bring an umbrella."
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #68  
Unread 08-10-2020, 04:28 AM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
"Saturnine" is derived from the name of the planet Saturn:

•Dour, meaning relentlessly severe.
•Gloomy
•Humorless
•Melancholy
•Somber


According to the ancient Roman religion, Saturn went insane with lust for power after committing patricide, then devoured his own children for fear they would usurp his authority.

Fear is the emotion most associated with Saturn.

Oh, right. And then we have that lovely castration story involving Uranus.

I think we have to understand this metaphorically. Ancient societies were often at war with one another, or overwhelmed each other with population migrations. A big example would be the various Indo-European invasions into Europe. One one regime replaced another, the conquerors installed their own gods as rulers of the pantheon, and described other gods as losing their power and authority.

^Is all of this completely irrelevant to an understanding of what Saturn means in astrology?
Again, metaphorically, time (Saturn as Chronos) devours children.

Ironically, in ancient Greco-Roman mythology, Saturn ruled over the Golden Age period of their history. He rules agriculture, which the Greeks and Romans saw as essential for their settled, civilized way of life. (Prior to the discovery of astrological Ceres.)
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #69  
Unread 08-10-2020, 04:46 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You don't need to ignore them, but let's interpret them.

I don't believe in the existence of the devil or Satan. Do you, seriously?

Saturn symbolized the passage of time, as the god Chronos, from which we get our word chronology. Until recently (and in some cultures even today) infant mortality was really high. Even a child didn't have great odds of survival.

But metaphorically, the living child disappears anyway, with the passage of time, so that the young man or woman can take its place. The child is gone ("devoured") but the young adult continues.

Everybody is going to die eventually. Saturn represents that inevitable passage. It's not somehow hard luck that people die. That is the condition of being human.

Traditional astrology holds that really bad things happen to people. Saturn symbolizes this outlook, as do (to a lesser extent) Mars, the 12th, 6th, and 8th houses.

OK. So "into each life some rain must fall." Saturn says, "Bring an umbrella."
But, you have to learn to bring an umbrella on your own, after getting caught out in the rain at least once. Saturn gives the test, its up to you to learn the lesson. Saturn doesn't teach, it tests, as in "withstanding the test of Time".
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  #70  
Unread 08-10-2020, 04:56 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."-{Abe Lincoln}
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  #71  
Unread 08-10-2020, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Grow up should be seen in the context of things being discussed. When talking of Saturn, if one knows a bit about Saturn, one would have the basic understanding at least of what "grow up" means.

Even without discussing Saturn, grow up is in the context of one's age and can be well understood. When one tells a 5 year old why they must finish their meal so they can grow up - it is clearly meant "physically" without one having to spell it out. The same grow-up said to a 30 year old lazing around the whole day or not going to work on time (context) can be understood as - mature up and act responsibly. That is what Saturn is about. It really is not that difficult if one is clear about the context.
What makes you think I am "lazing around the whole day"?
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  #72  
Unread 08-10-2020, 05:05 PM
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What makes you think I am "lazing around the whole day"?
Where did I say You are lazing around? Can you show me? :roll eyes:
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  #73  
Unread 08-13-2020, 11:17 AM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

I do not agree with how many people look at Saturnian issues. I see many Saturnian people who work too hard
and who take on too much responsiblity. They get overburdened,
used by others and they get exhausted. The solution for this is not the one we read about everywhere when we read about Saturn: "work harder and be more responsible and patiently await your rewards".

Saturn represents governments and the structures of our socities and our reality. We have been
programmed with the belief that things like money, status and materialism is what matters in life and many people who don´t achieve those things will feel like failures.

The people who get the most amount of power and money are narcissists and psychopaths.
There has never before in human history been such a huge discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
I believe I have read that there are about 30-40 million trafficking victims in the world and there are many slaves who work
hard for a bowl of rice per day. People in the western society have more money than
the poor slaves, but they are programmed to work hard and to spend the extra money they have on buying
things the slaves have produced.
They feel that they
never have enough and their aim in life is to work harder and buy more things to add to their level of status
(both their work and
their consumerism yields more money to the rich). More people are starting to realize
that they feel like slaves and that their lives feel meaningless. We call this as a rise of mental health issues. I call it a process of awakening to reality.

"It is no measure of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti

In the past it was easier to get ahead in the western society. Workplaces are now more demanding,
houses are more expensive and old people hold on to high positions so that it gets more
difficult for the young to climb. Many young people have studied at the university
and worked hard like they were told to and still find themselves failing at getting "succesful" and
happy in this system.
Many young people have mental and physical issues which makes
it even more difficult for them. I believe that
things are like this because the stars have aligned in order to create big changes.
Many are born with charts that gives them urges to break free. They long for something better. Like the thread starter has mentioned, human relationships are the
most important thing and more and more people are starting to feel that they lack the deep, meaningful
and loving connections that
they desire to experience with other people. People are harsh towards each other (also at this forum) and we
need more kindness.The harshness adds to the despair and depression among people.

Uranus makes us want to break free from the Saturnian prison and create new structures of the society
and our personal lives
that are aligned with our true nature. Chiron (our deepest wounding) is said to be
the rainbow bridge between Saturn and Uranus that unlocks the conscious awareness of the outer planets
(Barbara Hand)

As I see it, this world is structured in order to satisfy the needs of heartless psychopaths and narcissists and they need slaves that they can use and abuse. Instead the world should be adapted to the needs
of the most humane people among us. They are the ones who understand how we can create a wonderful world.

In the dark ages life was even more brutal than now. Which type of people do
you think improved things? The ones who repeated "this is how life is, life is unfair,
accept it and adapt to it and follow the societal rules. If you don´t like it you are too sensitive/weak or you expect too
much from this world", or was it the ones who said: "This world is sick and I can´t stand it, it has
to be changed".

Avicii had a T-square with Neptune/Uranus/Saturn opposite Jupiter/Chiron squaring Mercury. Look at the
video below. Due to his chart he was able to SEE and FEEL that this world is not ok and he longed for something better.
Despite his "success" he felt like a slave to the musical industry and he was suffering.
Have a look at his video "For a better day"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-knHXSKYY
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  #74  
Unread 08-13-2020, 01:17 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptunian Rainbow View Post
I do not agree with how many people look at Saturnian issues. I see many Saturnian people who work too hard
and who take on too much responsiblity. They get overburdened,
used by others and they get exhausted. The solution for this is not the one we read about everywhere when we read about Saturn: "work harder and be more responsible and patiently await your rewards".

Saturn represents governments and the structures of our socities and our reality. We have been
programmed with the belief that things like money, status and materialism is what matters in life and many people who don´t achieve those things will feel like failures.

The people who get the most amount of power and money are narcissists and psychopaths.
There has never before in human history been such a huge discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
I believe I have read that there are about 30-40 million trafficking victims in the world and there are many slaves who work
hard for a bowl of rice per day. People in the western society have more money than
the poor slaves, but they are programmed to work hard and to spend the extra money they have on buying
things the slaves have produced.
They feel that they
never have enough and their aim in life is to work harder and buy more things to add to their level of status
(both their work and
their consumerism yields more money to the rich). More people are starting to realize
that they feel like slaves and that their lives feel meaningless. We call this as a rise of mental health issues. I call it a process of awakening to reality.

"It is no measure of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti

In the past it was easier to get ahead in the western society. Workplaces are now more demanding,
houses are more expensive and old people hold on to high positions so that it gets more
difficult for the young to climb. Many young people have studied at the university
and worked hard like they were told to and still find themselves failing at getting "succesful" and
happy in this system.
Many young people have mental and physical issues which makes
it even more difficult for them. I believe that
things are like this because the stars have aligned in order to create big changes.
Many are born with charts that gives them urges to break free. They long for something better. Like the thread starter has mentioned, human relationships are the
most important thing and more and more people are starting to feel that they lack the deep, meaningful
and loving connections that
they desire to experience with other people. People are harsh towards each other (also at this forum) and we
need more kindness.The harshness adds to the despair and depression among people.

Uranus makes us want to break free from the Saturnian prison and create new structures of the society
and our personal lives
that are aligned with our true nature. Chiron (our deepest wounding) is said to be
the rainbow bridge between Saturn and Uranus that unlocks the conscious awareness of the outer planets
(Barbara Hand)

As I see it, this world is structured in order to satisfy the needs of heartless psychopaths and narcissists and they need slaves that they can use and abuse. Instead the world should be adapted to the needs
of the most humane people among us. They are the ones who understand how we can create a wonderful world.

In the dark ages life was even more brutal than now. Which type of people do
you think improved things? The ones who repeated "this is how life is, life is unfair,
accept it and adapt to it and follow the societal rules. If you don´t like it you are too sensitive/weak or you expect too
much from this world", or was it the ones who said: "This world is sick and I can´t stand it, it has
to be changed".

Avicii had a T-square with Neptune/Uranus/Saturn opposite Jupiter/Chiron squaring Mercury. Look at the
video below. Due to his chart he was able to SEE and FEEL that this world is not ok and he longed for something better.
Despite his "success" he felt like a slave to the musical industry and he was suffering.
Have a look at his video "For a better day"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-knHXSKYY
Beautiful!
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  #75  
Unread 08-14-2020, 03:22 AM
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Re: Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

Neptunian Rainbow, I wonder if you live a very Neptunian sort of life in a social welfare state. I wonder if Sweden's generous social safety net enables you to have a level of basic comfort that many people in other countries cannot count on if they lose a job or do not have health care coverage.

While modern society is peopled by achievement junkies clawing their way to the top, it's important to consider Saturn in the lives of very ordinary people .

I don't know if you have been a single mother of young children, who needed her job to keep a roof over their heads and bread on the table. When I was in this position, I used to put a $20 bill or two in my sock drawer right after I got paid, so that at least I could buy milk and a few necessities at the end of the month. I took work home with me from the office, often saying up past midnight, so that I could give my children my full attention when they were awake and wanting my care.

So yes, Saturn teaches lessons like perseverance and deferred gratification.

I don't know which poor people you mean, but you'd probably have to take different nations on a case by case basis. Probably you've heard of the Grameen Bank and microcredit, local economic development projects designed with the participation of the target beneficiaries, efforts to increase education for girls and women's entrepreneurship, and so on.

Saturn does not rule money: that's Mercury (traditional) although some modern astrologers prefer Venus as the ruler of money.

In mundane astrology, the government in power is a 10th house matter. Unless you have Saturn in the 10th or a Saturn ruled sign on the 10th house cusp, Saturn probably does not symbolize the government. (And no, I do not use so-called "natural" house rulers.)

Saturn rules things that are material and concrete.

Uranus is all about liberation, but it's a kind of 1970's evolutionary astrology that envisions Uranus bursting Saturn's restrictions. Saturn isn't going away. I say this as a very Uranian person (sun, Mercury, Venus in Aquarius, Uranus conjunct MC and trine sun.)

I get that Saturn doesn't seem like a whole heap of fun.

Jupiter is the planetary ruler of higher education and unfortunately it can give university students an overly optimistic sense of entitlement that is not realistic.

Ah, yes-- the "Dark Ages." This was a time when Arab scholars excelled in mathematics and astronomy. This was a time when much of Europe was free of centuries of Roman oppression.

As astrologer Steven Forrest put it, no planet is in the sky just to hurt us.

Saturn's lesson is fundamentally about maturity and taking responsibility.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Last edited by waybread; 08-14-2020 at 03:25 AM.
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