Astrological Parts. Known and Unknown...a project

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Oh heyyyyy.. so check this out... i *might* be on to something good here....

I've been contemplating all of these parts utilizing POF and POS... so far i have found an interesting pattern emerging regarding the POF

A planet triggering the POF shows a skill/attribute/virtue to be acquired; what one can (with some effort) equip themselves with.

POF triggering the planet shows the necessity of that skill; application of the attribute; what type of manifestation is required of the skill.

It seems to reflect a dynamic between the HOW and the WHY.

Let me show you a couple examples from my chart.

AS + POF - Saturn (Nemesis) = 9.17 taurus.

"A RED CROSS NURSE"
"CONSECRATION TO HUMANITY"

AS + Saturn - POF = Aries 23.01.

"BLOWN INWARD BY THE WIND, THE CURTAINS OF AN OPEN WINDOW TAKE THE SHAPE OF A CORNUCOPIA. "
" to extend the scope of awareness and creative expression"
"molded by transpersonal forces."

So the challenge is to become consecrated to humanity in order to extend the scope of awareness and creative expression

Another:

AS + POF - Mars : COURAGE: Cancer 24.16

"A WILL-FULL MAN IS OVERSHADOWED BY A DESCENT OF SUPERIOR POWER."
"inner strength and uncommon ENDOWMENT"

AS + Mars - POF: Aqua 8.02

"A FLAG IS SEEN TURNING INTO AN EAGLE. "
"We have here the ACTING OUT of the vision."
"The seer must become the doer"

So here the need is to acquire inner strength & subservience to spiritual forces in order to act, to do, to manifest.

AS + POF - Merc (Necessity) : gemini 14.17

"TWO DUTCH CHILDREN TALKING TO EACH OTHER, EXCHANGING THEIR KNOWLEDGE. "
" The need to clarify one's experiences through actual contacts with like-minded individuals. "
"The need for OBJECTIVITY has to be met"

AS + Merc - POF: Pisces 18.01

"A MASTER INSTRUCTING HIS DISCIPLE."
"The transfer of power and knowledge which keeps the original spiritual and creative Impulse of the cycle active and undeviated. "

And now the need is to acquire objectivity in order to transfer power & knowledge.

I can say that all of these examples make much sense in context of my chart and my life experiences. The dynamic seems quite relevant.

I'll try them out with Yeshua's chart as soon as i can verify the accuracy of His chart points. (trying to find my usb drive which has an older copy of his chart...)

Let me know what you think :cool:
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
Now you've got me thinking and I might have to go on a bit of a tangent here.....

I've been thinking a bit about the hermetic "planetary" lots and the other formulas that relate..... Now, I admit, though I have found the parts to be extremely accurate, I really haven't read up on them much at all. I wonder what Bonatti would have made of the formulas utilizing the outer planets. There's an obvious pattern developing.

We've got:

AS + POF - Merc = lot of mercury/ necessity
AS + Venus - POS = lot of venus/ eros
As + POF - Mars = lot of mars / courage
AS + Jup - POS = lot of jupiter / victory
AS + POF - Saturn = lot of saturn /nemesis-sudden advancement

Now, the immediate logical conclusion would be that you follow this pattern with the 3 outers to arrive at the "Lots" of each planet... so that you get:

AS + URA - POS as the lot of uranus,
AS + POF - NEP for neptune and
AS + PLUTO - POS for pluto..... HOWEVER.....

We might want to ask "why those specific formulas?" and it might lead us to the conclusion that it has something to do with the traditionalist viewpoint of benefic and maelific planets. (at this point i admit i'm speculating as i have not read up on the hermetic lots and how these formulae were ascertained...)

Notice the two benefics Venus and Jupiter are involved with POS as the trigger and the two maelifics Saturn and Mars are triggering the POF. It sort of flows with what we know of negative/positive attributes of a planet and of the dynamic between the part of fortune (Active) and part of soul (receptive)

Also consider that the formula As +POF -Nep (which would follow the linear transgression of the pattern) is "imprisonment" and it doesn't quite flow with the others as far as what a formula would represent if it encompassed the "lot" of that "planet" (at least, in my humble opinion.. the planetary lots seem to encompass what one is equipped with to help accomplish their goals; what attributes to aspire towards.. the part of imprisonment seems contrary to that...)

So maybe a more appropriate pattern would be to match the higher octave planetary formulas to their lower octave counterparts.... to arrive at the "lot" of those planets...

and that would be...

As + POF - URA
AS + NEP - POS
AS + POF - PLUTO

Now... at this point... this is just an idea i am throwing out there. There are so many of these parts utilizing POF and POS that it might be a good "jumping off" point. Let me know what you think of my theory. In the mean time I will look up these three parts for Yeshua and see what I come up with.
We had this conversation before and I informed you that I was knowledgeable of this pattern and, in fact, I'm inclined to think that I was the one that made you aware of it.
...unless I dreamed that I did or for a reason you may have forgotten the correspondence or never read it.

I also stated that I'm convinced of the accuracy of the title being that of the of the Part of Imprisonment as for the reason that it fits me, it fits what I find on Obama's natal chart and that of the late Amy Winehouse...and it also fits my brother as well... in each case I don't know what could possibly be a more accurate assessment of of what it represents as to my brother and myself.
As for Amy Winehouse as I know little about the woman other than she was an exceptionally talented singer, was an alcoholic, and had been born Jewish.
As for Obama, it is quite fitting and I believe that, while his birth certificate might not be real, the data is genuine and accurate. I believe he may have been born at someones home, in Hawaii, at the time and that His mother planned on never returning to the USA, not as a citizen any longer, anyhow. That there seems to be evidence that He attended college on a grant to foreign students and that He may have given his identity as being a citizen of an African nation, that I can't presently recall the name of, and as He apparently has had all matters and records pertaining to his past removed, or sealed, from public access adds some degree of credibility to this theory...at least enough to give it due cause for some consideration.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
I forgot to add that it also fits Dubya like a glove.
....it fits, Bill Clinton...and give me a little while and I'm sure I'll remember a few other notable persons that it fits just as perfectly as all these I've just named.

...sorry... No Sale, here.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Oh heyyyyy.. so check this out... i *might* be on to something good here....

I've been contemplating all of these parts utilizing POF and POS... so far i have found an interesting pattern emerging regarding the POF

A planet triggering the POF shows a skill/attribute/virtue to be acquired; what one can (with some effort) equip themselves with.

POF triggering the planet shows the necessity of that skill; application of the attribute; what type of manifestation is required of the skill.

It seems to reflect a dynamic between the HOW and the WHY.

Let me show you a couple examples from my chart.

AS + POF - Saturn (Nemesis) = 9.17 taurus.

"A RED CROSS NURSE"
"CONSECRATION TO HUMANITY"

AS + Saturn - POF = Aries 23.01.

"BLOWN INWARD BY THE WIND, THE CURTAINS OF AN OPEN WINDOW TAKE THE SHAPE OF A CORNUCOPIA. "
" to extend the scope of awareness and creative expression"
"molded by transpersonal forces."

So the challenge is to become consecrated to humanity in order to extend the scope of awareness and creative expression

Another:

AS + POF - Mars : COURAGE: Cancer 24.16

"A WILL-FULL MAN IS OVERSHADOWED BY A DESCENT OF SUPERIOR POWER."
"inner strength and uncommon ENDOWMENT"

AS + Mars - POF: Aqua 8.02

"A FLAG IS SEEN TURNING INTO AN EAGLE. "
"We have here the ACTING OUT of the vision."
"The seer must become the doer"

So here the need is to acquire inner strength & subservience to spiritual forces in order to act, to do, to manifest.

AS + POF - Merc (Necessity) : gemini 14.17

"TWO DUTCH CHILDREN TALKING TO EACH OTHER, EXCHANGING THEIR KNOWLEDGE. "
" The need to clarify one's experiences through actual contacts with like-minded individuals. "
"The need for OBJECTIVITY has to be met"

AS + Merc - POF: Pisces 18.01

"A MASTER INSTRUCTING HIS DISCIPLE."
"The transfer of power and knowledge which keeps the original spiritual and creative Impulse of the cycle active and undeviated. "

And now the need is to acquire objectivity in order to transfer power & knowledge.

I can say that all of these examples make much sense in context of my chart and my life experiences. The dynamic seems quite relevant.

I'll try them out with Yeshua's chart as soon as i can verify the accuracy of His chart points. (trying to find my usb drive which has an older copy of his chart...)

Let me know what you think :cool:

I'll read this over later today or maybe tomorrow, i've got an alligator that goes by the name of IRS snapping at my youknwwhat today, as I was foolish enough to answer a phone call from an unknown number, and all I heard was a recorded message give, with no repeat, an ultimatum to call a number before the end of the day, 11 digits, and a case number to cite, of over a dozen digits, and not having a pen and paper handy all I can remember are the first three digits of the case number, I ran out of minutes on my phone trying to get someone at a local IRS office and as I don't have much money on hand and won't be able to get any more until next week and that the only pawn shop in town is closed today [as if I would pawn anything to get money to buy minutes for a contraption i hate using or even having in the first place.] I presently am sitting here in my computer chair spinning at the rate of 90 WTF's per hour.

...ifyaknowaddimean?
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
...maybe ....

here's an idea that i would tinker with today, if i wasn't sitting here spinning at the rate...well you know...

How about researching the reverse formula for the Part of Imprisonment and see what you can come up with...?


...but, i did warn you beforehand why i have been reluctant to try to ascertain these titles and did advise you to leave them alone until some time in the future...and I'm not about to say that you shouldn't or can't ...as to mean that I think you are incapable of it. Far from the contrary. [In fact opposite of the contrary]
But I do advise, and did, to leave them alone until you get more experience under your belt.

I've already stated for the record that i believe you to have come 'equipped' with far more of what ever it is that makes a truly great astrologer than I will ever be and as to anyone else I've ever met that is new at the study...or old at it either, for that matter [with possibly the exception of Rudhyar, but he was born in a time unlike as this one is presently. I can cast and look at dozens of charts in the time it takes to construct one by the methods available to the world prior to his demise....and charts far more accurate than those determined by those previous means

...and it may be that it was a pre-destiny that he was not to come in contact with, and do charts that would have given him far greater understandings, other than those people that he did meet and do astrological charts for and come into possession of for his analysis and that would have given him a greater amount of astrological knowledge ...and allowed him to rectify any misconceptions, or conclusions, he had or had drawn to.

I certainly can't understand His preference for charts with Campanus determined Houses. As i have used astrodienst to re-cast the birth charts he used as examples in his books I have found everyone of them to be off by enough minutes of a degree as to the houses and the axis as well {and the charts axis is the same for a chart cast in Campanus as it is in Placidus} due to the fact that in these present times we have gps accuracy and also for the fact that the times recorded for birth are today way more diligently observed, and duly recorded, than they were before World War II and, until much more recently, with the introduction of more accurate time keeping devices into hospitals and greater diligence taken as to the accurate recording the precise time of birth.

that's all I can write today or think about...and I was reluctant to do that much as for all that I have on my mind and on my plate this day., I can't give it my full or even near full, attention.
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
Phoenix V. i feel I need to apologize for letting it slip my mind while writing those replies yesterday that you've recently been through some experiences that are quite more than just capable of preoccupying anyones mind to a point of extreme distraction and I should have sent you some sort of pm discussing whatever we had conversed about in the past on some of the points... as now I'm not all that so sure that I did discuss some things with you or if it wasn't someone else.
I haven't nearly as such to deal with myself at the present but enough of a certain conundrum to cause me to be off center, or out of sorts with, myself, presently...not an excuse, i know...but hopefully an explanation you can accept.
I will apply myself as to be more conscious and sensitive to of the needs and sensitivities of others in the immediate future.
Apologetically,
ptv

I haven't even had the time to find whether I calculated some of the Part formulae for the Nazareth chart for those that you are investigating and see what is symbolically there. If you have or can find the time to do so and also post what you find, with or without commentary, that would be wonderful...but I certainly am interested in what you might find and have to say, if you do.
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Thanks piercethevale.no, i agree that "imprisonment" is an accurate title, i wasnt suggesting otherwise. i was implying how that formula supports a different pattern for ascertaining the lot of the outer planets. i dont remember having that conversation with you but i am glad we are on the same page.

While i will always love a good investigation, i will seriously consider your suggestion to lay off of them until i have more experience.
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
Yeah, I realize that it is something that could be wished for...maybe in my case:wink:... but i don't see it as being so for others that I've checked for...although who am I to say what those others may have wished for themselves...?

...but like I said, in every case it really seems to be an impossibility of ever happening,


..and yeah, there are so many other Parts of which neptune is a factor that are still waiting with present titles that seem really dubious such as the Part of Cancer/Malignancy Asc. + Neptune - Jupiter , for an example...or the Part of Slyness, Asc. + Neptune - Pluto...and I, myself, wouldfn't dare tackle a Hermetic Lot type Part that utilizes Neptune until I was fairly confident the others have been ascertained and confirmed.
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Hey PTV. I'm shooting you a email, make sure to read it when you get the chance.

Parts involving Neptune would be a great avenue to explore next. I have a hunch that those parts aren't necessarily all so negative as they might have originally been attributed. for instance part of cancer which we established was likely more along the lines of perspicacity (sp?) .... you might want to change that one on the first post...

Have some loose ends to tie up then hopefully I will be able to tackle some more parts...
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
You know, I had forgotten about our solving that one...infact I had to look up perspicacity again to remember what it means:lol:

I've been so busy with just life for the last few weeks that I haven/t even been keeping an eye on my own personal astrology.

I did last night though...this is what I got going today [it's nearly 10 am here and I've just begun to rise]

my personal astrological condition is:
The Sun is conjunct my Part of Influence.
Mercury is conjunct my Part of Danger or Debt, and will be to my Part of Gossip and my Part of False Love.
Mars will be conjunct my Part of Change, Asc. + Uranus - Pluto: I think that we, or at least I was calling it Physical Change for some reason but have been giving it some thought and I'm wondering if it might not be a Part concerning Transformation of Higher Consciousness.?
Jupiter is conjunct my natal Uranus and my Part of Hidden Identity aka Part of Oration.
Neptune was perfectly conjunct my Hermetic Lot of Victory around mid-night here and is now 20 seconds of a degree separation of perfect exactness and the ...
True North Node conjunct my Part of Commerce aka Part of Communication. ...whew...
It should be an interesting day.
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
You know, I had forgotten about our solving that one...infact I had to look up perspicacity again to remember what it means:lol:

I've been so busy with just life for the last few weeks that I haven/t even been keeping an eye on my own personal astrology.

I did last night though...this is what I got going today [it's nearly 10 am here and I've just begun to rise]

my personal astrological condition is:
The Sun is conjunct my Part of Influence.
Mercury is conjunct my Part of Danger or Debt, and will be to my Part of Gossip and my Part of False Love.
Mars will be conjunct my Part of Change, Asc. + Uranus - Pluto: I think that we, or at least I was calling it Physical Change for some reason but have been giving it some thought and I'm wondering if it might not be a Part concerning Transformation of Higher Consciousness.?
Jupiter is conjunct my natal Uranus and my Part of Hidden Identity aka Part of Oration.
Neptune was perfectly conjunct my Hermetic Lot of Victory around mid-night here and is now 20 seconds of a degree separation of perfect exactness and the ...
True North Node conjunct my Part of Commerce aka Part of Communication. ...whew...
It should be an interesting day.

You know, i haven't been paying attention to my astrological influences lately either.... so thanks for reminding me.

neptune just so happens to currently be conjunct my part of soul! (About .14 moving towards perfection.) Ha. what a perfect time to look into the matter of neptune :)
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
as far as the part as+sun-nep... i believe it has something to do with the higher application of the ego.... the spiritual urges of the personality... maybe the application of self towards faith... maybe this would actually be the ultimate test of the self, the release of the ego
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
You know, i haven't been paying attention to my astrological influences lately either.... so thanks for reminding me.

neptune just so happens to currently be conjunct my part of soul! (About .14 moving towards perfection.) Ha. what a perfect time to look into the matter of neptune :)

...hmmm...?

Well, I'm not too sure that it would be the best time, but it certainly does have relevance. {too much for me to contemplate on this early in the day...and as I've got income tax issues weighing on me along with plumbing problems here at my apt. that is really making life difficult and has been going on for a week... as to timing on your Part...but that's not for me to say one way or another, anyways... }

...but it did give me a thought as to one of the 'Unknowns, i.e. Asc. + Neptune - Part of Soul... might be a good time to tinker with that one also


I had to look at the list and see what I've got on the Asc. + Sun - Neptune Part and find that I wrote: " Imprisonment and Captivity*, Genius [neither, imho. I'm current inclined towards the notion of 'Spiritual Resonance'. Or on a mundane level, 'Co-operation'] and as to the asterix, I noted that there are four different formulae given that title of ''Captivity"

But I had forgotten about the musings I had done that led me to thinking it associated with something along the lines of "Spiritual Resonance".

As I do feel rather confident that Asc. + Neptune - Mercury has something to do with Divination and not "Fraud" [but like the Part of Sudden Advancement/Lot of Nemesis, it might be as to how and what one did with those energies and genuine Divination does balance one of the two the titles given for it's opposite [Mercury - Neptune], that of, "Gossip"...but It's something about a specific type of gossip,. that which stems from ones' imagination, I would surmise.

So whereas the title given for the formula As. + Neptune - Sun is given as Treachery, I think I can see where that fits somewhat, picturing the 'Ego' triggering the imaginative facilities would be treacherous to oneself if the Ego hasn't been subdued by ones Soul or Spirit. Neptune in a spiritually developed and self realized Soul, {or even a soul merely developing in the right direction but of enough realization and awareness to subdue the ego sufficiently to give enough towards the proper conditions to allow the possibility of the Higher Vision influences of Neptune to transmit untainted by the Ego}, would be an aligned vision triggering the Ego and if the Ego has been conquered by ones Soul {as like the symbolism for my natal Sun in the 17th degree of Taurus is interpreted as} or subdued to a sufficient level, that does respond appropriately it would be something of a 'co-operative' or cooperation with ones Higher Being, it could be said that the Ego is in 'resonance' with the Higher Self and is being "cooperative".

As for the greater mass of humanity Asc. + Neptune - Sun, the Ego hasn't been reined in adequately to make this formula a positive influence...imho, of course
 
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Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Hmm yeah, i think were somewhat on the same page regarding the as + sun - nep formula..... interesting that you implied the ego has to be reigned in for the part to have import....... i think that says quite a bit about the meaning of the part.....

its one thing to get the gist and another t opinpoint an appropriate name, though. forinstance i get why you say "spiritual resonance" but the concept is not readily apparent just from that phrase alone.

i think "self awareness" is a good contrast to "self entrapment" which was another name for the reverse.

It would kind of be like..."Revelation of self"...

ps.... i also think there should be a part of inagination and part of creativity.... both of which I've been looking for some time now.....
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
I added the Part of Divorce which is derived from Asc. + Venus - Cusp 7th to the list.

I also added the alternative title of "Perspicacity" to the Part derived from Asc. + Neptune - Jupiter, which I should done some months ago...it had slipped by me. Phoenix Venus is due the credit on that one.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Concerning the Part of Hyleg - It recently was observed, and subsequently demonstrated, to propose there to be of a high percentage probability, that it is not only the New Moon prior to birth to be utilized but that of the post natal New Moon as well. Whereas the prenatal New Moon may quite well be the Astrological Part that all other Parts in ones natal chart depose to, the Part derived from the postnatal New Moon is, so far to date, appearing to be quite likely the Astrological Part as to which it must depose to all other Parts or at least to that is derived from the prenatal Moon. The Full Moon that falls between the two is demonstrating to be a valid Part and to date is believed to act as the catalyst, or 'springboard', by which the pre-natal New Moon may achieve that potential of what is symbolically illustrated by the Sabian Symbol for the degree the Full Moon fell on as I am finding that the post natal New Moon is essential to realizing the symbolic potential of the Full Moon and what is symbolized by the post natal New Moon must be incorporated into your life in the manner of application that is appropriate for the degree level of the sign it is found to be in.
{I have a thread on this topic and explain how that is to be done in this same sub forum of "Degree Symbols" here at aw forum but it needs to be revised and that revision has already been accomplished and posted at another astrological forum that I'm a member of, here at this link: http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=311 }
The three phases of the Moon that is the topic here, pre-natal New Moon, Full Moon and post natal New Moon are , so far as to this date, demonstrating to be of chronological symbolic {Sabian} relevance to ones' life.
As to the difference if one has a 'pre' or 'post' natal Full Moon in their natal chart is still in the process of being determined,

I also added the text above as a footnote to the listed formulae for the Part of Hyleg.

In addition, I also added a few proposed Astrological Parts that there has been shown evidence to actually exist, particularly those that have the Asc. as the "Personal Point" and the Part of Spirit/Soul as the "Significator". I'm not sure if I did post somewhere in this thread that member Phoenix Venus proposed and has shown that a formula such as that utilizing Venus as the "Trigger" has demonstrated a high degree of being valid and of a nature determined by the Sabian Symbol for the charts she used, for which to test her theory, to give very strong evidence to be considered worthy of the title of 'Lot of Psyche', that she also proposed.
Members of the forum are encouraged to join in the research, test this for yourselves and contribute your findings in the effort to make a final determination of validity and, or, propriety or appropriateness of title.

Thank you, ptv
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
Wow, Phoenix Venus, as I was in this thread having a need to look up a Part from the list so a to finish a post for the Pluto conj U.S.A. M.C. thread in the 'Mundane sub-forum' and got sidetracked into correcting a few typos and updating the list as I explained in the post I just made above...I figured that I might as well look over some of the posts preceding mine above to see if we did discuss in this thread your theory and experiments that lead to that "Lot of Psyche" {which does have a thread of its' own, as I now recall... and anyone that wishes to know more about what Phoenix Venus' method, procedure and findings by which she determined the influence and from which she derived a title of "Lot of Psyche" for the proposed Part she has submitted for recognition, can check that thread out as it is here in the "Degree Symbols" sub-forum} I notice in your post, post #184, as to your proposal for the "unknown, but heavily implied to exist, Part that utilizes a mirror opposite formula of that which produces the Hermetic Lot of Courage... that what you derived from your own natal chart using the mirror formula for the Hermetic Lot of Courage produced the exact same degree of the Zodiac that my natal chart produced for the formula for the Hermetic Lot of Courage.

Now, besides all the charts I wish to test the multiple Part of Hyleg theory out on, I have another one to add, and right this moment am dying to know what will be derived from the mirror formula of that Hermetic Lot of Courage applied to my natal chart.

As you got our composite Part of Destiny, I recall, just the other day using one of the proposed 'Hyleg" like formulae applied to your own natal chart.

...and if I ever get that thread about Pluto and the USA's M.C. finished, after a delirious "Happy Dance" that I know I'll do, I will just do that.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
I caught a couple of errors in my explanation, that is the first paragraph, in post #198 above.
I made the necessary corrections and also gave some clarification to the text where needed along with a link I have provided for those that wish to utilize it for there own research and evaluation.
Thanks for you patience and support,
ptv
 
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