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  #26  
Unread 12-21-2018, 11:09 PM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Siderealy, I'm using the standard, Vernal Equinoctial Point method for determining the Ages. Tropically, I'm using something new, which was inspired by the sidereal Ages. The sidereal "Aquarian Age" concept was originally about predicting the time of the "Second Coming".
Tropically, the Aquarian Age hasn't begun yet. Most sideralists don't believe it's begun yet, either.
You got it right.

I'm sure your theories of Aquarian Ages of the "second coming" should be containg some bias theories to those who are "showing off" community and aggressively "recruiting" new members to save them financially and existenly. It obvious from where you are live in.

Meanwhile, I'm here examines the theories of it with using from both Islamic and Christians view points. No traditional text there yet from Judaism but at least I mostly could understand their line of thinking (I should contact ms Waybread in this one). Not to mention our traditionals believe is basically Hinduism too, and you should already knew that ancient astrology and the Jyotish are only different in their calculations of hour marker which is Jyotish using Moon, Egyptian using Sun. So after considering all of that, I think the "second coming" could be the 12H related ages, the Ages of Destruction.

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  #27  
Unread 12-22-2018, 04:03 AM
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I've not heard about the Ages of Destruction. What Signs would your Age-indicator be in that would be considered Destructive Ages? Also, are you using the Vernal Equinoctial Point as the Age-marker?
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  #28  
Unread 12-22-2018, 04:25 AM
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

Actually, the American version of the sidereal Ages was fostered by Carl Jung, beginning in the 1930s. He secularized them, and even predicted that the Aquarian Age would bring an end to organized religion as we know it, including the Abrahamic 3.
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  #29  
Unread 12-22-2018, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Actually, the American version of the sidereal Ages was fostered by Carl Jung, beginning in the 1930s. He secularized them, and even predicted that the Aquarian Age would bring an end to organized religion as we know it, including the Abrahamic 3.
That Ages would be Pisces

Oh this is clearly different concept than yours. Is it true about that predictions by Carl Jung? As far as I know it's not gonna happen. I dont know much of his stories but I could assume that he using his own method, not ancient astrology. It makes me remember great quote by Petosiris few days ago:

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''One might say that they act like the Sirens, who attracted sailors with their treacherous, but harmonious, voices and with the music of instruments and of baneful song, then destroyed them on the reefs of the deep. This is what some men suffer and have suffered, men who fall in with the sects of those <other astrologers>: beguiled from the start by their spectacular words and their spells, they have become lost in a trackless wilderness, and finding no exit, they perish not only in the depths, but even in a maze''. -
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  #30  
Unread 12-22-2018, 06:29 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

David, how about that Chiron thing? Are there any object whos better options to consider than that?

And Saggitarius expressions is nowhere near prototypes of Chiron as serving and sacrificing for others. The way I sees it Saggitarius is Zeus himself.
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  #31  
Unread 12-22-2018, 06:41 AM
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That Ages would be Pisces

Oh this is clearly different concept than yours. Is it true about that predictions by Carl Jung? As far as I know it's not gonna happen. I dont know much of his stories but I could assume that he using his own method, not ancient astrology. It makes me remember great quote by Petosiris few days ago:
Pretty sure petosiris doesn't believe in astrological Ages of the sort we're both talking about. I still need to know if your vision of Ages is connected to Precession of the Equinoxes.
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  #32  
Unread 12-22-2018, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
David, how about that Chiron thing? Are there any object whos better options to consider than that?

And Saggitarius expressions is nowhere near prototypes of Chiron as serving and sacrificing for others. The way I sees it Saggitarius is Zeus himself.
Are you arguing against the Ancient-Greek version, that Zeus placed Chiron in the Heavens as a symbol of the constellational Sign known as Sagittarius?
Btw, Signs and Planets are traditionally of a different order: "Planets Act" and Signs are about "Qualities" that modify those actions. So, a Planet can't be a Sign in that case. Also, Signs don't rule Planets--it's supposed to be the other way around.
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  #33  
Unread 12-22-2018, 06:56 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Pretty sure petosiris doesn't believe in astrological Ages of the sort we're both talking about. I still need to know if your vision of Ages is connected to Precession of the Equinoxes.
Yes, of course because peto is hard nose hellenistic astrologers, but for me my reasoning is simply based on why astrology is exist, which is to know the fate of the King and his Kingdoms. Humanity is HIS Kingdom if we talking about my few point based on organised religons. No, I'm not sure if it connect to Precession of the Equinoxes, but again my pattern is come from the reason why astrology is exist which is to know the fate of the King and his Kingdoms.

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Are you arguing against the Ancient-Greek version, that Zeus placed Chiron in the Heavens as a symbol of the constellational Sign known as Sagittarius?
Btw, Signs and Planets are traditionally of a different order: "Planets Act" and Signs are about "Qualities" that modify those actions. So, a Planet can't be a Sign in that case. Also, Signs don't rule Planets--it's supposed to be the other way around.
Because simply ancient astrology never consider the Chiron itself. You're the ones who want to create this theories so I'm asking do you considering much more better object? I know that planets is act and the sign is qualities but I'm talking about the nativity of the sign to the planets

Last edited by SunConjunctUranus; 12-22-2018 at 07:07 AM.
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  #34  
Unread 12-22-2018, 07:17 AM
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Yes, of course because peto is hard nose hellenistic astrologers, but for me my reasoning is simply based on why astrology is exist, which is to know the fate of the King and his Kingdoms. Humanity is HIS Kingdom if we talking about my few point based on organised religons. No, I'm not sure if it connect to Precession of the Equinoxes, but again my pattern is come from the reason why astrology is exist which is to know the fate of the King and his Kingdoms.



Because simply ancient astrology never consider the Chiron itself. You're the ones who want to create this theories so I'm asking do you considering much more better object? I know that planets is act and the sign is qualities but I'm talking about the nativity of the sign to the planets
But, the object now called "Chiron" was invisible to the Ancients, as were Neptune and Pluto . So how could they have considered them? You make a good point though--should modern astrologers trust all the names bestowed on newly discovered celestial objects by astronomers with no astrological knowledge? I'm not really certain myself.
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  #35  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:06 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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But, the object now called "Chiron" was invisible to the Ancients, as were Neptune and Pluto . So how could they have considered them? You make a good point though--should modern astrologers trust all the names bestowed on newly discovered celestial objects by astronomers with no astrological knowledge? I'm not really certain myself.
Okay, I want to ask you simple question: why do you want change from the ancients astrology? No, I'm not offended just looking for a reason.

I'm not an expert but I see evidence that traditionalist told us, it doesn't matter it is bad or good fate, that should be the theme of astrology, I think. Now it's evidence that modernist didn't put the bad side of the fate, they encourage the positive psychology on it so that's not pure astrology itself.

Why would we using outer planets/asteroid if we could predicted the future events with classical planets?
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  #36  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:19 AM
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Smile Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Okay, I want to ask you simple question: why do you want change from the ancients astrology? No, I'm not offended just looking for a reason.

I'm not an expert but I see evidence that traditionalist told us, it doesn't matter it is bad or good fate, that should be the theme of astrology, I think. Now it's evidence that modernist didn't put the bad side of the fate, they encourage the positive psychology on it so that's not pure astrology itself.

Why would we using outer planets/asteroid if we could predicted the future events with classical planets?
For me, Traditional leaves out Gaia, Apollo, Pluto, and Poseidon/Neptune. If the Greco-Roman religion needed them, so does Astrology.[IMO]
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  #37  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:29 AM
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Um, SCU, I don't mind discussing this with you, including the fact that I see the predictive value of the 7/12 pattern in Horary. But....you're really not supposed to criticize the Modern use of the Outermost Planets on this particular board. It's sequestered, like the Traditional board, to avoid unresolvable conflict between Mods and Trads. That was a serious problem in the past.
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  #38  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:31 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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For me, Traditional leaves out Gaia, Apollo, Pluto, and Poseidon/Neptune. If the Greco-Roman religion needed them, so does Astrology.[IMO]
Can you bring the evidance of predicted events with these elements that traditionals missed out?

I'm open to change if you bring the evidance which is could be contributive to your theories.
If you put the evidence that should be great, not to criticize, it could construct your theories.

But from what I read your 12/12 pattern is good actually if that instruments could predicted events. That should be your theories to be discussed, I'm supported to that.

Last edited by SunConjunctUranus; 12-22-2018 at 08:41 AM.
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  #39  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:34 AM
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I had always find a little weird that the most "fierce" of the Signs, rivalizing only with Scorpio is represented by... a Sheep.

When I heard, though, the description of Bharani nakshatra (which makes part of Aries) I found it quite comprehensible. Bharani means to bear, and the meaning is basically it: to bear, support, accumulate.

Now, for what a Sheep could be a symbol if not for this? The curious thing is that Aries chief star is called "Hamal", which, in arabic, means sheep. But also means "bearer" - we read on the thousand and one nights that on the streets of Baghdad, "bearer" (literally "Hamal") was a profession, a person that carries the products that a person has bought on the street stores.

The "fierce" element is also present(Sheratan star is the horn of the Sheep), though the Jyotish divides Aries on three nakshatras, Ashwini, Bharani and Kritikka, the fierce element is very present on Bharani, which is described as a nakshatra of "extremes".
Many descriptions of Bharani seems quite close to the Manilius description of Aries and it's intensity and tendence to extremes.

The difference is that I don't see in modern descriptions the characteristic of "accumulation", which might be too obvious for the ancient writers, by the mere symbol of the sheep, but that has been apparently weirdly lost.

Basically, reading modern sources accumulating seems to be related to Taurus, and Aries is fast, fierce, impulsive, etc; the metaphor of the Sheep is because Sheeps are, after all, energetic animals, but, with so many ferocious animals on earth, to buy this explanation is somewhat non sense.
Hey, it beats the Babylonian "Hired Man" image for the Sign now known as Aries!
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  #40  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:37 AM
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Can you bring the evidance of predicted events with these elements that traditionals missed out?

I'm open to change if you bring the evidance which is could be contributive to your theories.
What sort of predictive events are you referring to?
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  #41  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:46 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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What sort of predictive events are you referring to?
Simply like trad could predicted the evil nature of John Wayne Gacy.
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  #42  
Unread 12-22-2018, 08:58 AM
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Simply like trad could predicted the evil nature of John Wayne Gacy.
Some Mods look at everything through rose-colored glasses, it's true. And some Trads are just the opposite. Personally, I don't especially like cold-readings, because I have enough empathic ability to back up the Astrology when I'm with the actual Chart-native.

Last edited by david starling; 12-22-2018 at 09:07 AM.
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  #43  
Unread 12-22-2018, 09:12 AM
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SCU, there's nothing wrong with preferring Trad to Mod, or vice versa. Just pick the type of Astrology you feel works best for you and become proficient at it. Astrology isn't a one-type-fits-all affair.
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  #44  
Unread 12-22-2018, 09:18 AM
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Hmm....kind of like music. What's your favorite type of music?
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  #45  
Unread 12-22-2018, 09:29 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

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Hmm....kind of like music. What's your favorite type of music?
David, it's good to see a mods who using sidereal. I agree with your statement about empathetic toward the native chart but sometimes we need to at least warn the native over bad things we spot on their chart. That warn could actually help the native to strengthen their characters.

And about outer planets, I don't think we could gather information of it's "lot", but at least I believe the transit of the outer planets is quite bring the impact, I'm yet to feel the transit of the outer planet. Did the outer planets impacting to your 4 major line (AC, DC, MC, IC)?

I'm currently love to listening daft punk's song.
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  #46  
Unread 12-22-2018, 10:58 AM
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Neptune's been running back and forth across my Asc for quite some time now, and I'm definitely feeling it. Here's a question: Are you a tropical Sun Cap, or a sidereal one? Same with Moon in Aqua, which i have in tropical, but in Cap in sidereal.
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  #47  
Unread 12-22-2018, 11:41 AM
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Re: Aries symbolism - lost in modernity?

I realized just now that the Golden Fleece myth is the same myth as the Graal, Jamshid cup's, Philosopher's stone.

David's remark therefore was marvellous.

Bharani is considered to be ruled by Yama, which is vedic Pluto. In India they call planet Pluto as "Yam".

Pluto bears the symbol of Alchemy, and Jamshid (the "bright Yama") is the source of many of similar myths.

So, I guess I wanted to write that modernity lost the Aries association with accumulation, bearing, value, and I must add now that modernity lost the notion that Aries is the sign of Alchemy.

About the sacrifice thing, my personal opinion is that the concept of "sacrifice" is close but not the same as of the concept of "transformation". Both include "bearing", but the "transformation" kind of bearing is more "soft". Alchemy is more about transformation. But Aries/Bharani/Golden Fleece deals with both.
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Last edited by aldebaran; 12-22-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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