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Horary Questions on Relational Issues For horary questions about relationships.


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  #1  
Unread 03-05-2006, 07:11 PM
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jenluvsblackcat jenluvsblackcat is offline
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Does he love me?

Yes, the classic horary question. Does he love me? However, I'm not sure what planet should represent him. Normally it's mars...or I've heard the sun, but this guy is older so I would think Saturn?

Here is the question time and place....
March 5th 2006 @ 1:21PM in Somerville, NJ USA.
Thanks! [/img]

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  #2  
Unread 03-05-2006, 08:18 PM
blumen blumen is offline
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Hi Jen,

I will try and answer your question. That was a difficult one, though, as I am not sure as to how judge a person’s feelings towards another. What house or planets should I use for love? I cannot think about any indicator of “love” as a feeling, therefore I will compare the dignities and debilities of your significators to see who loves the other the most. The chart was erected using Frawley’s method. I saw and understood your post at 20:20.

Here’s the chart





You are signified by Venus, he is signified by Mars, given the content of your question, this is very appropriate.

The age difference between the two of you could be pointed out by the fact that Venus receives an opposition by Saturn. Seeing that Venus receives an opposition by her dispositor who sits in Leo and is retrograde I thought that he feels little love. But let’s look at the dignities.

A strange – well not so strange actually, given the way you phrased the question – phenomenon is that your significators has only dignities, while his significators has only debilities. I double checked this, hope I am not wrong…

Venus is in her faces (+1), in the fourth house (+4), direct (+4), occidental (+2) and free from combustion (+5). The total score for Venus is 12.

Let’s have a look at Mars. Mars is peregrine (-5) and apart from this has no other dignities and/or debilities. Its total score is -5

Given these indicators and the fact that the Moon, you co-significator, is applying a conjunction to Mars I assume that the one who has the strongest feelings and the most physical attraction towards the other is you.


Blumen
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  #3  
Unread 03-05-2006, 08:19 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Hi Jen,

As you may be aware, I am experimenting with the method of using the time from which the question was received in order to interpret charts.

I believe that this is acceptable because the time asked and time received charts are both valid, they just give different perspectives, one from the inside, one from the outside, and an objective view can be taken from many different perspectives, which is why using this method more than one person can interpret from their own chart.

I received your question at 20:15 in St Annes, England, UK.

Here is the chart I will be working from:



Okay here goes:

The first thing that stands out about this chart is that the South node, ever malefic, is conjunct the Ascendant, and as the Ascendant represents you, the presence of the South node brings a constraining influence upon you. His cusp is conjunct the North node, he is pushing forward and you are pulled back. It is also vital to mention that the Ascendant is conjunct the fixed star Vindemiatrix, which is associated with widows, i.e. women who have lost their men. This star is not a good omen in questions involving love and relationships, especially not so in that it is conjunct the Ascendant from which we determine your significator.

As so often in questions involving love, you are Venus, as Libra rises, and he is Mars.

Let's look at the significators in this way: dignity shows the power of love, reception shows the inclination to love, and aspect shows action of love

Looking at essential dignity, without getting too deep, we see that Venus is in it's face and in an angular house. Mars is peregrine and in the lowest ranking succedent or neutral house. You have more dignity: the power of your love is greater than his.

The fact that he is peregrine and in a neutral house, shows his neutrality of feeling.

There is no mutual reception, even mixed, between Venus and Mars, so he has little power of love, and he is not inclined to love.

For aspects, we see that Venus applies an Air trine to Mars, which is unsuprising, as we already have seen that you have more power of love for him than he has you, so this Air trine demonstrates your future actions of bidding for his attention and attempting to communicate your feeling, perhaps lightheartedly in a social setting, but this lack of dignity and lack of reception between you both show that it is unlikely that this sentiment will be reciprocated.

Venus is in Fixed Air, so you have your mind set upon how you feel about him. Mars is in Mutable Air, so he is open minded and adaptable, footloose and fancy free.

Notice how, in considering the aspect that Venus applies to Mars, that first she opposes Saturn, so Venus translates light from Saturn to Mars, projecting the qualities of Saturn onto him.

Let's have a think about this. Saturn is the ruler of the cusp of the house that Venus is in, and the ruler of the sign that Venus is in, So whatever Saturn represents, Venus is very fond of and influenced by, and it is these qualities that infatuates her with Mars. The 4th is the house of the father, and consequently, Venus' idea of masculinity. Saturn represents authority, and so does the 10th house, in which Saturn is placed. Is it that you see an authoritarian, masculine fatherly figure in this man, and do you project the qualities of these ideals upon him, and is this why you are so fond of him? The 10th is the turned 4th house of Mars, and so represents his manhood. It would seem that there is some authoritarian, masculine characteristic about this man, perhaps something to do with his career that attracts you so about him. I would say he is a father figure character, he possesses authority to which you are attracted.

We should notice though that Saturn is retrograde suggesting the projection of the qualities of some authoritarian figure from the past, and it is in it's detriment, but this is eased by it being in it's term and face. I must admit before wandering up the garden path that I am unsure what to make of this, at least until you have responded.

Before I dig myself into a hole, let's look at the Moon, your soul. The Moon's applies conjunction to Mars, but before it does so sextiles saturn, projecting the qualities of Saturn onto Mars yet again, you really are very attracted to him at a soul level, but it is somehow paternal reassurance you seek. I think this is an example of prohibiton, Saturn gets in the way of the smooth conjunction of the Moon to Mars, so your projected ideal gets in the way of this connection, you need to evaluate what it is that really attracts you to this man, who he really is, or some aspect of him that represents something solid and dependable which you need to feel reconciled with. The Moon is less dignified than Venus, you do not love as deeply as it would seem on the outside, you seek to unite with him for security. It seems you are in love with the idea of loving him. So you are very attracted to him at a soul level, but not for the reasons it would seem on the outside.

The Moon translates light, this time from Venus onto Saturn, showing how you wish to apply yourself to this paternal figure of authority, masculinity and wisdom, which at the same time you feel diametrically opposed to (Venus opposite Saturn) and seek to establish a sense of connection with, and it is these qualities that you project into Mars, which is why him loving you would be so important to you.

I must ask here if you were separated from your father early, is he alive, and is it the comfort of some authoritarian father figure that you seek? If so, then this man would seem the ideal candidate. Anyway, that's just speculation.

In answer to the question of whether this man loves you or not I would say no, not really:

* South node conjunct the Ascendant holds you back, you do not attain your wish.
* Vindemiatrix conjunct the Ascendant, woman does not benefit from the love of her man.
* Venus more greatly dignified than Mars: you love him more, he is neutral.
* No reception between his significator and either of yours, no inclination to love.
* Venus and Moon apply aspects to Mars, you demonstrate your love for him but no aspects from Mars to Venus or the Moon, he doesn't love back.

These are the main indicators from which I reason the answer to the question.

Draco
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  #4  
Unread 03-05-2006, 11:01 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Hi Blumen,

I refrained from reading your post before sending my own as I didn't want my interpretation to be influenced. As it happens, you received the question just 5 minutes after me, and given that the charts are almost identical, I imagine we aren't too far from one and other.

Our result are very comparable. I also ascertained that she loves him more, he is neutral.

You said:

Quote:
That was a difficult one, though, as I am not sure as to how judge a person’s feelings towards another. What house or planets should I use for love? I cannot think about any indicator of “love” as a feeling
It would not be necessary in a question such as this to determine a significator for 'love' in itself. Love is an abstract thing which is difficult to define, so look to the relationship between the two significators in order to try and determine the nature and quality of the 'love'. This is how to judge the nature of two people's feelings towards one and other.

As for a planet or house which would indicate love, then Venus is love, and the 5th house is love. Venus and the 5th house are love in all it's forms, love of a lover, love of one's children, love of a hobby, love of a pet, country or painting. In a question concerning love, when Venus is not represented as a significator, then it is worthwhile looking at what Venus is doing in the chart anyway as natural ruler of 'love'. As it happens, Venus usually is a significator in love charts, and it should be regarded as curious if she is not, so we would try to determine why by seeing what she is doing. I suppose we could look to the 5th house cusp to represent the abstract concept of love itself, but this would be surplus to requirements and could make the chart more complex to analyse than needs be.

Just out of interest, let's see what the ruler of the 5th cusp is up to, and see what this might tell us about the nature of the love asked about. The ruler of the 5th cusp is Saturn, which brings us back to that idea which she projects upon this man, so if this is what the love is, when she say's, 'Does he love me?', then what she means is, can he embody the qualities of the paternal authority that I have projected onto him. Yet this was already discussed in the chart. She want's this man to be Daddy.

Or at least I would say so until we get some feedback.

Draco
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  #5  
Unread 03-05-2006, 11:11 PM
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jenluvsblackcat jenluvsblackcat is offline
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Draco and Blumen,

All I can say is wow! Very accurate. I am nearly without words here. And yeah, my father passed away over a year ago. We didn't have much of a relationship, eventhough he was a good provider for the family.
Once again, both of you did a tremendous job at the interpretation!
Thank you so much.

Jen
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  #6  
Unread 03-05-2006, 11:25 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Hi Jen,

I am glad that you are pleased with the interpretation. I had a feeling that you may have lost your father.

The chart would seem to indicate that you are projecting the qualities of your father onto this man, and it is this idea of reclaiming the reassurance of paternal authority in a male that you are really in love with, rather than who this guy really is. So be aware of this, and don't worry too much if he doesn't love you back, because is it not him you are in love with anyway, psychologically it is what he echoes about your fathers characteristics and influence that you are really infatuated with.

The indications that made me think that you may have lost your father are that Saturn, lord of death, is the ruler of the 4th cusp, the house of the father and the place of the grave. Saturn in the 10th, is authority, and taking into consideration that Saturn rules the 4th then this is paternal authority. Saturn however, also shows the loss of your father, and that it is retrograde shows that this happened in the past, and that it is these fatherly qualities that you project upon the man that you want to love you shows how you are seeking to regain the sense of paternity which you have lost. Is there anything which overtly reminds you of your father about this man? If not then it is subconcious.

The fact that you did not have much of a relationship with your father would perhaps cause you to seek a father figure in men anyway, but this feeling would have been exacerbated by your father's death. In totally losing the opportunity to feel the love of your father then you seek paternal like love even more desperately in men, and in this man in particular.

None the less, it will figure as not so important if this man does not love you back, as he will not replace your father anyway, which is the idea that you are really in love with.

So glad you were happy with our responses. Thanks for the opportunity for us to study the question. I seem to be improving, but I'd get nowhere without these questions to answer and feedback.

Draco
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  #7  
Unread 03-06-2006, 08:30 PM
blumen blumen is offline
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Hello Draco,

thanks a lot for your reply, it was very useful,

Blumen
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