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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 03-17-2020, 01:45 AM
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How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Thread title. Several people here have written before that in order to understand it mythology is important to create the meaning for such things.

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Unread 03-17-2020, 01:47 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

I mean, reading the older scientific works, they seem to be more secular. In the sense that they don't try to use mystical matters to explain things, but finding ways to explain things using their logic/reason.
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Unread 03-17-2020, 05:14 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Mythology has a lot to do with the planetary rulerships. Mercury rules liars and thieves because the young god Mercury was a trickster. Mars rules soldiers because the god Mars ruled warfare.

Mystical and mythical mean different things.
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Unread 03-17-2020, 05:56 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Ptolemy doesn’t really mention those things when it comes to the nature of the planets. He doesn’t mention houses that much either, only occasionally.
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Unread 03-18-2020, 04:38 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

He doesn't. On the other hand, another Hellenistic astrologer, Manilius (Astronomica) has a lot of references to the Roman gods.
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Unread 03-18-2020, 06:24 AM
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Which approach do you like more?
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Unread 03-19-2020, 01:44 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

I use a mix of both. So much in astrology depends on the question being asked: what are we trying to learn from a horoscope?
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Unread 03-19-2020, 11:18 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

I don't think there is any connection between mythology and Astrological predication.

Mythology is more to di wth Literature and Religion. Astrology is a separate field of craft, I feel.

Astrology is more to do correlation with planetary enegry and movement of the stars and human life.
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Unread 03-20-2020, 03:57 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Liz Greene, a really famous modern astrologer, has written several books on mythology and archetypes symbolized by the planets and signs.

My personal feeling is that if you look up planetary rulerships, many of them really refer back to mythology. If we want to know why Venus rules romantic love and female sexuality, for example, it's not because astrologers did all kinds of empirical research. It is because this was the nature of the Roman goddess Venus.
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Unread 03-20-2020, 12:13 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

I thought the ancient Astrology was earlier in existent than the Greek Mythology.

When was it, when the Sumerians were forecasting for the fortunes looking at the stars?
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Unread 03-20-2020, 12:52 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Myth is:

"a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events."





Using the above definition, it is very important. Myth is the truth of past ages. Using names and creatures that depicted what was happening in ages past. Myth uses words from folklore from different regions using different names for the same thing. Names that were important to their region, or world at the time of writing, and of spoken word memory.



Thirteen Venus Avatars

Sumer: INANNA, lover Dumuzi. Where Nana, Dana, Anne, Notre Dame.
Egypt: ISIS or Issis. Hence Ys, Paris, Pâris
Akkadie: ISTAR planet Venus, lover Enkidu. Hence star-stern-star
Babylon: ISTARTE, lover Tamuze the Moon. Where Ester, Aisha
Dilmun: ASTARTE, sister and wife of Baal. Hence star-stern-star
Canaan: ASHERAH, consort Asherah of Yahweh. Hence ash, ash-ram
Punt: APHTORET also Annat, sister and wife of Baal
Cyprus: APHRODITE, born in Cyprus according to Herodotus
Rome: VENUS, the current name of the planet
Scandinavia: FRIGG, Odin’s wife
Germany: FRYDA, friday = Friday, the day of Venus
India: SITA, Rama’s wife. She was red or blonde.
Greece: HELENE, lover of Paris, red or blonde ditto.

The ancients used myth to pass on the information of the past and the planets for us to use as a template. One day, we will pass on through the ages, using names of our time and myth. For venus we might use names from our time, maybe for instance Diana. Known worldwide for her charitable actions, and loved by many. Her truth may become myth and be cast to the star.
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Unread 03-20-2020, 01:10 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Myth is:

"a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events."

Using the above definition, it is very important. Myth is the truth of past ages. Using names and creatures that depicted what was happening in ages past. Myth uses words from folklore from different regions using different names for the same thing. Names that were important to their region, or world at the time of writing, and of spoken word memory.

Thirteen Venus Avatars

Sumer: INANNA, lover Dumuzi. Where Nana, Dana, Anne, Notre Dame.
Egypt: ISIS or Issis. Hence Ys, Paris, Pâris
Akkadie: ISTAR planet Venus, lover Enkidu. Hence star-stern-star
Babylon: ISTARTE, lover Tamuze the Moon. Where Ester, Aisha
Dilmun: ASTARTE, sister and wife of Baal. Hence star-stern-star
Canaan: ASHERAH, consort Asherah of Yahweh. Hence ash, ash-ram
Punt: APHTORET also Annat, sister and wife of Baal
Cyprus: APHRODITE, born in Cyprus according to Herodotus
Rome: VENUS, the current name of the planet
Scandinavia: FRIGG, Odin’s wife
Germany: FRYDA, friday = Friday, the day of Venus
India: SITA, Rama’s wife. She was red or blonde.
Greece: HELENE, lover of Paris, red or blonde ditto.

The ancients used myth to pass on the information of the past and the planets for us to use as a template. One day, we will pass on through the ages, using names of our time and myth. For venus we might use names from our time, maybe for instance Diana. Known worldwide for her charitable actions, and loved by many. Her truth may become myth and be cast to the star.
'….in modern times especially past thirty/forty years
modernist astrologers begin with mythology
with the name of the planet and any sort of cultural associations
that there are with that name
or
with the designation that is given to the planetary body
or other celestial body.
BUT
in ancient texts mythology isn't as frequently mentioned
and not referred to
or resorted to commonly
in order to explicate
meanings of the planets/other celestial bodies
as one might assume

if approaching it as a modern astrologer
where that's one of first things people refer to.....'
Chris Brennan
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Unread 03-20-2020, 02:47 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

When an entity is refound, or renamed, we go to the name of it, and if it is found in past writings, that is where we start to draw our knowledge from.

[Deleted reference to Uranus because this is a traditional thread. Do not post ANYTHING on the traditional astrologer board without reading AND FOLLOWING traditional forum rules! - Moderator]

When looking at the fixed stars the myth is used to explain the affects it gifts to astrological meaning. They seem to work together.

Last edited by Osamenor; 03-20-2020 at 04:57 PM.
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Unread 03-20-2020, 03:00 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post

I mean,
reading the older scientific works,
they seem to be more secular.
In the sense that
they don't try to use mystical matters to explain things,

but
finding ways to explain things using their logic/reason.
'....While mythology is relevant, it is not as important
or resorted to as frequently in the early tradition
as one might expect.
Only in modern times has Myth become the primary go-to for meanings....'
Chris Brennan
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Unread 03-20-2020, 04:46 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Alexander Eliot wrote The Global Myths. While he is not an astrologer, reading on the Global myths you can see an obvious correlation between myth and the astrological interpretation of entities. While the traditionalists say there is no correlation, they did not get there information from past word of mouth or writings, I am inclined to disagree. The coincidences are too many for it to be chance.
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Unread 03-20-2020, 10:51 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
I thought the ancient Astrology was earlier in existent than the Greek Mythology.

When was it, when the Sumerians were forecasting for the fortunes looking at the stars?
The ancient Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods. Their worship of these gods predated their development of astrology. So the characteristics of these gods pre-dated their calculations. Even so, despite the accuracy of their observations, their predictions were based upon their religious beliefs. For example, the planet Mars in certain locations brought warfare and drought, because that was the god's rulership and nature.

When the Greeks adopted astrology, they put names on the planets that corresponded to similar Greek gods. In this way, the Babylonian god Nergal of warfare became the Greek planetary god Ares and the Roman Mars.

In Babylon, you find a mix of beliefs that the planets were gods to omens of the gods. The Greeks thought that the gods ruled planets but were not identical. Prior to the adoption of astrology from Babylon, the Greeks had merely descriptive names for planets. For example, the planet Mars was known as Pyroeis, the fiery one.
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Last edited by waybread; 03-20-2020 at 10:56 PM.
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Unread 03-20-2020, 11:03 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Some of the Greek astrological authors like Ptolemy and Valens partook more of the rationalism that was common in ancient Greece and Rome. But society as a whole still worshiped their gods. Some of the authors talked about the ban on doing a horoscope for the emperor, on the grounds that he was divine, so many of the calculations simply wouldn't apply. One thing that comes across in Manilius (1st century CE) is that the heavens were to be spoken of in poetry, as suited the study of the heavens. These beliefs began to change in his day, however.

I can suggest some books if anyone's interested.

The sun god of Greece and Rome initially was Phoebus, but by the time astrology became mainstream later in Antiquity, Apollo was identified as the sun god. Apollo ruled intellectual pursuits, prophecy, and a few other things. Hence the sun joying in the 9th house.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 03-20-2020, 11:08 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post

Alexander Eliot wrote The Global Myths.

While he is not an astrologer,

reading on the Global myths you can see an obvious correlation between myth and the astrological interpretation of entities. While the traditionalists say there is no correlation, they did not get there information from past word of mouth or writings, I am inclined to disagree. The coincidences are too many for it to be chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post


When an entity is refound, or renamed, we go to the name of it, and if it is found in past writings, that is where we start to draw our knowledge from.

[Deleted reference to Uranus because this is a traditional thread.


Do not post ANYTHING on the traditional astrologer board without reading AND FOLLOWING traditional forum rules! - Moderator]

When looking at the fixed stars the myth is used to explain the affects it gifts to astrological meaning. They seem to work together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Some of the Greek astrological authors like Ptolemy and Valens partook more of the rationalism that was common in ancient Greece and Rome. But society as a whole still worshiped their gods. Some of the authors talked about the ban on doing a horoscope for the emperor, on the grounds that he was divine, so many of the calculations simply wouldn't apply. One thing that comes across in Manilius (1st century CE) is that the heavens were to be spoken of in poetry, as suited the study of the heavens. These beliefs began to change in his day, however.

I can suggest some books if anyone's interested.

The sun god of Greece and Rome initially was Phoebus, but by the time astrology became mainstream later in Antiquity, Apollo was identified as the sun god. Apollo ruled intellectual pursuits, prophecy, and a few other things. Hence the sun joying in the 9th house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

I don't think there is any connection
between mythology
and
Astrological predication.


Mythology is more to di wth Literature and Religion.
Astrology is a separate field of craft,
I feel.
Astrology is more to do
correlation with planetary enegry
and
movement of the stars
and human life.
Exactly
'.....So in modern times mythology is a core element
but in ancient times



if you look at, for example, a translation of Valens



HE IS NOT SAYING the Sun rules the intellect because of
its association with the Greek God Helios.
He just has other conceptual or theoretical rationales
for why the Sun is associated with the intellect
and they don’t necessarily have anything to do with
the God who is associated
or shares a name with that celestial body.


So that is an important point....' Chris Brennan
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Unread 03-21-2020, 02:58 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
When an entity is refound, or renamed, we go to the name of it, and if it is found in past writings, that is where we start to draw our knowledge from.

[Deleted reference to Uranus because this is a traditional thread. Do not post ANYTHING on the traditional astrologer board without reading AND FOLLOWING traditional forum rules! - Moderator]

When looking at the fixed stars the myth is used to explain the affects it gifts to astrological meaning. They seem to work together.
Oops, sorry Osamenor, I was looking at the interesting thread title, missed the traditional placement.

Also surprised Bunraku is in Traditional!

Last edited by Opal; 03-21-2020 at 12:31 PM.
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Unread 03-21-2020, 07:48 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

I think it may have been a factor in determining the meanings of the planets but I don't think it was the determining factor.

The meanings of the planets seem to come from a combination of myth and astronomical factors like speed and visibility, with the latter definitely outweighing the former. Astrological Jupiter has very little in common with his mythological namesake, and his benefic qualities seem to come more from the planet's radiant appearance in the night sky than Jupiter's mythological exploits.

There was some level of association between the myths and planets but not one to one, strict identifications. The planets are clusters of ideas and myths are only a part of that cluster.

But for people practicing traditional astrology in the 21st century, the myths surrounding the gods associated with the planets are largely irrelevant for astrological practice. Unless you're into that kind of thing.
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Unread 03-22-2020, 03:14 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
I think it may have been a factor in determining the meanings of the planets but I don't think it was the determining factor.

The meanings of the planets seem to come from a combination of myth and astronomical factors like speed and visibility, with the latter definitely outweighing the former. Astrological Jupiter has very little in common with his mythological namesake, and his benefic qualities seem to come more from the planet's radiant appearance in the night sky than Jupiter's mythological exploits.

There was some level of association between the myths and planets but not one to one, strict identifications. The planets are clusters of ideas and myths are only a part of that cluster.

But for people practicing traditional astrology in the 21st century, the myths surrounding the gods associated with the planets are largely irrelevant for astrological practice. Unless you're into that kind of thing.
Being "into that kind of thing" might take one into esoteric realms. Cf. Mercury (Hermes, Hermanubis) as the psychopomp, or conductor of the souls of the dead.

I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.

But once we start asking why questions, then the mythological cosmos beckons.

Why does Mercury rule liars and thieves?

Why does Mars rule soldiers?

Why does Saturn rule the elderly?
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 03-22-2020, 11:26 AM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Being "into that kind of thing" might take one into esoteric realms.
Cf. Mercury (Hermes, Hermanubis) as the psychopomp,
or conductor of the souls of the dead.
I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.
But once we start asking why questions, then the mythological cosmos beckons.

Why does Mercury rule liars and thieves?
Why does Mars rule soldiers?
Why does Saturn rule the elderly?
however
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post


I think
it may have been a factor
in determining the meanings of the planets
but I don't think it was the determining factor.

The meanings of the planets seem to come from a combination of myth and astronomical factors like speed and visibility, with the latter definitely outweighing the former. Astrological Jupiter has very little in common with his mythological namesake, and his benefic qualities seem to come more from the planet's radiant appearance in the night sky than Jupiter's mythological exploits.

There was some level of association between the myths and planets
but not one to one, strict identifications.
The planets are clusters of ideas

and myths are only a part of that cluster.
But for people practicing traditional astrology in the 21st century
the myths surrounding the gods associated with the planets
are largely irrelevant for astrological practice.
Unless you're into that kind of thing.
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Unread 03-22-2020, 12:55 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Originally Posted by Opal

Alexander Eliot wrote The Global Myths.

While he is not an astrologer,

reading on the Global myths you can see an obvious correlation between myth and the astrological interpretation of entities. While the traditionalists say there is no correlation, they did not get there information from past word of mouth or writings, I am inclined to disagree. The coincidences are too many for it to be chance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal


When an entity is refound, or renamed, we go to the name of it, and if it is found in past writings, that is where we start to draw our knowledge from.

[Deleted reference to Uranus because this is a traditional thread.


Do not post ANYTHING on the traditional astrologer board without reading AND FOLLOWING traditional forum rules! - Moderator]

When looking at the fixed stars the myth is used to explain the affects it gifts to astrological meaning. They seem to work together.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@JupiterAsc

Do traditionalist astrologers only use ancient history books written by astrologers? If a traditionalist is limited to only books written by astrologers it must be very hard to read history.

Thanks for pointing out what Osamenor wrote. I would not have missed it if even without your reiteration.

Opal

Last edited by Opal; 03-22-2020 at 01:00 PM.
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Unread 03-22-2020, 01:37 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Being "into that kind of thing" might take one into esoteric realms. Cf. Mercury (Hermes, Hermanubis) as the psychopomp, or conductor of the souls of the dead.

I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.

But once we start asking why questions, then the mythological cosmos beckons.

Why does Mercury rule liars and thieves?

Why does Mars rule soldiers?

Why does Saturn rule the elderly?
Sure....

But remember (and this is not to be exclusionary) that you're on a traditional subforum. The mythological cosmos doesn't really play into the predictive nature of traditional astrology. I'm actually understating it, it almost never plays into the predictive nature of traditional astrology. I would actually argue that delving into mythology would get in the way of the concrete interpretations that traditional aims for.

I'm sure that one could come to all kinds of insights through meditating on the mythology tied to the planets and especially the mythology tied to the constellations and fixed stars, but that kind of meditation is more in line with modern practice than it is with the predictive nature of traditional. If someone wants to know what their chart says about what kind of career they're inclined toward or how likely it is that they'll get married, mythology isn't much of a factor.

There's nothing wrong with being interested in mythology, but I disagree that not incorporating mythology into your delineations necessitates that you're reading the chart in a "workman" like manner. Traditional astrology is rife with analogies and metaphors that have nothing to do with mythology. Factors mean things because of metaphorical similarities that they have to other things. Even Ptolemy's physical language is very vivid , giving the planets and signs a richness that rivals what one would get from mythology. His language is distinctly agricultural, rich and down to earth but also very practical. Astrology is by its very nature a system of analogies.

You can start asking why questions without resorting to mythology. It's very bold of you to assume that investigating mythology is the only way that people can be reflective about their astrology. Ptolemy chose to ask these questions by resorting to Aristotle's physics. Ibn Ezra asked those questions by combining Ptolemy's stuff with astronomical factors. The writer(s) of the Picatrix chose Neoplatonism. Mythology is just another way of doing the same thing, but not the only way and at times not even the best way.

There's nothing wrong with liking mythology, but I don't think that it's the bread and butter of astrology. There are tons of other analogies and metaphors that one might find useful for different purposes. If you're aim is more one of introspection then mythology is probably going to be great, hence why it's so popular in psychological astrology. If your aim however is prediction and the analysis of concrete events (past, present, or future) then mythology might only obscure things when more concrete language is necessary.

Last edited by sworm09; 03-22-2020 at 02:08 PM.
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Unread 03-22-2020, 02:50 PM
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Re: How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.
Without having to reduce Astrological predictions to workmanlike manner job, you must first understand that mythology doesn't deal with human world. Astrology does. There has always been clear distinction between the world of Gods and World of humans.

You cannot predict the Gods life and their fortunes. Astrology is about to predict human life in human world.

Your correlations Mercury is to do with lies and deceits and Mars is for Solders, and Saturn for elderly, are just too limited way of viewing Astrology and predictions in general. You must take off the sunglass you are wearing, and stop telling the world is grey or brown, because no one will believe you.
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Last edited by Senecar; 03-22-2020 at 02:53 PM.
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