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  #1  
Unread 01-12-2015, 09:37 AM
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Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Hi there,

I am curious about the potential development of power one has with natal pluto in the 12th house.

I find having pluto in this house natally makes it difficult for me to find my power. I am absolutely hopeless when it comes to power plays and I am forever asking for advice in that area.

When it comes to progressed planets, at least the faster moving planets like the sun can progress into the first house later in life. However pluto doesn't move much at all.

Because of this, pluto remains in the 12th house.

Does this mean that the native will forever carry the pain of not consciously discovering their power?

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Unread 01-14-2015, 07:53 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

You could look upon the 12th house as 'the cupboard under the stairs', where you don't actually throw anything away but keep it locked away. Then there comes a time when you might just have necessity of something in the cupboard and you find it, even if it means sorting through a lot of stuff you might have done better to discard y-e-a-r-s ago.
Rather like a 'lost' and 'found' department.

12th house energy is only difficult if you, yourself, make it so.

You write,
Quote:
'I find having pluto in this house natally makes it difficult for me to find my power. I am absolutely hopeless when it comes to power plays and I am forever asking for advice in that area'
.

This actually reads as if you are already aware of a trait you see as weakness that needs to be turned into a strength. Somewhere within you, that power of will is beginning to show that it is there.

Quote:
When it comes to progressed planets, at least the faster moving planets like the sun can progress into the first house later in life. However pluto doesn't move much at all.

Because of this, pluto remains in the 12th house.
Yet natal Pluto, itself, will be activated by transits and/or progressions
through which circumstances will arise where this necessity for change will stir, and hopefully emerge.
Natal Pluto may remain in the 12th house, yet its own transits through life will also have an impact upon its effects. It's often the harsh aspects that have the most effect.

Just think of the caterpillar emerging from the catalyst to become the butterfly. The 'release' from its cocoon doesn't just happen; it takes some energy of will on the butterfly's part as well.

An active change from Moon towards Sun direction can help as well.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 03:13 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Oh wow,

As usual Frisiangal, you always give me such good advice. So you really do believe with pluto 12th house placement one can access her powers? I gotta say I really am trying hard. I hope I can find my powers, whatever they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
An active change from Moon towards Sun direction can help as well.
What does this mean.

Oh and I just want to say re that other thread of mine about weight loss. You gave me some advice re Lilith. Guess what. I lost the 10kilos!!. Pretty stoked.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 03:23 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

I was just looking at what you wrote re harsh transits to pluto have the strongest effects. My vertex is in opposition to pluto in the 6th house. Uranus will conjunct the vertex soon. I take it this transit will strengthen my powers for change? And then there's that lovely Lilith in 4th house sextiles vertex and trine pluto. - you've already told me this is good for change with the family.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 10:15 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
Oh wow,

As usual Frisiangal, you always give me such good advice. So you really do believe with pluto 12th house placement one can access her powers? I gotta say I really am trying hard. I hope I can find my powers, whatever they are.


Oh and I just want to say re that other thread of mine about weight loss. You gave me some advice re Lilith. Guess what. I lost the 10kilos!!. Pretty stoked.
I have to admit that I didn't know who I was replying to as I never look back to anything previously written by a poster that could influence a reply.
It's no reflection upon you, I assure you.
I can appreciate how delighted you must be at the weight loss. YOU did it yourself. Good for you.
I wish I was more successful at practising what I preach..

Quote:
Quote:
An active change from Moon towards Sun direction can help as well
What does this mean.
It's a personal observation that all natal planets can come under the influence of the Moon's reactional response towards others even if there is no aspect to it. E.g. When a transit/progressed planet activates another. Simply said, Pluto can be the 'control and manipulation FROM others' which can affect an individual until the Sun (and sign) take over and 'controlling will power' becomes an active part of one's self.
It doesn't have to be an 'either/or'; just a combination of both.....which should not be too difficult for a Libra Sun when thinking in terms of you, me and we.

Last edited by Frisiangal; 01-15-2015 at 10:17 AM.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 11:28 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

What is your definition of "power"?

Let's imagine that the planets from Saturn outwards show how the personality can cope with what is beyond its control. and Pluto, I think, is a force as alien as it can be. I think that people with Pluto prominent in their chart are either overwhelmed by something greater than they are (and become chess pieces moved by invisible hands) or spend their life resisting /negotiating with this power. Pluto is not something you can have, it is something that can have you.

Think of trauma. Some people come to cope with it, through a lot of pain and suffering, while others stay in its grip forever. Think of mass hysteria. Some are overpowered by it while others are able to step or run away. Think of Jonah in the Bible. Not sure he was grateful for God's personal attention. Think of shamans, why do they resist their calling with all their might until they are utterly crushed and break down (aka shamanic illness)? etc.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 11:39 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

The 'unconscious' is vast

As time passes one gains consciousness of certain factors
however
the 'unconscious' by its very nature is not easily accessed






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Unread 01-15-2015, 06:27 PM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therese View Post
What is your definition of "power"?

Let's imagine that the planets from Saturn outwards show how the personality can cope with what is beyond its control. and Pluto, I think, is a force as alien as it can be. I think that people with Pluto prominent in their chart are either overwhelmed by something greater than they are (and become chess pieces moved by invisible hands) or spend their life resisting /negotiating with this power. Pluto is not something you can have, it is something that can have you.

Think of trauma. Some people come to cope with it, through a lot of pain and suffering, while others stay in its grip forever. Think of mass hysteria. Some are overpowered by it while others are able to step or run away.
I cannot entirely agree with this view. Those who have a prominent Pluto can be(come) aware of their own power of will by the positive/negative experiences they undergo. And it isn't only as 'part of the generational collective' to overcome forces greater than one's self.

There are so many people who have strong Pluto's to personal planets in their charts in only positive aspect. Pluto in Leo is a force to be reckoned with for others, Pluto in Virgo can be compulsively irritating towards and for another, Pluto in Libra can be so socially charmingly that 'the other' doesn't even recognise that they are being manipulated. And let's not even consider 'the life/death survival' of a Pluto in its ruling sign or 'the overwhelming/overpowering culture thing' of Pluto in Sagittarius in the younger generations of today.

It is too easy to repress what Pluto represents in one's self, yet it is more a hinderance than a help in doing so. A show of personal willpower in overcoming negative influences can turn one's life around and give it new meaning.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 10:54 PM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
It's a personal observation that all natal planets can come under the influence of the Moon's reactional response towards others even if there is no aspect to it. E.g. When a transit/progressed planet activates another. Simply said, Pluto can be the 'control and manipulation FROM others' which can affect an individual until the Sun (and sign) take over and 'controlling will power' becomes an active part of one's self.
It doesn't have to be an 'either/or'; just a combination of both.....which should not be too difficult for a Libra Sun when thinking in terms of you, me and we.
So just so I understand this correctly, you're saying that when engaged in power struggles I need to take on strength of the sun (which is in 12th house) and take on some of those power control qualities that I see in others.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 11:05 PM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Well all I have to say is my power plays come from women mainly in the family sphere. They are always in the more powerful position and get their way as a result and my needs are never met. Atm and for the rest of my life im in a situation where my MIL is in the highest power. Not only that, I always knew she was in some way mental. My husband just told me yesterday she is a Psychopath and the family members try to keep the peace. So with out exaggerating. This woman is Stalin. Very scary situation because she is so crazy, if she doesn't get her way she does something cleverly sadistic. And I think her family members don't want to believe she can do such things. Eg recently I had Child protection agency calling me up claiming 'someone' said im ABUSING and NEGLECTING my children. NOT TRUE OF COURSE. But she is that crazy she will do anything to have my kids. My husband doesn't believe me. And so she wins again. I seem to have the karma even in the past, and im sure in the future, where other crazy, mental women win over me. It's kind of like im painfully witnessing Stalin take the lead in this family, and it doesn't matter what I do I cant gain my power. Even horaries have told me things wont change. This is my karma.
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Unread 01-16-2015, 07:23 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Quote:
I cannot entirely agree with this view.
Good, otherwise what's the point in a forum, ?

Quote:
Pluto in Libra can be so socially charmingly that 'the other' doesn't even recognise that they are being manipulated.
don't think you can pick a slogen for a planet in a certain sign. Signs encompass a whole range of energies and experiences, from this to that, from destructive to constructive, etc, and the planets in those signs can also operate in all kinds of ways and on all kinds of levels. More than a billion people were born betwen 1972 and 1984, with Pluto in Libra, they can't all be "socially charming"... what about those born with autism, for example?

Quote:
Those who have a prominent Pluto can be(come) aware of their own power of will by the positive/negative experiences they undergo.
didn't mean we cannot grow in consciousness or that we are merely leaves in the wind, what I meant is that I don't think it is Pluto that symbolizes the kind of power the OP and you are referring to, that's why I asked her to define what she means by "power".

I'd say that willpower, self-assertiveness, etc are the domain of personal planets, especially the Sun and Mars, not Pluto. Pluto can aspect personal planets, and the individual will deal with that in their own, individual way. Pluto is like a force of nature. Imagine yourself in a boat in the middle of a raging sea. That's a Plutonic experience. You don't overcome the sea. But it is possible that you survive. How you come out of that experience when it is over, whether you are forever afraid of the water or you celebrate yourself as a survivor and/or become an extreme sports junkie, or anything within an infinite range of reactions - that's something that depends on the whole chart.
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Unread 01-16-2015, 10:58 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
A show of personal willpower in overcoming negative influences can turn one's life around and give it new meaning.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this? Eg when you say overcoming negative experiences, do you mean putting up with the negative influences, or by learning how those ppl had power over you, or by persisting and fighting for that power. I have to admit during my hard pluto aspects, I ALWAYS experienced other unfair, stupid people win and have power over me and not be in any power myself. I can look back and still see I had no ability for power. That to me was my lesson. That I wont always be in power and I cant always win and life isn't necessarily fair.

Eg. when I was 13, my dad started seeing a woman who told him it's me or your kids. He agreed on her and I didn't see him or get to speak to him for 9 years. She won him over with sex and ultimatums. If I wanted to, I could say I learnt from that, but no, because now that im with my husband, none of that works with him, he's not that stupid and he cant be won over by sex . So I didn't really learn anything from it other than she won.
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Unread 01-16-2015, 11:10 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

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Originally Posted by Therese View Post
Good, otherwise what's the point in a forum, ?

don't think you can pick a slogen for a planet in a certain sign. Signs encompass a whole range of energies and experiences, from this to that, from destructive to constructive, etc, and the planets in those signs can also operate in all kinds of ways and on all kinds of levels. More than a billion people were born betwen 1972 and 1984, with Pluto in Libra, they can't all be "socially charming"... what about those born with autism, for example?

didn't mean we cannot grow in consciousness or that we are merely leaves in the wind, what I meant is that I don't think it is Pluto that symbolizes the kind of power the OP and you are referring to, that's why I asked her to define what she means by "power".

I'd say that willpower, self-assertiveness, etc are the domain of personal planets, especially the Sun and Mars, not Pluto. Pluto can aspect personal planets, and the individual will deal with that in their own, individual way. Pluto is like a force of nature. Imagine yourself in a boat in the middle of a raging sea. That's a Plutonic experience. You don't overcome the sea. But it is possible that you survive. How you come out of that experience when it is over, whether you are forever afraid of the water or you celebrate yourself as a survivor and/or become an extreme sports junkie, or anything within an infinite range of reactions - that's something that depends on the whole chart.
Ok Therese, so what you're saying towards the end there is that during plutonic experiences, hardship will come, but it's up to me to decide whether I will see it in a positive wave or negative wave? I personally see hard pluto aspects as a no win situation time and I guess I can just look back and see it for what it was, as frustrating as that is. With pluto in libra I found my situations to be highly unfair.
As for my definition of power, it's not the assertiveness mars type that can be strengthened or control. All of my situations have favoured the other woman and I don't have what is required to win the situation - the other woman does, and she laughs in my face at the same time. Im amazed that humans can be this cruel because I would never do such a thing, ever. Yet so many people are. As a result, the only way 'I' come out of my harsh pluto experiences is I look back and see just how messed up so many people are and I realise how easy it is for the world to fall apart. That's about it.

Last edited by Abby83; 01-16-2015 at 11:22 AM.
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Unread 01-16-2015, 03:49 PM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Abby, what I am saying is that it depends on our personality and psychological resources (not merely our will) how we cope with Plutonic experiences and what form they take in our life. My traumas, fears and challenges are not yours and vice versa. It is through ourselves that we make sense of the world around us.

For example, another person going through what you have, might not have made the other woman so powerful. they could have blamed it all on the father, saying that the woman could have been anybody, if he hadn't gone with her, he would have gone with the next one, if it was not her controlling him, it would have been the next one, etc, and it was all because of the father's weakness of character, lack of responsibility, whatsover. they might have ended up considering all men untrustworthy, weak, despicable, etc.

I had a classmate in middle school. Her father left them for another woman. She took her father's side, who blamed her mother who "couldn't understand him", etc. She wanted to live with her father, who wouldn't have her, they were having a baby with the new girlfriend and he was worried she would mess up his new life. This girl (11 or 12) decided that the problem was that the girlfriend didn't know her, so she found a way to meet the girlfriend behind her parents' back. It turned out well, and my classmate ended up spending quite a lot of time at their place.

The list of possibilities is endless.
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Unread 01-17-2015, 03:09 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Yes Therese, the list of possibilities are endless. I too have perceived my father in this way. The only difference is he chose a woman who hated my existence so much she wanted to kill me. I tried to warm our relationship but SHE was the one who couldn't do it. In my opinion, either way, I was not safe no matter what situation or way I looked at things. So that was my pluto experience. I could only do my best to look after myself alone. - (12th house pluto).
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Unread 01-17-2015, 08:36 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Frisiangal
It's a personal observation that all natal planets can come under the influence of the Moon's reactional response towards others even if there is no aspect to it. E.g. When a transit/progressed planet activates another. Simply said, Pluto can be the 'control and manipulation FROM others' which can affect an individual until the Sun (and sign) take over and 'controlling will power' becomes an active part of one's self.
It doesn't have to be an 'either/or'; just a combination of both.....which should not be too difficult for a Libra Sun when thinking in terms of you, me and we

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
So just so I understand this correctly, you're saying that when engaged in power struggles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
I need to take on strength of the sun (which is in 12th house) and take on some of those power control qualities that I see in others.
I would say 'yes' to this,
and 'no' to this.

You are YOU, not somebody else who has their own 'power' issues to contend with. Yet seeing how they use their power and its effect upon you can (eventually) help you strengthen your own.
What Libra has is the ability to see both sides of a situation. Simply as examples only:
Using the situation with your dad. You did not like what he did, yet there could be some part within you that is able to perceive the situation from his side and/or why he made the choice he did, even if you didn't agree with it.
You may not like the power of your MIL over others, yet some part of you may well understand why she does it.
Other signs don't have that particular manner of reasoning ability. They possess other 'tactics'. Libra sees and can make decisions based upon the choices open to them.
Scorpio, modern ruler Pluto, goes that bit further in experiencing the effect of others, and doing something about it.....or not.

Quote:
Quote:
Frisiangal
A show of personal willpower in overcoming negative influences can turn one's life around and give it new meaning.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this? Eg when you say overcoming negative experiences, do you mean putting up with the negative influences, or by learning how those ppl had power over you.
That would be my perspective.

Negative Pluto effects can come from one person's effects upon another when, as said before, the Moon (emotional response to outer situations) is stronger. Yet there can come a time when a person says ‘It’over; never again’: A total finality of what went before that affected them so and, especially their way of life, that they will no longer be subject to its forces. That will to overcome and survive becomes their force. Just think of the life-death situations people can undergo and how the experience entirely alters their view of life. In my humble opinion, it's more and goes way beyond any Mars, Jupiter and/or Saturn influence.

It is just my take and I have always endeavoured to bring over the positive side of all astrological symbolism, even when aspects appear to be viewed other than that.


Last edited by Frisiangal; 01-17-2015 at 08:40 AM. Reason: attempt to change quotes!!!
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Unread 01-17-2015, 09:58 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

[QUOTE=Frisiangal;596345]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal
It's a personal observation that all natal planets can come under the influence of the Moon's reactional response towards others even if there is no aspect to it. E.g. When a transit/progressed planet activates another. Simply said, Pluto can be the 'control and manipulation FROM others' which can affect an individual until the Sun (and sign) take over and 'controlling will power' becomes an active part of one's self.
It doesn't have to be an 'either/or'; just a combination of both.....which should not be too difficult for a Libra Sun when thinking in terms of you, me and we

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

I would say 'yes' to this,
and 'no' to this.

You are YOU, not somebody else who has their own 'power' issues to contend with. Yet seeing how they use their power and its effect upon you can (eventually) help you strengthen your own.
What Libra has is the ability to see both sides of a situation. Simply as examples only:
Using the situation with your dad. You did not like what he did, yet there could be some part within you that is able to perceive the situation from his side and/or why he made the choice he did, even if you didn't agree with it.
You may not like the power of your MIL over others, yet some part of you may well understand why she does it.
Other signs don't have that particular manner of reasoning ability. They possess other 'tactics'. Libra sees and can make decisions based upon the choices open to them.
Scorpio, modern ruler Pluto, goes that bit further in experiencing the effect of others, and doing something about it.....or not.

That would be my perspective.

Negative Pluto effects can come from one person's effects upon another when, as said before, the Moon (emotional response to outer situations) is stronger. Yet there can come a time when a person says ‘It’over; never again’: A total finality of what went before that affected them so and, especially their way of life, that they will no longer be subject to its forces. That will to overcome and survive becomes their force. Just think of the life-death situations people can undergo and how the experience entirely alters their view of life. In my humble opinion, it's more and goes way beyond any Mars, Jupiter and/or Saturn influence.

It is just my take and I have always endeavoured to bring over the positive side of all astrological symbolism, even when aspects appear to be viewed other than that.

Hmmm, I can see you have a positive look on this. But I have to say that even if I say 'No, I refuse to let this happen to me ever again.' It does happen, because it's other people who do it to me, who are in a more powerful position, and it is always a crazy woman and a soft puppy dog man that is involved. As you said, I have the power with the libra sign to see both sides, but it doesn't make life any easier or change the consequences.

I just want to elaborate on what you say about finality. I wish it were that easy. With the in laws, I wish I could just say to my husband 'Hey they are not treating me right, they're telling people made up stories about me abusing my kids so that other family members are angry and then take my kids from me and side with MIL, you (husband) lied to me re traditions and religion and expectations with children prior to marriage, your parents snatch my children from me and ignore me and insult me when im around (and so on and so on), so I see it as poisonous for our children to be in that environment where im disrespected, and decisions are being made about my children without my consent, and my children are being told by in laws that I am a bad mother. I am no longer allowing the in laws to see the children until they learn how to treat me better. They are a bad influence and are ruining our parent to child relationship and they are ruining our marriage also." ----- I wish that this statement could have it's FINALITY effects. But you know what happens? Unfairness. My husband sides with his mum, as he always does (mainly because he knows she is mentally unstable, and it is difficult for him to see his mother in this way). He allows her to continue to add poison to our lives with no consequence. My words mean nothing because of that. And the whole family just laugh in my face, and the children learn from that.

The only transformation I feel is feeling sorry for everyone the MIL touches. She ruins the lives of all she touches, because she is a psycho, dangerous, and therefore ppl allow her to win because they know the punishment from her will be too clever and emotionally torturous. All I feel is sorry for her for being so mental, and I feel sorry for all of us people who are in her life. She truly brings death to all beings.

Last edited by Abby83; 01-17-2015 at 10:19 AM.
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Unread 01-17-2015, 10:34 AM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

Just going back on what you said about using strength of sun, this makes sense because during the difficult pluto transits I found that I had to become fully self absorbed to boost my ego enough to give me the confidence to deal with it. Because as soon as I had the smallest bit of doubt about myself, people causing the trouble would play on that and bring me and my status down like a torpedo. 12th house cusp is libra so it also fits in well with that other thread we discussed about my weight loss. Instead of sabotaging myself in relation to family pressures, I delved in, focused totally on myself, my ego, my confidence, and won with that.
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Unread 02-22-2015, 06:41 PM
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Re: Will unconscious power ever become conscious

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Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
Ok Therese, so what you're saying towards the end there is that during plutonic experiences, hardship will come, but it's up to me to decide whether I will see it in a positive wave or negative wave? I personally see hard pluto aspects as a no win situation time and I guess I can just look back and see it for what it was, as frustrating as that is. With pluto in libra I found my situations to be highly unfair.
It is always up to you how you choose to interpret your experiences. What you appear to be struggling with is deciding upon a course of action (self-assertive) so as not to become overwhelmed by the actions taken by another. You describe your MIL as Stalin, a tyrannical mass-murdering despot, who abuses all around her. Abusers need others to play the role of victim, which you have demonstrated to her that you are willing to play that role. In order for balance of power to be restored in that relationship - which in this case is between different generations, you need to make it clear to her who you are (Sun) through your actions (Mars) and communication (Mercury). Own your strengths and display them for there is energy in such display that will not go unnoticed. She might challenge it, but she will notice it. If you do not do this she will continue to walk all over you.

edit: just saw your final post (sry, should've read further before replying)...seems you've already made the adjustments you needed to make. Bravo
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Last edited by Etchasketch; 02-22-2015 at 06:45 PM. Reason: additional comment required
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