Trying to Understand Squares

Osamenor

Staff member
I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.

So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?

Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Delineate Venus, by herself....sign, house, motion, position relative to Sun...and condition of its ruler. Also examine the aspects she beholds, other than her square to Moon, and see how they affect her behavior.
Do the same for the Moon.

Now, rather than vague and generalized astrological symbols you can deal with actual personality traits that pertain exclusively to you. Now study the square between Moon and Venus. And keep in mind that we must always take the whole chart into consideration; nothing stands alone.

Venus is the Power of Appreciation. She rules our personal values, which determine what we are attracted toward and/or find repellant. All planets have the capacity to exhibit two faces.

In your chart Venus is "in her Fall" (Virgo, sign opposing Pisces, the Exaltation of Venus. Look up the word "fall" in your dictionary. It will explain the fundamental nature of this condition.). She is also in the Eighth House, one of the three principal "houses of misfortune" (add Sixth and Twelfth). She is thus, before looking at any other factors, doubly afflicted. These two primary conditions of Venus in your chart will provide a wealth of information about the individualized nature of Venus (appreciation and therefore personal values, which determine what/who we are attracted to -- the connections we are drawn toward [as well as what you tend to avoid, are repelled by]. The planet of "harmony" can just as easily be the lady of "disharmony". Which prevails depends on the conditioning of Venus -- every chart factor that affects her. Beauty can become ugliness -- Venus holds the potential for either or both.

Moon is in the unfortunate Twelfth. (The two planets are square by sign but not by house). So, both of these planets, which happen to be in square aspect, are found in houses that cause difficulty, sadness.

Virgo and Sagittarius are Common signs. They are in natural square to each other. Therefore, study the Qualities (or at least the Common or Mutable Quality). Both Moon and Venus operate primarily by "adapting the self to meet changing conditions" -- they are flexible, responsive to the momentary, They are concerned with social relationships and your place or function within them. But each of these signs does this in very different ways, hence the blockage, obstruction, delay and difficulty of the square aspect. The Qualities (Modes) in astrology operate on the external plane fundamentally.

I wonder what this "stellium" looks like. Is it really a stellium? The "old" (tried and true) definition of a stellium is "Four or more planets in one sign (or house), at least two of which are not Sun, Mercury or Venus." Stellium by sign is much more potent than stellium by house alone because of the special emphsis put on Quality and Element. The stricture on Sun, Mercury and Venus is in place because these planets are constant companions often found together. What we are looking for when we designate a stellium is "execptional emphasis" to such degree as to become an overpowering force in the personality.
 

ukdesifem

Well-known member
Well all planets, asteroids and fixed stars are supposed to represent facets of our personality, character, strengths, weaknesses and abilities.

So a square is in a way "worse" than an opposition, but then it merely represents a challenge a native can overcome in his or her lifetime. Whilst it is bad, it still like all things in life is something to learn from and surmount.

Even trines and conjunctions between benefic planets (say Sun/Venus or Moon/Uranus) have negative parts to them. Nothing in life is wholly good or wholly bad, depends on the scenario and to some degree how we interpret it.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
So a square is in a way "worse" than an opposition, but then it merely represents a challenge a native can overcome in his or her lifetime. Whilst it is bad, it still like all things in life is something to learn from and surmount.

IMO, you can work through a square by just trying harder. You see it coming, you know what youare up against.

With an opposition, you generally can't see it at all unless its part of a T-Square(or you either are an astrologer or you employ one). Most people don't solve their oppositions until mid life and often not at all. This is why they call it push-pull: the assumption is that you can't solve it, you just go back and forth.

And if they do work on it, and they do find exactly what it is, and where it is, they cannot simply work harder. IMO, oppositions require a change of consciousness, you have to change how you think about the circumstance of the opposition. The push-pull part comes from people trying to solve oppositions by pushing harder. That simply won't work; no matter how hard you push it, it pushes back with the same power you pushed into it.

Oppositions have no silver bullet solutions. They are always complicated solutions to complicated problems.

IMO, a less powerful-less high friction opposition trumps a square any day. I'd much rather have to deal with squares than oppositions.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Okay... I got several different answers, and I don't think I'm really any closer to understanding squares. Please keep in mind, I'm an astrology learner, and what I'm learning is choice-centered, evolutionary astrology. If you have a traditional astrology perspective, it's even harder for me to understand because it's a dialect of the astrology language that I don't speak.

@greybeard: the definition of stellium that I was taught is three or more planets, which can include the sun and/or moon, in the same sign or the same house. Obviously, there's another definition, and no, by that definition, it's not a stellium. However, it looks like that's just a question of semantics. Even if we don't call my sun/Mercury/Venus combination a stellium, it still gives me some concentration of energies in the eighth house, and even if we do call it a stellium, it's not as strong a concentration as it would be if I had additional planets in that eighth house. So either way, we're getting at the same thing.

But the questions I posted here to ask are about squares. Maybe it would be simpler to break it down this way:

1. How can planets be at cross purposes if their whats are quite compatible? How would a square between them make their whats incompatible?

and

2. If there's a square between a sign and its native house, how does that put them at cross purposes? Maybe my sun/north nodes square isn't a such a good example, so for simplicity's sake, I'll make it a theoretical question: if there's a square between a planet in Scorpio and a planet in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio, what does that really do? Eighth house and Scorpio should have a compatible message, shouldn't they? But if they're squared, what does that do? Does it make the parts of the psyche that they rule in conflict in some way?

I used my own birth chart as an example because that's what I've been working with, but I'm not asking for interpretations of my chart specifically. If any of you can think of examples from your own birth chart, or some other chart that you've seen, or even a good hypothetical example, that would be very helpful, too. For that matter, on the question about squares between signs and their native houses, it could be any square involving any sign and its native house.

There's also more I'd like to ask about squares, but this is a complex enough question already, so I'll leave it there for now.
 
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Inquirer

Member
I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.

So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?

Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!

This is probably completely unrelated to what you are asking, but I'm having a slight problem with squares as well but for reasons concerning orbs. I swear if I see another website that gives squares only 8 degrees of an orb I am going to scream.

Why not 10 degrees? Even better 10 degrees for all major aspects, 6 degrees for sextiles and there you have it. Because I've seen influences of a grand trine with very weak orbs even with the ascendant involved. So why would squares be any different? It's a small thing but there are instances where I was able to feel squares at wider orb much stronger than squares at a tighter orb.
 

Kannon

Well-known member
I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.

The square is driving in nature and it doesn't let up. However, I see nothing in the dynamic of the aspect's geometry that necessitates "Cross purposes ... can't see eye-to-eye, no matter what..."

If you choose to look at squares as "at cross purposes ... no matter what" then there is no resolution. That is contrary to purpose and free will within astrology.

Instead look for what positive result can be created. Interpret all aspects, including squares, by what the two planets have in common. This is fundamental aspect interpretation (my method).

So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?

Well done. You've already gotten ahead of the curve in aspect interpretation.

Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!

I think you are doing fine as evidenced by your above reasoning. Just keep learning. I think you've got a real head for astrology
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I'm an astrology learner, just starting to familiarize myself with aspects. Right now, I'm stumbling over the meaning of squares and looking for clarification.

From what I've read (the main source I'm using right now is Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky"), a square between two planets means they're at cross purposes and just can't see eye to eye, no matter what. Oppositions have room for compromise, but squares do not. A square requires a strong response to each bit to keep one from completely overshadowing the other.

So far, so good. But then I look at my own birth chart, and do all the squares in it completely disagree?

First off, I have an eighth house Virgo Venus square a twelfth house Sagittarian moon. So if Venus and the moon are square, they must be at cross purposes. But I would think the "what" of Venus and the "what" of the moon are quite compatible. Venus has to do with connections, harmony, beauty, and the moon has to do with emotions and with what speaks to your deepest soul. At least, that's how I understand it, or am I missing something? Both of them have a "what" related to emotions, so how can they be at completely cross purposes?

Furthermore, Venus is in stellium (though not conjunction) with my Leo sun, which trines the moon. So the sun's and moon's energies and purposes team up. Meanwhile, the sun's goal, development of personality, is in some way furthered by Venus, which lives in the same house... and yet Venus is at cross purposes with the moon? How does that work?

And then I have the sun square to the north nodes, which are in Scorpio. Yet my sun is in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio. So I would think there would be some affinity there. (Do squares to the north nodes follow the same rules as squares to planets, or are there some different meanings there? Perhaps that's a subject for another thread.)

I would love input from more experienced astrologers on this!
'.....The tense aspects cause friction between the planets involved.
This friction brings difficulties and problems,
which may be psychological, environmental or a combination of the two.
In coping with these problems many people experience failure,
but some will be driven to overcome their difficulties
and in the process develop their astrological potential.....'


Square is strong,
but less powerful than opposition,
and creates friction between planets
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects2.html :smile:
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Square (Quadrate) The square is the most dynamically active or energetic of the aspects and tends toward obstruction and disruption. It brings reaction, struggle, and when its challenges are well-met, success. It shows the effort or struggle needed for survival in the general scheme of living, with its risks. In the natal chart, squares show the manner in which the native builds up the peaks of his consciousness, from moments of ecstatic self-fulfillment to agonizing over the state of his being, or inner conflicts, as well as frustrations in the matter of the self’s skills, abilities and personal resources in the course of meeting the problems of life. While the opposition and trine aspects are basically indicators of a general equilibrium or dynamic stasis in living, the square shows the disruption of equilibriums as man acts in the context of the immediate demands of life. From the external perspective these acts are simultaneously seen as rebellion and accomplishment, and have an equal possibility of ending up as either frustration or fulfillment. The aspect indicates the mechanisms of tension and release that lead to self-realization or to the frustration of self-fulfillment. The native’s attempts at self-expression, at building the ego-constructs, at fulfilling desires is blocked and thwarted. The difference between what one wants and what one has, or between what one is and what surrounds him is felt acutely. The aspect reflects the practical considerations of everyday experience. It shows the psychological relationship between two energies that work at cross-purposes, seen in the Elements involved in the aspect. It operates independently, individualistically and self-assertively. Its mode of action is abrupt and creates discomfort, which spurs the native to action of the sort indicated by the Quality in which the square occurs. This aspect has the characteristics of a crossroad, where collisions often occur or progress is blocked by traffic, where a turning point is reached and a choice of direction must be made.
 

Salme

Active member
Hello.
I have Moon in Taurus in the 10th house square Venus in Aquarius in the 6th. Venus also conjuncts my South node and opposes the North node.

I guess in my case all these aspects are lived through as a huge rivalry with women or other feminine figures who tend to be jealous about my beauty. I mean not just looks, but the ability to arrange things in a nice way. Nicely combined colors in clothes or nice selection of wall paper for the house, well arranged dinner or flowers planted by the house. Also people who are involved into art. Also contradiction art/family matters.

When I was a kid, me and my Mother didn't live together with my Dad. When I learnt writing I wrote a fairy tale and she sent it to him. And he made very sarcastic comments about it - saying it's too grammatically correct for a kid -- meaning my Mom wrote it for me to attract his attention. Which was 88% so. Noone cared about the tale itself, the pure expression... they were into their points and neglected my small peace of art.
When I was a teenager I painted a small water color miniature and used it as a bookmark. I took this book to a small journey with other kids. When they were running around they dropped my book, stepped on the painting with wet feet and it was completely ruined.
When I went to cinema institute someone threw out a box with my course movie made by hand out of pieces of used film. I don't know - was it done on purpose but looks like - people were just cleaning shelves in the room.
I hand painted the wall in my Mother in law's kitchen, but after sometime she removed it motivating she had a bad dream about it.
My husband is a 3d artist and he is jealous about my photos, drawings or any attempt to start a career in some artistic field.
My always makes derogatory comments about my looks especially when she drinks a glass of wine on gets in an other way relaxed. She does her best to undermine my self esteem in general. She doesn't only desencourages my artistic projects, but even when we talk about regular works - she does her best to pursuade me I am no good for the amount of salary I am offered.
My family basically sees me only as a modest housewife who should always be there for their needs.
But not only family. My profile on facebook contains millions of my artistic photos, sketches, my own nice pictures. I put it all there to get noticed by my friends many of whom work in fashion industry, magazines, are photographs. But noone notices. On the contrary I regulary -- really regularly receive requests --- would you promote my music\painting\photography? would you lend me some money
etcetcetc

I wouldn't say it was like that all the time. I got some esteem myself. I worked in a fashion magazine as an editor and retailing company as a fashion market analyst, travelled a lot, waled as a model for friend's fashion show, modelled for a fashion shooting. But it never started out into a carreer. Also things hugely changed when I gave birth to my second child. Everyone only sees my mother side or - the Moon, say people want me to be supportive of their (especially) beauty projects, but neglect my own talents, style and looks.

I guess the point is that i tried to make career (10 and 6 th houses) in the beauty field which brought too much rivalry into my life - both from men and women. But thinking back i guess there was not other choice, because the square ususally starts like trine - something pleasant and offering opportunities, but gives unexpected difficulty.

For ex my husband. We met at cinema school. His Mars and Venus conjunct my Moon, so we got a lot of understanding and many things and common and topics to discuss. It gave the illusion that we can be supportive to each other in the work, make projects together. But whenever we start doing something together or even living closely - the different vision, different ideals, jealousy - becomes evident.

Sorry for such long reply. Just my sore spot.:crying:
 

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Zarathu

Account Closed
Hypotheticals don't really work in understanding astrology. Its too complicated.

To go further the OP is going to have to post his/her chart.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
For ex my husband. We met at cinema school. His Mars and Venus conjunct my Moon, so we got a lot of understanding and many things and common and topics to discuss.

This is a perfect reason why, without a look at both charts, without looking at a mini analysis of both charts and then a look at the synastry between houses and planet, & planets and planets, the simple example above doesn't describe the complexity of what humans are in the universe.

There are no silver bullets in astrology. Everything affects everything else on a completely non-linear way.
 

ukdesifem

Well-known member
IMO, you can work through a square by just trying harder. You see it coming, you know what youare up against.

With an opposition, you generally can't see it at all unless its part of a T-Square(or you either are an astrologer or you employ one). Most people don't solve their oppositions until mid life and often not at all. This is why they call it push-pull: the assumption is that you can't solve it, you just go back and forth.

And if they do work on it, and they do find exactly what it is, and where it is, they cannot simply work harder. IMO, oppositions require a change of consciousness, you have to change how you think about the circumstance of the opposition. The push-pull part comes from people trying to solve oppositions by pushing harder. That simply won't work; no matter how hard you push it, it pushes back with the same power you pushed into it.

Oppositions have no silver bullet solutions. They are always complicated solutions to complicated problems.

IMO, a less powerful-less high friction opposition trumps a square any day. I'd much rather have to deal with squares than oppositions.

this is true. Though I'd say still no "bad" aspect is doom and gloom.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
I have lots of squares in my natal chart, involving Sun, Moon, Mars and Saturn. If I were to boil down the feeling of the square to few words, I would say that it has a sense of ambush to it, matters that come up behind you and grab you by the neck before you can see them. Or like rounding a corner at the same time something is coming at you.

There is an abruptness to it.

But after a long life I can tell you that, at least for me, it never ever really felt like gloom and doom. Perhaps because of signs and house placements involved, along with other aspects to these planets?

It is helpful to remember that there is much in everyone's chart, along with their squares.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
The square is driving in nature and it doesn't let up. However, I see nothing in the dynamic of the aspect's geometry that necessitates "Cross purposes ... can't see eye-to-eye, no matter what..."

If you choose to look at squares as "at cross purposes ... no matter what" then there is no resolution. That is contrary to purpose and free will within astrology.
The book I got that from is from a free will astrology perspective. Maybe I didn't paraphrase that very well.

After going back and reading and thinking on it some more (and I read and thought over all these posts in the last couple days, though I didn't have a chance to respond til now) the word that stands out for me is friction. Squares create friction. In the physical world, what does friction create?

Sparks. Fire. Transformation. Wearing something down. Destroying something (in case of too much friction). Making something what it is.

Friction between a blade and a whetstone sharpens the blade and wears the stone smoother. It eats away particles from each and in doing so, makes each of those things more what it is. Sharper blade, smoother stone.

Is that what astrological squares do?

Forrest uses the analogy of predators and prey, which in nature, strengthen each other's species by weeding out the weak.

Instead look for what positive result can be created. Interpret all aspects, including squares, by what the two planets have in common. This is fundamental aspect interpretation (my method).
Of course positive results can be created, even from "negative" readings. So to use my Venus/Moon example, there's a friction between them, which makes each of them and its message and purpose more what it is?

I like what you say about starting with what the planets have in common. I just did that, and that's where I got confused.

So, to take things further and use some analogies from human relationships: in my chart, Venus and Mercury are a couple, Sun is their cordial roommate, and Moon is Sun's best friend--united in common endeavors--but doesn't get along so harmoniously with Sun's roommates. There's some friction between them, particularly between Moon and Venus, which keeps them on their toes whenever they're in contact with each other. (Which, of course, they always are, since these are symbols for parts of my own psyche).



Well done. You've already gotten ahead of the curve in aspect interpretation.



I think you are doing fine as evidenced by your above reasoning. Just keep learning. I think you've got a real head for astrology
Thanks for the kind words!
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I have lots of squares in my natal chart, involving Sun, Moon, Mars and Saturn. If I were to boil down the feeling of the square to few words, I would say that it has a sense of ambush to it, matters that come up behind you and grab you by the neck before you can see them. Or like rounding a corner at the same time something is coming at you.

There is an abruptness to it.
Interesting. Are there any specific examples of this that you would like to share? Chances are I've had something like that happen myself. Besides the Venus/Moon square, I also have a T-square in which Saturn squares Uranus, which is conjunct the MC, and Jupiter, which is conjunct the IC, and a square between Mercury, which is conjunct Venus, and Neptune, which is conjunct the Moon and also squares Venus, so a decent amount of squares for me as well.

Would you say that this sense of ambush comes from external situations, or from your own psyche? Or is it both?

But after a long life I can tell you that, at least for me, it never ever really felt like gloom and doom. Perhaps because of signs and house placements involved, along with other aspects to these planets?

It is helpful to remember that there is much in everyone's chart, along with their squares.
So these are issues that blindside you, but don't feel fated and don't make you feel helpless?
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Square (Quadrate) The square is the most dynamically active or energetic of the aspects and tends toward obstruction and disruption. It brings reaction, struggle, and when its challenges are well-met, success. It shows the effort or struggle needed for survival in the general scheme of living, with its risks.

In the natal chart, squares show the manner in which the native builds up the peaks of his consciousness, from moments of ecstatic self-fulfillment to agonizing over the state of his being, or inner conflicts, as well as frustrations in the matter of the self’s skills, abilities and personal resources in the course of meeting the problems of life.

While the opposition and trine aspects are basically indicators of a general equilibrium or dynamic stasis in living, the square shows the disruption of equilibriums as man acts in the context of the immediate demands of life.

From the external perspective these acts are simultaneously seen as rebellion and accomplishment, and have an equal possibility of ending up as either frustration or fulfillment. The aspect indicates the mechanisms of tension and release that lead to self-realization or to the frustration of self-fulfillment. The native’s attempts at self-expression, at building the ego-constructs, at fulfilling desires is blocked and thwarted.

The difference between what one wants and what one has, or between what one is and what surrounds him is felt acutely. The aspect reflects the practical considerations of everyday experience. It shows the psychological relationship between two energies that work at cross-purposes, seen in the Elements involved in the aspect. It operates independently, individualistically and self-assertively.

Its mode of action is abrupt and creates discomfort, which spurs the native to action of the sort indicated by the Quality in which the square occurs. This aspect has the characteristics of a crossroad, where collisions often occur or progress is blocked by traffic, where a turning point is reached and a choice of direction must be made.
Greybeard (and everyone), I had to copy this post and break it up to be able to get any clue what it said. I am completely and totally unable to read electronic text if it's in a block any longer than seven or eight lines. You posted this in a much longer block, without creating any spaces in it, and that made me unable to read any of it.

I was willing to do it this one time because I wanted to know what you had to say. But I need everyone to be considerate of the fact that not everyone can read without ample spaces between lines. It's much easier to make paragraph breaks every four or five sentences while writing a post than to have to try to fix it later. Usually, when I see something like that online, I don't even try to read it because it's so much trouble. So if you want any responses from me on these boards, please make posts I can read!

What I get from reading this post is that squares are disruptive, while trines and oppositions just feel like business as usual. Is that correct? But I thought an opposition was considered an unharmonious aspect. If it doesn't disrupt anything, how is it unharmonious?

That maybe a bit off the subject of squares, but since T-squares have been touched on by more than one of us, maybe oppositions are relevant here, too.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Hello.
I have Moon in Taurus in the 10th house square Venus in Aquarius in the 6th. Venus also conjuncts my South node and opposes the North node.

I guess in my case all these aspects are lived through as a huge rivalry with women or other feminine figures who tend to be jealous about my beauty. I mean not just looks, but the ability to arrange things in a nice way. Nicely combined colors in clothes or nice selection of wall paper for the house, well arranged dinner or flowers planted by the house. Also people who are involved into art. Also contradiction art/family matters.

When I was a kid, me and my Mother didn't live together with my Dad. When I learnt writing I wrote a fairy tale and she sent it to him. And he made very sarcastic comments about it - saying it's too grammatically correct for a kid -- meaning my Mom wrote it for me to attract his attention. Which was 88% so. Noone cared about the tale itself, the pure expression... they were into their points and neglected my small peace of art.


When I was a teenager I painted a small water color miniature and used it as a bookmark. I took this book to a small journey with other kids. When they were running around they dropped my book, stepped on the painting with wet feet and it was completely ruined.

When I went to cinema institute someone threw out a box with my course movie made by hand out of pieces of used film. I don't know - was it done on purpose but looks like - people were just cleaning shelves in the room.

I hand painted the wall in my Mother in law's kitchen, but after sometime she removed it motivating she had a bad dream about it.

My husband is a 3d artist and he is jealous about my photos, drawings or any attempt to start a career in some artistic field.

My always makes derogatory comments about my looks especially when she drinks a glass of wine on gets in an other way relaxed. She does her best to undermine my self esteem in general. She doesn't only desencourages my artistic projects, but even when we talk about regular works - she does her best to pursuade me I am no good for the amount of salary I am offered.

My family basically sees me only as a modest housewife who should always be there for their needs.

But not only family. My profile on facebook contains millions of my artistic photos, sketches, my own nice pictures. I put it all there to get noticed by my friends many of whom work in fashion industry, magazines, are photographs. But noone notices. On the contrary I regulary -- really regularly receive requests --- would you promote my music\painting\photography? would you lend me some money
etcetcetc

I wouldn't say it was like that all the time. I got some esteem myself. I worked in a fashion magazine as an editor and retailing company as a fashion market analyst, travelled a lot, waled as a model for friend's fashion show, modelled for a fashion shooting. But it never started out into a carreer. Also things hugely changed when I gave birth to my second child. Everyone only sees my mother side or - the Moon, say people want me to be supportive of their (especially) beauty projects, but neglect my own talents, style and looks.

I guess the point is that i tried to make career (10 and 6 th houses) in the beauty field which brought too much rivalry into my life - both from men and women. But thinking back i guess there was not other choice, because the square ususally starts like trine - something pleasant and offering opportunities, but gives unexpected difficulty.

For ex my husband. We met at cinema school. His Mars and Venus conjunct my Moon, so we got a lot of understanding and many things and common and topics to discuss. It gave the illusion that we can be supportive to each other in the work, make projects together. But whenever we start doing something together or even living closely - the different vision, different ideals, jealousy - becomes evident.

Sorry for such long reply. Just my sore spot.:crying:
Long replies are fine. Just please break up the paragraphs if you're writing long ones!

Venus conjunct the south nodes sounds like you're working out past life--or ancestral past--issues surrounding Venusian sorts of things, like art and beauty and femininity. North nodes represent the place to work toward, growing away from those south node patterns. Yours would be in Leo, so it sounds like it's a Leo sort of direction you need to go in.

Maybe the squares are the challenges that get thrown at you to, hopefully, push you in that direction? But it sounds like you're still falling back on south node patterns. Without knowing more about what's going on for you, it's hard to say what would help you grow toward those north nodes.

Thanks for helping me try to understand squares!
 

Salme

Active member
I suspect the Moon - empathy principle just got too much activated specialy when my second child came so that i became too emotional and easy to take offence, etc.

I studied popular science film making at cinema school, so I guess this was exactly my nodal direction - from Aquarius to Leo - make progressive ideas look good on screen, attract attention. But my Moon (kids, family matters, emotions) knocked me off this way.

Intrestingly now that Jupiter in Leo transited my North node and ascendant i got several job invites from my hometown. One of them is to work in a ski resort which is shaped like space station or alien ship in the mountains and has 3D simulations of planets inside, museum of science and so on. The salary is OK to take care of all my family. But it's 2000 kms away from my husband's hometown where we live now.

So my Mother in law (Taurus Sun nearly exactly on my Moon\her own Moon in Cancer) is extremely against, because she has established business here where we live now and doesn't want to let anyone go away from her control, or say "intensive care" ))

But I would say i got through this situation using my Aquarian Venusian energies. Studying astrology, being able to emotionally withdraw from extremes, abstract and even laugh after all at how all really works.

The conclusions i made would probably be
1) Moon got really activated after i gave birth to second child (she has ascendant in Taurus - so too much Tauri around got it out of me after all)
2) I disliked this experience and it was difficult to master this side of myself because i guess Taurus Moon is exalted so if it's also damaged sharp angles get exggerated.
 

jennyyates

New member
The moon & Venus, as you say, are both about emotions & connections. But the moon is much more instinctive. Lunar patterns are established very early in life, and have to do with survival on the most basic level. Venus patterns show up a little later, when you've clearly distinguished between yourself and others. Basically, the moon is about what you need, and Venus about what you want.

So it's easy to see how things can be at odds. You need healthy food to survive, but you want Cheetos. You need a mutually supportive relationship, but you want that super-attractive person who just walked by. You need security, but you want to max out your credit card on something extravagant.

So generally the moon is much more security-conscious, while Venus is more pleasure-oriented. But you refine their differences further by looking at their signs. What does the moon need? What does Venus want?

Sometimes our instinctive needs don't seem all that healthy for us, but there they are. For example, someone with a lot of nervous energy may need to run around a lot, even while they want a life that's balanced and calm. So it's not always that the moon represents what's considered traditionally healthy. It's more that it stems from early instincts that can't be denied (without making you depressed or ill) but that have to be expressed somehow. Usually there are both healthy and unhealthy manifestations of our moons.

Your moon in Sagittarius doesn't seem all that security-conscious, but it shows an early pattern that connects security with the need for excitement, passion and adventure. It can indicate a feeling that, in order to maintain security, you have to run away from things on a regular basis. Or that you need to make passionate, sweeping commitments to things. Or sometimes one, sometimes the other.

Venus, by its nature, is more of a creature of choice. So while your moon is doing passionate things by instinct, your Venus in Virgo is making clear, dispassionate choices about what is well-designed, fitting, symmetrical, and practical. This is what she wants.

You can also see a square as a judgment from one side of your psyche to another. For example, from the standpoint of your Venus, your moon in Sagittarius is dangerously impulsive, messy, tending to a lot of loose ends. From the standpoint of your moon, your Venus in Virgo may be repressed, overly concerned with control. So they have to find a way to combine these two different approaches to relationships and to emotional well-being.

Hope this perspective helps...

Jenny
 
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