The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
greybeard said:
You can spot a psychopath a mile away. They have a bald spot, no teeth, gasp for breath due to compulsive tobacco consumption, leave dirty socks on the floor and kick their dogs.

If you want to see the chart of a psychopath, look at Phil's thread "Need help here; child molester." The chart demonstrates how there is no "special indicator" for the condition, but that if we approach a chart with an understanding of the symptoms, or diagnostic traits -- of any condition -- we can determine whether or not the person fits the bill. The chart of the child molester here is clearly psychopathic.

If I abandoned the thread, it was because I can get all the chit-chat I need down at the local coffee shop. I come here for astrology. But I do apologize if I have left you feeling orphaned.
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Not all Psychopaths are adults greybeard as shown by an investigative documentary on BIO Channel "Killer Kids" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYS5PDhNPdE&feature=related that QUOTE: '......provides an in-depth profile of the lives of kids who kill. What can possibly motivate kids to commit criminal acts and even murder? From hate crimes to gang initiations, murders of family members to occult ceremonies, each case in the series exposes different motives and methods of murders by children....'
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
The horoscope is effective from birth.

Perhaps these kids are wearing toupes and false teeth. You can bet they kick their dogs.

For greater insight into this problem read Animal Farm.
 
Claire19

Claire19

Well-known member
Jesusistheway said:
You guys should cultivate compassion on yourselves because neither of you gains anything by this kind of talk. Now psychopaths, sociopaths whatever label you call them , are indeed power hungry but you should know that in the next life they will lose their power, so its wise to be compassionate on their soul. In the next life, life as we know it on earth is upside down. The so called "losers" without jobs, wives, the virgins, the outcasts, the lowly, the saintly, the very poor, etc. are the ones who are exalted and the rich, powerful suffer because of what they've done with all the responsibility they've had. Its not always the case but most talked about throughout near death experiences and theology.
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It is not that the losers will have a better life when they pass over as indeed they may have been paying their karmic debts by being in reduced circumstances, and the saintly are not necessarily promised an exalted life hereafter either. We choose our circumstances and those who do the wrong thing, no matter what walk of life, will be tied to the karmic wheel and have to reincarnate on Earth to pay out the karma.
Heaven and hell is what you make and it is right here on Earth. It is wise to have some concern about those who know no better than to devalue, abuse and exploit others as they will have to redeem themselves and live the life that they have imposed on others.

We reap what we sow and the Universe is impersonal and all will be balanced out by our own higher soul decisions. .
 
Claire19

Claire19

Well-known member
irishcuban said:
"Most of us fail to realize that the full spectrum of human behaviors exists within each of us. I could be the mass murderer, the prostitute, the saint, the drunk... But frankly, most of us don't want to see those things in ourselves. We deny even the possibility."


i agree with this statement 100%
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Most of us would not be capable of mass murder, prostitution and drunkenness. All this can be shown in the birth chart and although we all have a shadow side it is not necessarily so extreme as you paint. I for instance would never be a drunk under any circumstances and have been down to the wire on many occasions but never thought of reaching for a bottle. I also could not murder anyone unless it was to defend myself or my family. Prostitution is not a sin and interesting you include that.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
It is not so much the actions of the psychopath which distinguish him from the mass of people. It is the attitudes that are part and parcel of his being. And I really don't think anyone here has been talking about sin and evil and such.

If we really look closely, stop and think about it, it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to see that our world is indeed administered by the psychopathic. I suppose they are the leaders of mankind. At least there are a lot of them out there in high places.
 
ptolomy

ptolomy

Well-known member
I personally believe that our opinions of what constitutes psychopathic behavior is very heavily influenced by the media and movies especially.In reality we don't usually experience these stereotypical behaviors as no psychopath is going to be operating overtly unless they want to be discovered?So displaying lack of conscience is going to be well disguised in my opinion.And therefore the majority of us wouldnt realise we were communicating with a psychopath even right in front of our face.Also it appears to me that low life behavior that cannot be disguised by these types will be disguised by devious methods as in the people who are involved in war having a special vocabulary that hides the real purpose of their intent,Ie how often our nations weaponry is described by our 'leaders' as 'defense',when its quite obvious to me that the majority of the military equipment is 'offensive',From my personal experience the only equipment that i consider defensive is shields of one form or another,It doesn't usually require that you leave your own country and invade another as is the case with much 'defense' these days.I guess in time with the misuse of language that people don't even question such nonsense as they have unconsciously accepted this nonsense as normal.And i guess what im really saying is that we have been taken in by many of these snakes that are in leadership because they have spent so much energy on corrupting our methods of understanding that many people are totally oblivious of whats in front of their faces now.How often do we hear these days how important it is for our economies to give massive monetary gains for those who 'work' on the stock market"otherwise we wont attract the right types of people into this work and we will all suffer for it",lol.To me this says that to qualify to work in this area you need to be greedy or you will fail.I would have thought that if we want the financial institutes to benefit all then they should not be run by people who are self interested only.Thats totally contrary to our needs.
Lastly i dont believe a person has to lack a conscience to be a psychopath as its quite obvious to me that we all can ignore our conscience,Its designed to be like that otherwise we would lack free will im my opinion,Whilst the opposite to conscience:Ego,can possess a person,Conscience offers choice and free will.Ego offers enslavement and lack of free will.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Folks interested in the psychopath might like:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-psychopaths-teach-us-about-how-to-succeed

Also, if you subscribe to Netflix, there is this very well done documentary titled "The Corporation" available for instant viewing.

http://dvd.netflix.com/Search?v1=Th...The+Corporation&search_submit=&ac_abs_posn=-1

I started this thread because someone else had asked a question about some personality type. It led me to investigate the problem of the psychopath. I used my meager resources to try to define, in my own mind, the qualities that describe the psychopath.

This led me to the discovery of several things. First, the movies do influence our perceptions of what we think things are or should be. If we as astrologers are to determine whether someone suffers from, or "has", a certain condition, we must understand what the symptoms or traits of that condition are. Then we read a horoscope. If we find that the horoscope in question shows a person "has" a lot of the traits common or symptomatic of a certain condition, then we can say that person "has" the condition. A horoscope does not normally provide a certain "signature" (astrologically) for the various conditions encountered in mankind. In other words, if we are going to be effective as astrologers (and our interest is in the psychology of the client), then we must educate ourselves in many areas apart from astrology per se.

The question also led me to see that our world society is and always has been dominated and controlled (led) by psychopathic personalities. In the modern world, the corporation is a dominant influence and the corporation (almost all of them) displays psychopathic behaviors. And the successful CEO displays the traits of the psychopath. If the head of the parade is psychopathic, the followers will, without being aware of it, act psychopathically. The economics of putting food on the table require it. And fattening the bottom line benefits from inhumanity, from absence of conscience.

It is very difficult, almost impossible, to not participate in and cooperate with the insanity that characterizes our world. Not very many people want to live as the Amish do. Life has taught me one thing, and that is that the key to changing "my world" for the better is awareness.
 
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gen6k

Well-known member
it is exceedingly true that capital simulation exhalts the 19/1 personality.

a major problem with legislature in general is the inclusion of 19/1 as "conventionality" instead of psycho/sociopathy.

the more traditional/conventional/capital type archetypes are:

1, 4, 8, 19/1

this doesnt necessarily mean that it is the order of anyone with these numbers.

1 is an action-orientated independent archetype kind of like "mars" energy.
4 is a foundation based archetype kind of like "earth venus or saturn energy"
8 is an enterprise energy kind of like "jupiter,sun, saturn" energy
19/1 is a modulation of the 1 that is extra self-serving and also turns this self-serving energy inside out.

its a really paradoxical energy and can be used to gain power, and also easily abuse power.

another common archetype is 14/5 which is the abuse of freedom.

it depends on the whole system though. theres a lot of good people with 19/1 energy when combined with other altrustic numbers. for example john nash and conor oberst. they have made mistakes, but they were able to turn this energy inside out and serve others. they kind of are arrogant and hold the ball though.


this represents not a "liberal" or "conservative" axis, but it is more attuned to the "traditional" it is more of a functional axis of actual gestures in any type of environment.

the 19/1 axis on the "capital republican" side would represent the extremist neo-con people as well as profit-orientated ceos.

the major problem is that the other numbers also rely on this axis being a 1. an action orientated person that doesnt over-empathize and is able to take action. once they get a command of power they abuse it.

since we are living in a capital simulation type system where desires and ideas revolve around a psuedo-individual spectacle. the 19/1 is actually at many times praised over the 20/2s and so on.

john f kennedy for example is a 20/2 archetype and it is only one number to each side of the 19/1.

the legislature system being of a traditional nature includes the 19/1s as viable because they appear as other confident things.

the other side is

2, 3, 5, 9, 20/2

7 is more of an introverted number, but its also part of a formula. 6 is kind of like cancerian. it seeks domestic foundation and nurturing things of that sort.

2 is a harmonic orientated archetype with empathy kind of like "moon and venus" energy.
3 is a creative dreaming type energy kind of like "neptune and mercury"
5 is a freedom seeking type energy kind of like "jupiter" energy.
9 is a humanitarian and analytic type energy kind of like "uranian" energy.
20/2 is a spiritual type service energy kind of like "uranus with the dreams of neptune" also its lower number including venus and moon.

well if society were constructed some other way the system itself would counter-act the prominence of the 19/1 energy along with some other karmic debts. its really all about balance.

the first axis does represent some kind of Egypt while the second represents more of a Babylon

this is of course a fake spectrum, but the unreduced 19/1 energy will continue to be listened to just because of how necessary it is to be of a kind of consortium of gravitational energy that seems like its almost giving.

socio/psycho paths with usually have several karmic debts instead of one or two in their numerology. most people have one karmic debt. it doesnt matter if they also have high intellectual energy it could be used for their karmic debt, or their karmic debt could be used to actually create a better imagined good and propel society instead by knowing itself. the point of karmic debt is to learn from mistakes, flip it, reduce it, utilize it positively, etc.

the axioms of capital are for example "self-interest" and "profit from masses"

capital is not only a manifestation of "content" or a "medium" it is a "transitory" phase of mediums and content. capitalism is the epi-genetic depth-psychology of a few thousand years.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
ptolomy said:
I personally believe that our opinions of what constitutes psychopathic behavior is very heavily influenced by the media and movies especially.In reality we don't usually experience these stereotypical behaviors as no psychopath is going to be operating overtly unless they want to be discovered?So displaying lack of conscience is going to be well disguised in my opinion.And therefore the majority of us wouldnt realise we were communicating with a psychopath even right in front of our face.Also it appears to me that low life behavior that cannot be disguised by these types will be disguised by devious methods as in the people who are involved in war having a special vocabulary that hides the real purpose of their intent,Ie how often our nations weaponry is described by our 'leaders' as 'defense',when its quite obvious to me that the majority of the military equipment is 'offensive',From my personal experience the only equipment that i consider defensive is shields of one form or another,It doesn't usually require that you leave your own country and invade another as is the case with much 'defense' these days.I guess in time with the misuse of language that people don't even question such nonsense as they have unconsciously accepted this nonsense as normal.And i guess what im really saying is that we have been taken in by many of these snakes that are in leadership because they have spent so much energy on corrupting our methods of understanding that many people are totally oblivious of whats in front of their faces now.How often do we hear these days how important it is for our economies to give massive monetary gains for those who 'work' on the stock market"otherwise we wont attract the right types of people into this work and we will all suffer for it",lol.To me this says that to qualify to work in this area you need to be greedy or you will fail.I would have thought that if we want the financial institutes to benefit all then they should not be run by people who are self interested only.Thats totally contrary to our needs.
Lastly i dont believe a person has to lack a conscience to be a psychopath as its quite obvious to me that we all can ignore our conscience,Its designed to be like that otherwise we would lack free will im my opinion,Whilst the opposite to conscience:Ego,can possess a person,Conscience offers choice and free will.Ego offers enslavement and lack of free will.
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Thanks for directing attention to what is apparently a key factor regarding psychopathic traits Ptolomy!

Mercury Retrograde brings to the surface an interesting question: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39067 "Do You Have A Conscience?" :smile:
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Let's see if I have this straight....

If I can get a gear ratio of 7/1, add some sawdust and a liberal dose of 5/30 Oil, stir for 16 minutes at 1450 rpm, then bake at 375 for 22 minutes, I can convert a 19/l society into a 20/2 society and erase all memory of 9/11. 10/4 good buddy.
 
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Seasoul

Seasoul

Well-known member
Interesting discussion.

However, I think it is important to note that an astrologer, unless they are also a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist, is not equipped to diagnose psychopathy. Traits can be detected, and can hint at many things, types, disorders, the full shebang, but you cannot diagnose mental illness without the appropriate training. Additionally, I think you will find zero mental health professionals who will assess an individual without actually clapping eyes on them. Traits are one thing, but a substantial percentage of communication is non-verbal - this is just as important for diagnosis as the symptoms an individual presents with.

2 cents. Enjoying the thread regardless.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
It is true that much communication is non-verbal.
It is also true that that communication represents the internal state of the subject.
Astrology reveals that state.

Here is a quote from Carl Jung, for what it's worth:

"Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart through the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul."

Modern western psychology/psychiatry is simply one system of looking into the human psyche. The system has created certain idiosyncratic perspectives and conceptions, developed a jargon/terminology, invented therapies and even syndromes. I hesitate to accept such a system as the only valid means of addressing the human soul. Western psychology is notably dependent on the individual practicing the art: there is the Freudian school, the Jungians, the Adlerites, the Gestalt crowd, the Pavlovians... Western psychology has not to date defined the characteristics of psychopathy (nor many other conditions); the art is always in a state of flux and seems to change with the seasons. The rate of "cure" for western psychiatry seems to me no higher than that achieved by Alcoholics Anonymous, various spiritual disciplines, or self-therapies. And in its course, the "science" [hence our certified experts] has created a nation of hypochondriac drug addicts. You are welcome to your technocracy; I will side with common sense and the experience of life.
 
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Seasoul

Seasoul

Well-known member
greybeard said:
It is true that much communication is non-verbal.
It is also true that that communication represents the internal state of the subject.
Astrology reveals that state.

Here is a quote from Carl Jung, for what it's worth:

"Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart through the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul."
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I think you will find he is referring to the willingness to go to the depths of the psyche with the patient. Not that academia has no merit. He is outlining the importance of depth psychology, as opposed to perhaps, counselling. Pretty much everything he did was experimental - that's why he *was* so prolific at the time.

EDIT: he is also saying that we can learn more from the most disordered in society. Which I completely agree with, and is where my interest lies as a result. I'm not sure how this negates the need for education? Even those grossly qualified in psychology will shrink from high-security institutions - it is a matter of backbone, but backbone is careless, and dangerous in this context, without relevant knowledge.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Gosh. I can read what he said. What he is "referring to" is quite clear in the text.

"...he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him", and "...will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology." are unequivocal statements. I wish I could read as you do and make a text say what I want it to say. But, alas, I simply am not possessed of that sort of legerdemain.

You might also note that Jung, in the introduction to Richard Wilhelm's nonpareil work on the I Ching, The Secret of the Golden Flower, says "Whatever is born of a given moment is of the nature of that moment." And what astrology does, very precisely, is to define and describe "the nature of a moment." The horoscope is based on an exact time and exact place -- and nothing more -- and that is what defines and distinguishes that moment from all other possible moments in the whole of spacetime. And the subject of that horoscope is that moment (or of the nature of that moment) made manifest.

Astrology is a system of psychology which uses concepts and terms different from western psychology. It is just as effective, just as valid. An astrologer could describe a person based on astrology, and the psychiatrist would see the description and exclaim, "Aha! This person is a psychopath." All we are doing here is to borrow the concepts/terms of western psychology to facilitate communication/understanding. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... A psychiatrist, without ever seeing a person, can look at the results of testing and diagnose the patient; it is commonly done, at least on a preliminary basis. The astrological chart is very much like the batteries of psychological tests. It is a "chart" (a map) of the person's psyche.
 
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Seasoul

Seasoul

Well-known member
Greybeard,

you have effectively rendered any further discussion on this matter pointless, for me. I find your tone abrasive and defensive, which is inhibiting to intelligent discussion.

Any actual authority knows that the more you know, the more there is to question.

Best.
 
NancyS

NancyS

Well-known member
greybeard said:
THE PSYCHOPATH IN THE HOROSCOPE

...

With this brief description of the condition in hand, how does the astrologer determine if the native of a particular horoscope is a psychopath? As our example we will use Adolf Hitler (20 April 1889, 1830 LMT, Braunau-am-Inn, Austria.) You can pull up Hitler’s chart at http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page
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There's a theory that Hitler would not have gone down the path he did had he not been rejected from art school as a young man. His first love was art. The reason he was rejected was because he was unable to draw realistic looking humans and left their faces blank.

Had he not been rejected, he would have been known to us now, if at all, as a probably mediocre artist who had a distorted view of people. Makes me wonder what sort of influence Picasso would have had if he were forced to abandon art and become a politician.

My point is, there may be as many indications in Hitler's chart for artistic talent as psychosis (edit - oops I mean psychopathy), but events in his life triggered the bad aspects in his chart.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Psychosis and psychopathy are not the same thing.

I'm glad there are no psychotic or psychopathic artists. I guess they all became dictators.

What might have happened is not what did happen.
 
NancyS

NancyS

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Psychosis and psychopathy are not the same thing.

I'm glad there are no psychotic or psychopathic artists. I guess they all became dictators.

What might have happened is not what did happen.
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So, can you tell in his chart why what might have happened, didn't?

(and OT sort of, but speaking of psychopathic artists, have you heard of the rock group Mayhem?)
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
I have not heard of the rock group Mayhem. I have heard of Bill Haley and the Comets.

Hitler's chart is not the chart of an artist. He was rejected because he lacked the talent. He then went to war, and found his place, his path.

In his chart Saturn is in Leo (command, kingship), in the 10th, and squares all the 7th house planets. Venus is the preeminent planet in the chart (the planet is over-emphasized), Libra and the 7th House strong. So there are shades of artistry. But the 7th House is, besides being the house of "the fine arts", the house of War. Venus (as mentioned, superlatively powerful in the chart) is also in vile condition. She is in her own sign of Taurus (supposedly a good thing), but afflicted on many counts. She is partile conjunct Mars, the god of war, who in Taurus is often deeply resentful and angry. It would take a small book to describe why what might have happened didn't happen. But the short answer to your question is, Yes; his chart tells why things turned out as they did.

It is always easier to look at and evaluate a chart in hindsight than in foresight. But any competent astrologer would see the inclinations shown by this chart without reference to Hitler's curriculum vitae.
 
NancyS

NancyS

Well-known member
My point was that some founding members of the Norwegian death metal band Mayhem were by my definition "psychopaths". Here's the wiki if you are interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayhem_%28band%29. Still, they are primarily considered "artists". It would be super interesting to find the band's inception date and draw up a chart for it. But I digress...

Thanks for your explanation of Hitler's chart. But you hypothesized that the main precondition for the psychopath is apathy. What would indicate apathy in Hitler's chart?

I tend to think the moon governs the swell of emotions and the bonding that occurs as a result. Would you say that the free-flowing negative influence (trine) of the moon in Capricorn, exasperated by Jupiter, corrupted Hitler's Venutian focus?

For 7 years I've known a man who has a Uranus/Sun conjunction in Libra in his 12th house, offset the same degree from his Ascendant as Hitler's Uranus. This conjunction is also opposite Mars in Taurus, square atop his Descendant. We never argued once, either as friends or as a couple.

However he has his moon opposite Hitler's in 9th house Cancer; considerably stronger, and Venus not as strong in 2nd house Sagittarius.
 
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