Understanding the Cold Social Touch of Saturn

byjove

Account Closed
Once in a while, I read/hear an astrologer reference an inherant cold touch that stems from a Saturn placement. (I think this stretches to mundane also?) What is this about? What about Saturn cools social interaction? The kind I mean is avoiding or exiting social situations. I've heard about this with Moon, Venus, Sun-Saturn contact, I think the Lights and the three personal planets.

Years ago, I found a chart with a tight Venus-Saturn trine. Back then, I thought 'trine is good' and expected only positive results. This person proved very prudent with money (not 'tight-fisted' just prudent) and stable and steady in love. But the person ... had no interest in friendship. Watching potential friends try to connect with that person was like waiting for a response to a signal sent into space. This is just one example, I don't base it all on this.

Can anyone enlighten about the cold, social Saturn touch?
 
M

may28gemini

It depends on the signs of the planets and what the context of the reason why you were reaching out to this person.

My dad has Venus conjunct Saturn (tightly) and he's not exactly hard to reach but he's not trusting at all. Venus is via Combusta and Saturn both in Scorpio. He's polite in public but not exactly what you'd call a "friendly" person. If there's social interaction, there's a practical purpose/reason for it.

I have Libra Saturn tightly conjoined to my Asc (same degree) and people don't tell me they have a hard time "reaching" me, but maybe some feel too comfortable telling me things that I don't want to know or hear about them :andy:
 

RisingSag

Well-known member
I agree, also a saturn influence can make one shy. Remember, saturn does traditionally rule aquarius, and I do believe that the traditional ruling planets have an impact. So Aquarius, is a more refined expression of Saturn. I'll be friends with everyone, unless theres only one of you, and in that case, I'll isolate myself. Intimacy? No way!
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Detached is a characteristic of Saturn, so too is "reserved"-however, such qualities will only be significant IF Saturn is the predominant planet in the given chart.
 
M

may28gemini

I agree, also a saturn influence can make one shy. Remember, saturn does traditionally rule aquarius, and I do believe that the traditional ruling planets have an impact. So Aquarius, is a more refined expression of Saturn. I'll be friends with everyone, unless theres only one of you, and in that case, I'll isolate myself. Intimacy? No way!

I think of the expression, "Friendly, but distant."
 
M

may28gemini

Saturn is pretty dominant in my chart... but so is Jupiter, so keep that in mind. I'm not exactly a shy person, but I am "specific" in who I interact with beyond general pleasantries.

 

kailaniatsea

Well-known member
Well, I am a little Saturnine myself. Lately, I do not feel like talking to others in person; it's been like this for a few years. Having my Moon and Neptune on the cusp of the 12th house doesn't help matters, even if they are in fire signs. Also, the disposer of my Moon is conjunct Saturn and once again disposes in Virgo in the 8th house. Honestly, I feel more like a Capricorn than a sociable and spotlight loving Leo (my sign). In fact, I become very uncomfortable with lavish amounts of attention. As a child I used to get mortified and feel great social anxiety to the point of holding in my biological needs. Strange for a Lion. I ask myself a few things with attention: what do they want from me; they claim to love me now, but will they hate me tomorrow. My reaction then becomes self-protective. But I do like to entertain, cook for others and tell stories about travel, arts and culture. If I owned a hotel, I would turn it in a classy party central with gourmet food. What a contradiction. I will say that I am not a cold person even though people tell me that I come across like that. I am pretty warm, teary eyed (in private that is) and will go to bat for the right cause and others once I feel engaged enough. It's just that the Cardinal Grand Crosses have taken the p*** out of me.
 

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byjove

Account Closed
Detached is a characteristic of Saturn, so too is "reserved"-however, such qualities will only be significant IF Saturn is the predominant planet in the given chart.

Would an emphasized Saturn, raising this reservation and detachment, hint toward self-reliance or preferring one's own company much of the time?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Would an emphasized Saturn, raising this reservation and detachment, hint toward self-reliance or preferring one's own company much of the time?


Yes-as in my own personal case, where 1st house Saturn is only surpassed in dominance by Uranus in my natal chart.
 
M

may28gemini

As a general thing, Saturn is considered "cold" because Saturn detaches/distances or more drastically, I like the use the word "starve" out. Saturn is Earth and melancholy, by which, naturally, prone to be at a distance.

Saturn in the 1st house/conjunct AC would especially emphasize Saturnine qualities of being alone. Saturn starves out the ego, but strengthens the backbone, both metaphorically and literally. The result would be someone who's got a strong backbone to stand on their own. Because the ego is starved out, there's lack of "need" for external validation which is why such people would not be easy to "reach" (as the main propelling component of why people reach out to each other is to seek validation).

I suppose if we collect a bunch of people with Saturn in the 1st house, you might find that they're all loners by nature, and if they do like company, they prefer very specific company.

I'm not saying that Saturn in 1st house/AC people dislike others or are 100000% hermits, but there is not much of a need to be around others who would not be worth it. Saturn also represents time and Saturn doesn't like to waste time, so frivolity is not really in the vocabulary.


Even though I'm Libra rising and that's one of the most social risings there is, I'm not exactly a typical one. I'm fairly social, and I am quite adept when it comes to interpersonal interactions, however, I'd still prefer to be alone and as a general thing, and I'm MUCH happier alone than when I'm with others. I don't need to interact with others, as I'm quite content being near others. There's lack of need for others to acknowledge my existence, as there's lack of need for me to acknowledge their's. That sounds probably "cold" or whatever, but Saturn on my AC only serves to make me pair down to the very essentials (this is why I love using the word "starve") of what it is that I can do with or without. So yes, Saturn in the 1st house/AC are a bit more austere as a general trait, but I think it's misunderstood as being cold.
 

Drsendero

Well-known member
I've got Saturn in the first house just a couple degrees from the ascendant. I'm a bit of a loner, I don't dislike people in general but I am not comfortable in those social situations where I am with lots of people, especially if the interaction focuses on chit chat. I avoid those situations as much as I can. I have no problem whatsoever with spending a day at home by myself, going on solo camping trips into the wilderness or traveling solo abroad. As a matter of fact, such independent activities refresh me. I think I'm friendly overall and most people seem to see me as a genuinely nice, friendly guy (my Saturn receives a trine from Venus), but I definitely prefer to be either by myself or with small numbers people with whom I have something in common.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Each planet has an inherent natural character. That character is expressed on a sliding scale running from "positive" to "negative," that is, good or constructive traits to bad or destructive traits. The form of expression is judged by all of the factors (sign, house, aspects, condition of lord, general tone of the chart as a whole....) that condition the planet.

Venus, as an example, contains the power of cooperation (it is in her inherent nature). However, where Venus is strongly afflicted, the native may find cooperation very difficult... s/he may be "uncooperative", not able to form or maintain cooperative relationships.

The nature of Saturn is cold and dry. He is brittle, hard, heavy, inhibited, contractive, etc. Saturn tends toward isolation: it is his nature. Thus, he shows our "identity", which is what we are as we stand alone. Saturn is shrewd, calculating, patient. He rules obligation, duty, responsibility.

When afflicted he leans toward negative, difficult, unpleasant expressions of these qualities. Even when well-supported, his innate character is reserved, disciplined, authoritarian.... the "good" side of Saturn.

Note that both Dr. Farr and Drsendero have Saturn rising, prominent in their charts. The positive expression of this position is that both are "authoritative".
 

Birch Dragon

Well-known member
I'd suggest that many of us don't recognize the degree to which (culturally? as a basic instinct?) we look to our daily relationships for emotional- and ego-validation. We look to the recognition of others to feel we're o.k. in our own selves. (There's a long history of thought on this - at least from Rousseau on up - suggesting that a lot of what drives human behaviour is recognition from others.)
Take dating. For most people, if they get rejected by somebody they tend to feel bad not just about the lost opportunity but bad about themselves. They feel rejected. Our sense of self-worth gets all caught up in our interactions with others and the way others react to us.
I'm going to guess that maybe Saturn is the energy that doesn't play this game. The planet of boundaries, maybe Saturn energy doesn't want all these little emotional entanglements.
And given how most of us expect social interactions to go, and all the unconscious meanings and expectations we hold for our social interactions, that Saturnian avoidance of entanglement might appear to most of us as "cold."
I have Saturn at the top of my chart, near my MC, and Neptune at the bottom of my chart, pretty much on my IC. In this, personally, I'm more like Neptune --- dissolving boundaries. And so I tack back and forth on Saturnian coldness. Usually I think it's criminal. But sometimes I really see its worth.

That said, this whole interpretation could be wrong...
 

The_Sundance_Kid

Well-known member
I think it's hard to pin point Saturn's coldness. Saturn can be quite a lech too, and Capricorns can live it up in their own way. Saturn is quite a chameleon. I think it brings insecurity rather than detachment. And people deal with insecurity by being detached.

So a strong Saturn might make someone be a loner. But that might not be because they want to be alone. They might want to be friendly and sociable, maybe more than the average person. But they are so insecure about it they would rather not try rather than try and fail. Further, if Saturn is insecure, it might not be that other people are 'mean' to Saturn but Saturn perceives what other people say and do as being 'mean', thereby re-enforcing its own prejudice against the world and its mistrust.

I think of Saturn in the 1st house as someone who cannot love himself or trust himself.
 
M

may28gemini

I'd suggest that many of us don't recognize the degree to which (culturally? as a basic instinct?) we look to our daily relationships for emotional- and ego-validation. We look to the recognition of others to feel we're o.k. in our own selves. (There's a long history of thought on this - at least from Rousseau on up - suggesting that a lot of what drives human behaviour is recognition from others.)
Take dating. For most people, if they get rejected by somebody they tend to feel bad not just about the lost opportunity but bad about themselves. They feel rejected. Our sense of self-worth gets all caught up in our interactions with others and the way others react to us.
I'm going to guess that maybe Saturn is the energy that doesn't play this game. The planet of boundaries, maybe Saturn energy doesn't want all these little emotional entanglements.
And given how most of us expect social interactions to go, and all the unconscious meanings and expectations we hold for our social interactions, that Saturnian avoidance of entanglement might appear to most of us as "cold."
I have Saturn at the top of my chart, near my MC, and Neptune at the bottom of my chart, pretty much on my IC. In this, personally, I'm more like Neptune --- dissolving boundaries. And so I tack back and forth on Saturnian coldness. Usually I think it's criminal. But sometimes I really see its worth.

That said, this whole interpretation could be wrong...

Yes! That's how I described Saturn in the 1st house/AC because ego is tied up via the reflections of others, ego gets inflated or deflated based upon the validation or lack thereof from others (external). However, Saturn is internalized, and does not rely upon external validation for existence, Saturn already KNOWS he exists and stands up on his own. The result of a person with Saturn in the 1st house is a person who knows they exist in this world with or without external reinforcements. Because there's lack of concern for external validation, the appearance is mistaken as "cold" because the detachment, aloofness, and authoritative stance.

It's good to bring up the IC because that touches upon a person's origins. Just as the MC represents the highest and most public point of a person's chart and that it is the fate of where the native must reach to fulfill their destiny, the IC reveals the native's genesis and that is the point of where one is derived from and more telling, where one retreats to.

As it stands, I have Libra Saturn (and Jupiter) on my AC but my IC is in Capricorn :lol::lol::lol: so there's really no way for me to escape Saturn. Saturn is exalted on the ascendant and Saturn rules the 4th house, where my IC sits. The world views me as Saturnine through my AC, but at my very core, I really am Saturnine.

I was raised by my granny who is quite an interesting and very daring independent lady. She has 0º Aqua Saturn on the AC... and all her life, she wanted nothing more than to be away from people, esp. those who make a fuss over her. She likes being around others, but she doesn't need to interact with them directly. I'm exactly the same way. Actually, my chart mimics hers, so I guess I can say that I inherited her legacy.


Not many people can get close to me unless they understand that I care for them in a rather independent and detached way and few can grasp that. I don't want to rely on others and similarly, I don't want others to rely on me. I am rather a more self-sufficient person and enjoy making do with what I have. Most people I encounter want devotion and adoration, someone to baby them and carry them through, which is something for me, as being very Saturnine as I am, cannot comprehend nor could I even rationalize the energy to worship another. I really don't think it can enter any Saturn person's brain that they would/should worship someone else...which is probably why we're such loners.
 
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The_Sundance_Kid

Well-known member
Birthdragon - I like your interpretation. I wonder if Saturn doesn't want to play or if Saturn is longing to play but is too scared of losing? Other planets are more flexible but because Saturn crystallises, early rejections get scarred into the psyche.
 

Birch Dragon

Well-known member
Ram:
Since Scorpio is fixed water (this would be represented by ice, which does have form and structure).
Saturn and ice. I like the image...

may28gemini: Someday soon I'm going to have to ask you about your Saturn/Jupiter conj. My wife has that placement as well and I want to know more about it. I'll have to start a thread on it. Also... probably for another thread as well... but what you've said about the IC is illuminating for me. I think I've neglected the IC in my past thinking, and certain people I've talked to on this site - Caprising immediately comes to mind - have really made me rethink the importance of the IC...

Sundance Kid: I'm just about to post in another thread you've just started, on Mars in Aquarius. But in response to your postings here: I'm not an astrologer (full disclosure) and I'm only beginning to wade into Phase II of being an Astrologers' Community poster: moving from only asking questions to (tentatively) venturing some answers... or at least some thoughts.
But my amateur wondering is this: I wonder if what you're suggesting describes Saturn in certain placements in a chart, under certain influences (maybe Saturn in 7th or 8th house... or other placements???).
But I don't know. Perhaps an authoritative, Saturnian, Senior Member heavyweight can weigh in for us... :smile:
 
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Drsendero

Well-known member
Sundance Kid,

"I think of Saturn in the 1st house as someone who cannot love himself or trust himself."

I found that sentence quite negative regarding the expression of Saturn in the 1st. While there is some truth to it, let me assure you that it is possible for a person with Saturn in the 1st to feel good about him or herself and to trust in his or her abilities. It may take time to get to that point, I'll attest to that, but I firmly (authoritatively?) believe that this position can manifest itself in positive ways for personal as well as social good.

And of course, Saturn's aspects, sign, term, sect, midpoint structure, etc. will all flavor Saturn in the first house, so that even though it is a position indicating a great deal of reserve, I think we can all agree on that, this reserve can be manifested in many different ways, not all of them negative.

I also wanted to interject into this general discussion that the perception of Saturn's influence, no matter what house it is in, is also dependent upon culture. Here is the US, Saturn's gifts are not celebrated in the popular culture. Shyness, the desire to have time by oneself, to shun the limelight, can draw comments of concern and that "something's wrong". (Think about how repeated comments like that to a young child can affect their self esteem and ability to love themselves.) The larger culture in the US promotes outgoing behaviors, sociability as much as possible, and celebrates being rich and famous, amongst other things. I've been to places where the latter behaviors are not seen as positively, where people value reserve, caution, and self-effacement and in such cultures Saturn's gifts are better appreciated.

Respectfully,
Drsendero
 

Birch Dragon

Well-known member
I also wanted to interject into this general discussion that the perception of Saturn's influence, no matter what house it is in, is also dependent upon culture. Here is the US, Saturn's gifts are not celebrated in the popular culture. Shyness, the desire to have time by oneself, to shun the limelight, can draw comments of concern and that "something's wrong". (Think about how repeated comments like that to a young child can affect their self esteem and ability to love themselves.) The larger culture in the US promotes outgoing behaviors, sociability as much as possible, and celebrates being rich and famous, amongst other things. I've been to places where the latter behaviors are not seen as positively, where people value reserve, caution, and self-effacement and in such cultures Saturn's gifts are better appreciated.

Yes!!
(Which is all I wanted to say, but I have to write ten characters or the site would post this, so...)
I'm always a fan of social-cultural context coming into the analysis. In astrology or otherwise. But I do find astrology talk tends to lean towards the strictly psychological -- often focusing on the innate tendencies of the native...
 
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