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Unread 04-23-2014, 05:47 AM
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Methods for verifying birth time

Has anyone tried these methods? Anyone find them helpful and/or reliable?

Pancha tatva method Short summary: Tattwa (element) at the time of birth: According to this theory in order for a person to be born, the birth has to take place during a vayu (air) tattwa or vayu antar tattwa There is more information here and a tutorial http://rayuduastrology.com/tatwaantar-tatwa-siddhanta/


Varga Chatushtaya method summary: The lagna’s in d9, d12, d81, and d108 should be conjunct or trine the nakshatra of the natal moon in order for the time to be considered correct. Only two vargas need to qualify in order for the time to be considered correct. More information (along with other rectification methods) in this PDF: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/4105581...Rectification+


What do you guys think?

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Unread 04-24-2014, 03:46 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

bumping
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Unread 04-24-2014, 04:51 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

I have never studied or tested these methods (although they are interesting; I would lean toward the tattwa method, but that's probably due to my more esoteric bias)
I've never found rectification necessary (in my experience); when I have had an unknown birthtime (but with date and place) I've used a chart set for sunrise, and have used either the ascendant at the time of the sunrise or, used the Sun's position as the ascendant for the chart: and, my experience in using such charts has been pretty accurate! At least, so far!
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Unread 04-24-2014, 10:38 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I have never studied or tested these methods (although they are interesting; I would lean toward the tattwa method, but that's probably due to my more esoteric bias)
I've never found rectification necessary (in my experience); when I have had an unknown birthtime (but with date and place) I've used a chart set for sunrise, and have used either the ascendant at the time of the sunrise or, used the Sun's position as the ascendant for the chart: and, my experience in using such charts has been pretty accurate! At least, so far!
May I ask you dr. farr

IF you use Sun's position as the ASC in such chart - and it proves accurate... why not use it in all instances and why would it not prove accurate for all people? How do you test the accuracy? By using transits and verifying all major events? OR something else?
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Unread 04-25-2014, 04:36 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

In doing so, it gives predominance to the Sun, which mars the chart indications somewhat by giving too much importance to the Sun vis-a-vis the other planets: thus this method is not (usually) as "pure" in according planetary importance, as the "regular way": I will add, however, that some practitioners (in Modernist Western astrology) during the 1930's through (approximately) 1950's, actually DID prefer to erect their natal charts this way INSTEAD of the usual way, even when they had the exact birth time!

But, for the reason I gave above about the Sun, I prefer to use the regular way of erecting natal charts, to the the "Solar ascendant" method. Lets say that this is an often effective (often accurate in delineations, transits, etc) DEFAULT method, when you lack the data necessary for erecting the chart in the regular way: however, the method is not as consistently and reliably accurate (especially in more specific details) as natal charts erected in the regular way: but when you don't have the available data to erect the regular chart, its the next best thing!
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Unread 04-26-2014, 06:22 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

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I have never studied or tested these methods (although they are interesting; I would lean toward the tattwa method, but that's probably due to my more esoteric bias)
I've never found rectification necessary (in my experience); when I have had an unknown birthtime (but with date and place) I've used a chart set for sunrise, and have used either the ascendant at the time of the sunrise or, used the Sun's position as the ascendant for the chart: and, my experience in using such charts has been pretty accurate! At least, so far!
Thanks for coming through as usual Dr. farr!!

Yes, the tattwa method seems to be alot more feasible. I tested the varga method on several charts that had already been rectified via significant dates, for a few maybe two vargas checked out, while the others called for alot of adjustment, in one case up to an hour later!! Now as far as the first method is concerned,on the site it states to subtract your local sunrise time from 6:00 am , my question now is which definition of sunrise should be used? For ex. jhora gives four definitions for sunrise: When the center of sun's disk is truly on the horizon, When the sun disk's is truly on the horizon, When the tip of the sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon, or the center of sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon?
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Unread 04-26-2014, 06:43 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

I have always considered sunrise to occur the moment the tip of the Sun's disc visibly cracks above the eastern horizon (given a flat and unobstructed view of the eastern horizon) If such an observation is unavailable to be made (inclement weather, mountains, etc) then I use local apparent time for sunrise (ie, take local mean time for sunrise and then either add or subtract minutes to that, according to the day of the year it is; use daily sun data tables-ie tables at that site-to make this calculation-assuming, of course, that the location is not in the high north/far south regions, in which case additional calculations regarding actual Sun time would be required for accuracy)
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Unread 04-26-2014, 12:08 PM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratherodd View Post
Thanks for coming through as usual Dr. farr!!

Yes, the tattwa method seems to be alot more feasible. I tested the varga method on several charts that had already been rectified via significant dates, for a few maybe two vargas checked out, while the others called for alot of adjustment, in one case up to an hour later!! Now as far as the first method is concerned,on the site it states to subtract your local sunrise time from 6:00 am , my question now is which definition of sunrise should be used? For ex. jhora gives four definitions for sunrise: When the center of sun's disk is truly on the horizon, When the sun disk's is truly on the horizon, When the tip of the sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon, or the center of sun's disk appears to be on the eastern horizon?
There was an old book by Bh. S. Rao which dealt with the matter of nadi-rectification but only used Tattwas and not sub-tattwas as Rayudu did (extension of Rao's concept which he claimed to come from scriptural sources that he came upon and condensed it in the tabular form in his book). He further recommended that the center of the sun (I believe he called it the astronomical sunrise). I tried this is several charts -- some were hits, some were misses (off by dozens of minutes) although the birthdata came from reliable sources and even hospital records (which can be off by few minutes, but never by dozens of minutes! This I say based on actual observations and not hearsay ;-)) BTW, his tables started with the solar star, whereas in vimshottary and general nakshatra scheme the list starts with the ketu-star which coincides with the first point of sidereal aries. I used both schemes but neither seemed to be more satisfactory when testing in a sizeable sample.

Any tattwa method will obviously be very dependent on what one considers the sunrise. Particularly if one is using 'sub-tattwas' which can be pretty tiny slices of time.

P.S. Sastry's book on birth rectification is a good one too if you are interested in birthtime rectification methods within the framework of traditional jyotish.

There are many many books in tropical framework too on birth-time rectification.

In practice, many rectify birthtimes by traits and timing of events, but this is very dependent on ayanamsha preferences and dasa year duration (not everyone uses the 365 day year for this) and so it can lead to multiple opinions, again, since there is a lot of matrix effects and not strictly black and white situations. Can be quite a tangled mess, really! Well at least we now have computers and software and that is quite a progress! Makes me at times envy the younger folks :-)


Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 04-27-2014, 03:37 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratherodd View Post
Has anyone tried these methods? Anyone find them helpful and/or reliable?

Pancha tatva method Short summary: Tattwa (element) at the time of birth: According to this theory in order for a person to be born, the birth has to take place during a vayu (air) tattwa or vayu antar tattwa There is more information here and a tutorial http://rayuduastrology.com/tatwaantar-tatwa-siddhanta/


Varga Chatushtaya method summary: The lagna’s in d9, d12, d81, and d108 should be conjunct or trine the nakshatra of the natal moon in order for the time to be considered correct. Only two vargas need to qualify in order for the time to be considered correct. More information (along with other rectification methods) in this PDF: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/4105581...Rectification+


What do you guys think?
Thank you for presenting these techniques Ratherodd, I will test them out.

To test either system one will need to check whether the births were natural or medically assisted.

There is a natural flow from the conception date and time (which determines the sex of the child) and the birth date and time. If the birth has been medically assisted e.g. forceps, induction, C-section etc., this flow will be disrupted and the very finely attuned systems mentioned above will not work.

Alice
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Unread 04-28-2014, 02:05 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

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Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
Thank you for presenting these techniques Ratherodd, I will test them out.

To test either system one will need to check whether the births were natural or medically assisted.

There is a natural flow from the conception date and time (which determines the sex of the child) and the birth date and time. If the birth has been medically assisted e.g. forceps, induction, C-section etc., this flow will be disrupted and the very finely attuned systems mentioned above will not work.

Alice
But gender determination takes place way before the birth, whether by natural or C-Section, does it not...??

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Unread 04-28-2014, 03:12 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

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But gender determination takes place way before the birth, whether by natural or C-Section, does it not...??

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
Yes, indeed it does and in the natural course of development between conception and birth the child is born at a time where the sex determined by conception is shown in the birth chart.

C-sections and other forms of medically assisted births disrupt this flow and so the child is born at a time that is not the natural date and time they should have been. You can have a female child born at a time male degrees are active and a male child born at times where the female degrees are active. This can cause considerable confusion to the child, particularly at puberty.

In these cases many methods of rectification based on natural births and sex degrees cannot work.

Alice
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Unread 04-28-2014, 10:05 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

With due respect to your thoughts, Alice, this kind of makes man(kind) more powerful and significant than Nature on which in a sense the astrological framework depends. And by nature I do not just mean Mother Nature, but also other divine factors including God, Time etc. Also, we assume that the method as described by various in various way is perfect. Science and technology has indeed become seemingly powerful but thousands of infants die at birth despite human interventions, as well as deaths occur despite the most timely and skilled and knowledgeable interventions by doctors, surgeons etc, and at the same time unexpected recoveries and miracles (health area) do get observed and really not so infrequently.

So, why should one assume that the man(kind) has so much power and control over the moment of birth when at the other end of the journey and even during the journey, such power weakens?

I realize we are carrying a somewhat theoretic discussion about a very complex phenomenon which has at best been anecdotally tested and we despite all the theories and hypotheses do not really understand, nor can bring out documented evidence that is uncontestable.

So, perhaps we should leave (and tolerate) a zone of flexibility and curiosity in our minds when we come too close to figuring out how really astrology works (I do not mean the techniques, but the infrastructure, the actual modus operandii) which we probably do not understand fully, but trying our best to fill in the gaps between the dots in order to make and see a pattern! Which, ironically, is true for most of the constellations that do not essentially look like the shapes that we human beings had been *seeing* for millennia and are so convinced that we begin to focus on the 'accepted' shapes somewhat concretely, as opposed to it symbolisms?

Anyways, I do not wish to change your views etc., but just placing before you what I think and wonder about the moment of birth, particularly in planned C-sections. Although, often it may seem that those are planned more around the surgeon's availability (convenience?) or OR time and other mundane considerations. It is easier, given the material and physical realm we all live in and its conventions and framework that influence most of us every moment of the day and night, to question the verity behind there being a suprahuman hand behind the moment of birth just as it is easy to question the verity of astrology since subjected to a blinded test, even great astrologers seem to do not so well, and lesser ones fail even more. For evidence of that if you visit Dymon Brock's interesting astro-quiz site, despite given the birthdata and four or five events and a date to figure out which of those 4 or 5 actually happened, with the result published a month later, the nominal success rate has been 1 in 3 or worse! This MCQ astro quiz is rather interesting exercise even the past ones, as long as one is not cheating and sneaking a peek at the answers below (scrolling involved)!

The moment of conception, is another interesting fact, but the bigger fact is that it cannot be objectively detected reliably, yet! Perhaps some day when a non-intrusive nano-camera transmitter can be implanted in utero and science to the best of my understanding is not there yet and perhaps not even interested in such a potentially risky exercise.

Please do not misinterpret that I am a sceptic or anti-modern technology person! I am neither!!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 04-29-2014, 12:33 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

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With due respect to your thoughts, Alice, this kind of makes man(kind) more powerful and significant than Nature on which in a sense the astrological framework depends. And by nature I do not just mean Mother Nature, but also other divine factors including God, Time etc.
I mentioned that most of the methods of rectification passed down to us by the ancients were not viable if a birth was medically assisted because this assistance interfered with the natural cycle. I felt that people were wasting their time trying to test them if they haven't determined if the birth was natural.

At the times these methods of rectification were worked out, there was no such thing as the level of medical intervention we experience today. Almost all births were natural because there was no other way. Sometimes babies got stuck in the birth canal and this disrupted the natural time of birth, though, if they were successful live births they still had some connection to the family astrological patterns - however the methods rectification would not apply to them either.

I have spent a great deal of my practice helping couples who were having difficulty conceiving find the correct time to do so - and with considerable success; as a result have learned a very great deal about the astrological processes of conception and birth.

I have learned that conception is only possible under specific astrological signatures - even if IVF is used - and that the birth of the child is directly connected to the time and date of conception. This is the normal natural cycle on earth and possibly the universe.

Interference with this natural cycle has become increasingly common and often produces great suffering. I have countless stories of women who were induced and consequently suffered very difficult childbirth; babies whose brains were traumatized through some methods of pulling them out of the birth canal - and so on.

Planned C-sections are the worst as they may pull a baby out into the world at times that have no correlation with the astrological patterns in the family line and consequently give difficulty in relating to the family.

I don't know if this is the result of a greater plan or not, but I do know it is an abuse of the baby itself and its family line. Human beings are good at abuse and often don't care for their own or other species at all - look at the long history of slavery and cruelty in our species and our stupidity in not seeing the terrible, long term consequences of these actions. Possibly this is also part of a long term plan for our evolution, but its malefic effects make me wonder about the type of beings that would institute such a plan.

Quote:
Also, we assume that the method as described by various in various way is perfect. Science and technology has indeed become seemingly powerful but thousands of infants die at birth despite human interventions, as well as deaths occur despite the most timely and skilled and knowledgeable interventions by doctors, surgeons etc, and at the same time unexpected recoveries and miracles (health area) do get observed and really not so infrequently.
Yes, and this is a good thing. I am very much if favour of science and technology, but not in favour of its uses that are based on ignorance and produce dreadful results. For example, currently we have discovered that the fuels we use are causing havoc in the ecology of the world with projected long term disaster for the life forms of this world, but we are too greedy and stupid to insist on using better, more ecologically viable fuels.

I have never been against skilled intervention when births are dangerous - babies born through this kind of intervention often still have strong connections to the astrological patterns of the family, though they do not have the normal signatures of natural births and do not respond to methods of rectification based on natural cycles of conception and birth.

Quote:
So, why should one assume that the man(kind) has so much power and control over the moment of birth when at the other end of the journey and even during the journey, such power weakens?
We have always controlled all facets of life to the best of our ability. Many people choose their own time of death (suicide) and some choose the time of death of others (murder).

Quote:
I realize we are carrying a somewhat theoretic discussion about a very complex phenomenon which has at best been anecdotally tested and we despite all the theories and hypotheses do not really understand, nor can bring out documented evidence that is uncontestable.
Well, Ray Murphy has done a huge amount of astrological statistical research that does give very interesting results, but no-one seems all that interested.

Quote:
So, perhaps we should leave (and tolerate) a zone of flexibility and curiosity in our minds when we come too close to figuring out how really astrology works
Believe me, the more I know about astrology the more I realise just how much I don't know! It is a vast and profound area of study that constantly stimulates the mind. Never-the-less I have been studying it with real life people and events for a very long time and know a great deal about the astrological signatures of the cycles of birth, life and death.

Quote:
(I do not mean the techniques, but the infrastructure, the actual modus operandii) which we probably do not understand fully, but trying our best to fill in the gaps between the dots in order to make and see a pattern! Which, ironically, is true for most of the constellations that do not essentially look like the shapes that we human beings had been *seeing* for millennia and are so convinced that we begin to focus on the 'accepted' shapes somewhat concretely, as opposed to it symbolisms?
Western tropical astrology is not based on the constellations but the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The signs of the zodiac are the Earth's energy field. I too wonder about the viability of constellations as other cultures have their own constellations of stars that are quite different to those we use.

Quote:
It is easier, given the material and physical realm we all live in and its conventions and framework that influence most of us every moment of the day and night, to question the verity behind there being a suprahuman hand behind the moment of birth
Who knows! Speculation is always interesting and many people like to think that there is a benefic god who oversees everything. When we look at human history and human cruelty to its own and other life forms I tend to doubt this.

Quote:
just as it is easy to question the verity of astrology since subjected to a blinded test, even great astrologers seem to do not so well, and lesser ones fail even more. For evidence of that if you visit Dymon Brock's interesting astro-quiz site, despite given the birthdata and four or five events and a date to figure out which of those 4 or 5 actually happened, with the result published a month later, the nominal success rate has been 1 in 3 or worse!
Dear Dymock - such a wonderful man whom I knew and greatly respected. Generally he got excellent results from age harmonics.

I always questioned these tests as variables sometimes made them very hard to call. I like forecasting the results of football games and am very often correct, but variables in these events also make them hard to call at times. The best way to see what I mean is to actually do the work rather than assess the results.

Quote:
The moment of conception, is another interesting fact, but the bigger fact is that it cannot be objectively detected reliably, yet! Perhaps some day when a non-intrusive nano-camera transmitter can be implanted in utero and science to the best of my understanding is not there yet and perhaps not even interested in such a potentially risky exercise.
Well, people conceived on that days I gave them - I even gave them times to have sex with good results. Babies born naturally from these times fitted the astrological signatures of rectification that I use. That's the best I can offer right now, but it convinced me.

Alice

Last edited by Alice McDermott; 04-29-2014 at 12:39 AM.
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Unread 04-29-2014, 01:32 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

Dear Alice,

Thank you very much for sharing! I truly appreciate that.

Yes, there has got to be some truth in or behind what many of us had been pitting our heads against. Though not personally knowing them, I have always admired the work and dedications of not only Ray, but also the Gauquelins and Dymon and many many others and their lonely journeys and though we share this in the 'vedic forum' which kind of segregates US, I think from east or west, of whatever origins we come from and backgrounds or mindsets etc. we astrologers must get past that simple divide! It is actually so easy for me to say, but when I began moving into jyotish from the realm of other divinations at a very early age, it was so sparse in terms of availability of literature, to me! And so confusing that I gave up on it! Then a year later, I found a book on tropical astrology, well-written in modern language and it must have touched the necessary switches in me somewhere deep and I got motivated to pick up jyotish again, and then I never stopped! So, you see, I have fond memories of Tropical astrology based on the seasonal zodiac. Quite candidly, tropical has made major conceptual shifts from the days of Ptolemy and Alan Leo through all the tropical revolutions that have taken place in the west including the researchers like Gauquelins, Lois Rodden, and the humanistic school and so many and all were sincere and dedicated and pretty thorough. There are so many more and I don't wish to sound as someone who is simply name-dropping! :-)

The eastern side of the story has had its challenges and so on too, but this is not about east vs west, a theme that in my reckoning is so futile and has been wasteful of energy in general! We can all get consumed and wiped out in our quest of astro-archeology or simply focus on what works now!

I think modern medicine has managed to do that successfully, even if it has become a bit cocky! It has taken from the wisdom of the ancients and even utilized purified herbals for saving lives and then it invited its sister chemistry and that is how "pharmaceutical development" began and the BIG PHARMA which ran with the science and turned into a MEGA business and so on! Structuring and Regulation is not the ultimate answer even there, although, it helped a lot during its rapid development and being inclusive, it always included the globe and now has spread over the globe!

Astrology which I consider quite useful is or can be useful too for human beings. Some examples you have given, but little or large and prolonged, or sustained, the fact remains that astrology remained relegated to small silos of researchers while others were more embracing in general! And realized the importance of some regulation and structure and perhaps that is where Astrology failed?

We all are so used to working in SILOS that we even create artificial watersheds even where mindsets are really not all that different although our languages might be, but even then our symbolisms really are not! ;-)

You must have touched a button in me somewhere; my apologies for this long message! ;-)

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 05-06-2014, 11:18 AM
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Re: Methods for verifying birth time

Here is a simple example. Your moon sign may change with your birth time. The moon is continuously waxing or waning. This is caused by her movement around our earth. During one day she travels quite a bit, and may be in two different zodiac signs. To be sure about your moon signs you really need to be sure about your birth time. Click on the Moon Signs Calculator to find how much you can trust any astrological prediction regarding your correct moon sign. See whether your moon sign possibly changes with a correct birth time.
Zodiac Signs
The sun does not appear to travel through the zodiac so fast. Our earth is moving around the sun only once a year. So, for predictions based on sun position alone you do not need an accurate birth time. Yet, those predictions for the 12 zodiac signs that you can read in all sorts of print media, are not really accurate for you. They are merely based on your birth date. This is simply too general. As you know, there are far more than 12 types of persons around. The zodiac signs alone cannot possibly describe every kind of person on earth. Your individual horoscope is calculated from your birth date, your birth time, and your birth place. It can tell you much more interesting and accurately timed details on you and your destiny.
Thirteen Moon Calendar , 13 Moon Calendar

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