Astrologers' Community I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

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#26
07-18-2019, 09:34 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

First we need to locate the Moon in the unrectified chart, let us call it the ‘base chart’. Is it above or below the horizon?
Next we need to calculate the distance from Moon to Ascendant (if the Moon is under the horizon) and from Moon to Descendant (if the Moon is above the horizon)
After that we refer to the table provided by Lilly (If the Moon is above the horizon every twelve degrees between Moon and Descendant is incremented by a day, beginning with 258 days gestation. If the Moon is below the horizon each 12 degrees between Moon and Ascendant is incremented by one day, beginning with a gestation period of 273 days – you can refer to the article The Moon and Gestation here at Altair Astrology for more detail)
Once we have the number of days of gestation we need to find the day. Convert the birth date into the Julian day and then subtract the gestation period, then convert this Julian Day back to the Georgian date. The Calendar Converter at fourmilab can do this, but most astrology software should have this function.
Once we have the date we can refer to an ephemeris and see if the Moon is indeed near the Ascendant degree of the base chart.
If it is, then we can use the rectify function of our astrology programme to enter the Moon’s position as the Ascendant for the day found.
What is the Moon’s position for the conception chart? We note this, then we recalculate our base chart with this degree as the Ascendant and note what the birth time would be for this new position. In fact this chart is now our new ‘base chart’ and we can use it for checking primary directions.

#27
07-18-2019, 04:07 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV First we need to locate the Moon in the unrectified chart, let us call it the ‘base chart’. Is it above or below the horizon? Next we need to calculate the distance from Moon to Ascendant (if the Moon is under the horizon) and from Moon to Descendant (if the Moon is above the horizon) After that we refer to the table provided by Lilly (If the Moon is above the horizon every twelve degrees between Moon and Descendant is incremented by a day, beginning with 258 days gestation. If the Moon is below the horizon each 12 degrees between Moon and Ascendant is incremented by one day, beginning with a gestation period of 273 days – you can refer to the article The Moon and Gestation here at Altair Astrology for more detail) Once we have the number of days of gestation we need to find the day. Convert the birth date into the Julian day and then subtract the gestation period, then convert this Julian Day back to the Georgian date. The Calendar Converter at fourmilab can do this, but most astrology software should have this function. Once we have the date we can refer to an ephemeris and see if the Moon is indeed near the Ascendant degree of the base chart. If it is, then we can use the rectify function of our astrology programme to enter the Moon’s position as the Ascendant for the day found. What is the Moon’s position for the conception chart? We note this, then we recalculate our base chart with this degree as the Ascendant and note what the birth time would be for this new position. In fact this chart is now our new ‘base chart’ and we can use it for checking primary directions.
That is the Trutine of Hermes
a useful rectification technique from antiquity

generally known as the Prenatal Epoch

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.
....Known as "Trutine of Hermes,"
from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:
.....The place of the Moon at conception
becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point....
But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law
for while the
Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch
the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch
was the place of the Moon at birth
....a very remarkable interchange of factors E.H. Bailey.
__________________
#28
07-18-2019, 04:09 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

'......Never take your rectification too seriously.
No matter how good it is.
No matter how compelling the evidence appears.
It is still speculative
And most of all, never attempt to pass off a rectified chart as a verified birth time.
This is one of the cardinal sins of astrology,
that astrologers would be excommunicated for
IF the astrological community was some sort of an organized religion
or cult
.....' http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2...rectification/
__________________
#29
07-18-2019, 04:15 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

*

Two excellent books
in detail
are:

http://www.worldastrology.net/wp-con.../12/CA-III.pdf

And Henry Coley wrote:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/clavis.html

http://skyscript.co.uk/pdf/Coley_cla...ae_elimata.pdf
__________________
#30
07-19-2019, 09:16 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

I am trying to use Lilly's way of rectifiying using the conception day, But I am confused what is my exact conception day is. I am following his method stated in this article:

https://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.co...rchants-chart/
#31
07-19-2019, 09:54 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV I am trying to use Lilly's way of rectifiying using the conception day, But I am confused what is my exact conception day is. I am following his method stated in this article: https://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.co...rchants-chart/
Lillys rectification source is known as THE TRUTINE OF HERMES
aka PRENATAL EPOCH
and the following detailed instructions
on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method
the purpose is determining/establishing the Ascendant
__________________
#32
07-19-2019, 10:23 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

I am trying to rectify using my prenatal epoch. My moon is below the horizon and is increasing in light which means according to this
Moon below the earth and increasing in light.

Period of gestation is 273 days plus "x".

"Count is to AC, because increasing and is 115 degrees. This divided by 13 equals 9 days the period is lengthened. Hence "Epoch Date" falls 9 days before "Index Date."

So I am supposed to count from the ASC to the Moon 13 degrees and see how many days are there?
#33
07-19-2019, 10:29 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

I am trying to rectify using my prenatal epoch. My moon is below the horizon and is increasing in light which means according to this
Moon below the earth and increasing in light.

Period of gestation is 273 days plus "x".

"Count is to AC, because increasing and is 115 degrees. This divided by 13 equals 9 days the period is lengthened. Hence "Epoch Date" falls 9 days before "Index Date."

So I am supposed to count from the ASC to the Moon 13 degrees and see how many days are there?

When I did calculate, I found out there 10 days. Can someone confirm this?

I ended up with two days for the day of conception:

22 Nov 1994 THE MOON WAS IN CANCER WHICH MIGHT MAKE IT THE ASCENDANT
23 Nov 1994 THE MOON WAS IN LEO WHICH MIGHT MAKES IT THE ASCENDANT

The problem I don't know whether I counted right.

This means I could end up with two birth time:

Cancer rising: at 2:55 AM
LEO RISING at: 3: 54 AM

Last edited by theV; 07-19-2019 at 10:34 AM.
#34
07-19-2019, 10:32 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV I am trying to use Lilly's way of rectifiying using the conception day, But I am confused what is my exact conception day is. I am following his method stated in this article: https://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.co...rchants-chart/
Lillys rectification source is known as THE TRUTINE OF HERMES
aka PRENATAL EPOCH
and the following detailed instructions
on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method
the purpose is determining/establishing the Ascendant
Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV I am trying to rectify using my prenatal epoch. My moon is below the horizon and is increasing in light which means according to this Moon below the earth and increasing in light. Period of gestation is 273 days plus "x". "Count is to AC, because increasing and is 115 degrees. This divided by 13 equals 9 days the period is lengthened. Hence "Epoch Date" falls 9 days before "Index Date." So I am supposed to count from the ASC to the Moon 13 degrees and see how many days are there?
Instructions for calculation of TRUTINE OF HERMES that Lilly used
are stated in great detail

at the link I provided http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
where it is titled THE PRENATAL EPOCH
HOWEVER
the Trutine of Hermes is aka The Prenatal Epoch
Certainly the method requires time to process
and so it is simply a matter of taking time to read, study
__________________
#35
07-19-2019, 11:28 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

@ JupiterAsc Yes, I do understand the instruction. But I am not sure whether I calculated the degree well. I started from 6 degree leo and counted + 13 degree until I reached Sagittarius. But I ended up in 8 degree sagittarius starting from 6 degree leo. I don't know now if it is 9 days or 10 days
#36
07-19-2019, 11:40 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

First image is the possible conception day when the moon was in 25 degree cancer. and the second possible concetion day makes the moon in 7 degree leo close to my actual ascendant. I put Sagittarius as the ascendant to both conception chart according to this article:

https://altairastrology.wordpress.co...-and-animodar/
Attached Images
 astro_2gw_zikrifa_aissa.41788.157194.jpg (52.7 KB, 1 views) astro_2gw_zikrifa_aissa.41926.162127.jpg (51.7 KB, 1 views)
#37
07-19-2019, 12:18 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV @ JupiterAsc Yes, I do understand the instruction. But I am not sure whether I calculated the degree well. I started from 6 degree leo and counted + 13 degree until I reached Sagittarius. But I ended up in 8 degree sagittarius starting from 6 degree leo. I don't know now if it is 9 days or 10 days
if you not only understood, but also followed correctly
the instructions at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
then all you can do is revise your calculations
because the instructions are very clear and detailed

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV First image is the possible conception day when the moon was in 25 degree cancer. and the second possible concetion day makes the moon in 7 degree leo close to my actual ascendant. I put Sagittarius as the ascendant to both conception chart according to this article: https://altairastrology.wordpress.co...-and-animodar/
I recommend to study and read the article at the link I provided
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
titled THE PRENATAL EPOCH - simply another name for THE TRUTINE OF HERMES
the instructions are comprehensive, detailed regarding all eventualities
so take time to process these
__________________
 The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post: theV (07-19-2019)
#38
07-19-2019, 05:30 PM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

The ASC and the Moon are 119 degree apart. 119 divide on 13 gives off 9 which means 9 days added to 273 it is 282. The day of conception would then be 23 NOV 1994.

Quote:
 "In orders Nos. 1 and 4 the distance in degrees of the Moon from the horizon last crossed (AC or DC), divided by thirteen, gives "x", or the number of days by which this period is decreased; and in orders Nos. 2 and 3 the distance of the Moon in degrees from the horizon which it is approaching, divided by thirteen, gives the number of days by which this period is increased."
"Always remember that since the Moon at birth becomes AC or DC at Epoch and vice versa,"

We put the natal moon as the ASC of epoch chart and the epoch moon would be in cancer which means the natal asc is cancer.
 The Following User Says Thank You to theV For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (07-19-2019)
#39
07-19-2019, 06:07 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV The ASC and the Moon are 119 degree apart. 119 divide on 13 gives off 9 which means 9 days added to 273 it is 282. The day of conception would then be 23 NOV 1994. Quote: "In orders Nos. 1 and 4 the distance in degrees of the Moon from the horizon last crossed (AC or DC), divided by thirteen, gives "x", or the number of days by which this period is decreased; and in orders Nos. 2 and 3 the distance of the Moon in degrees from the horizon which it is approaching, divided by thirteen, gives the number of days by which this period is increased." "Always remember that since the Moon at birth becomes AC or DC at Epoch and vice versa," We put the natal moon as the ASC of epoch chart and the epoch moon would be in cancer which means the natal asc is cancer.
So I checked my paper copy of AMERICAN EPHEMERIS for 23 November 1994
and
on that date, Moon was indeed in Tropical Cancer
but only until 4PM GMT
because at that time
Moon ingressed Tropical Leo on the day in question
nevertheless
presumably you have already created a chart
that shows your Pre-natal Epoch chart Moon
is same degree as your natal ascendant
__________________
 The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post: theV (07-19-2019)
#40
07-19-2019, 06:53 PM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Yes, JupiterAsc. The chart below shows the Epoch ASC in the degree of the natal Moon which makes the Epoch Moon still in Cancer. Thus, making my ASC in CANCER AND NOT LEO!!!!! MEANING I WAS BORN ON 2:54 AND NOT 3:45!
Attached Images
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 The Following User Says Thank You to theV For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (07-19-2019)
#41
07-19-2019, 07:09 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV Yes, JupiterAsc. The chart below shows the Epoch ASC in the degree of the natal Moon which makes the Epoch Moon still in Cancer. Thus, making my ASC in CANCER AND NOT LEO!!!!! MEANING I WAS BORN ON 2:54 AND NOT 3:45!
clearly then, a definitive example

of successful PRENATAL EPOCH aka TRUTINE OF HERMES rectification
so now
as rectified by yourself
following a bona fide ancient rectifrication technique
which in my opinion would make an excellent rectification sticky
more appropriate for traditional board because Prenatal Epoch
aka Trutine of Hermes
__________________
 The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post: theV (07-20-2019)
#42
07-20-2019, 11:01 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JUPITERASC clearly then, a definitive example of successful PRENATAL EPOCH aka TRUTINE OF HERMES rectification so now your rectified natal chart as rectified by yourself following a bona fide ancient rectifrication technique could be uploaded to this thread which in my opinion would make an excellent rectification sticky more appropriate for traditional board because Prenatal Epoch aka Trutine of Hermes is an ancient traditional technique
I have discovered in solar gold fire that there is an option for pre natal chart. What is your opinion about it? Is it accurate?
#43
07-20-2019, 11:20 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV I have discovered in solar gold fire that there is an option for pre natal chart. What is your opinion about it? Is it accurate?
I discarded my own copy of Solar Fire Gold
because Solar Fire Gold does not include the entirety of
the instructions at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
in fact, it is unlikely ANY software calculation program
can replace the individual astrologers own work
because obviously multiple factors require assessment
particularly exceptions as shown at that link
and software is not programmable to do that with any reliability
__________________
 The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post: theV (07-20-2019)
#44
07-20-2019, 11:28 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JUPITERASC I discarded my own copy of Solar Fire Gold because Solar Fire Gold does not include the entirety of the instructions at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm in fact, it is unlikely ANY software calculation program can replace the individual astrologers own work because obviously multiple factors require assessment particularly exceptions as shown at that link and software is not programmable to do that with any reliability
I agree with you. Technology made things easier but also made astrologer lazy. I was reading through Parashar and learning his methods. I had to revamp my mathematical skills to grasp the concepts. I also struggled with rectifying my chart because I am weak at math and English isn't my instruction language.

The solargold fire app rectified using the prenatal which gave me 4 degree Leo. It made me question my calculation, but since you followed my calculation and approved it, I think it is accurate.
#45
07-20-2019, 11:30 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JUPITERASC I discarded my own copy of Solar Fire Gold because Solar Fire Gold does not include the entirety of the instructions at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm in fact, it is unlikely ANY software calculation program can replace the individual astrologers own work because obviously multiple factors require assessment particularly exceptions as shown at that link and software is not programmable to do that with any reliability
I agree with you. Technology made things easier but also made astrologer lazy. I was reading through Parashar and learning his methods. I had to revamp my mathematical skills to grasp the concepts. I also struggled with rectifying my chart because I am weak at math and English isn't my instruction language.

The solargold fire app rectified using the prenatal which gave me 4 degree Leo. It made me question my calculation, but since you followed my calculation and approved it, I think it is accurate.

I didn't study math in high school.
#46
07-20-2019, 11:33 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Which page can I find the epoch method mentioned in Lilly's book Christian astrology?
#47
07-20-2019, 11:46 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 67,602
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV I agree with you. Technology made things easier but also made astrologer lazy. I was reading through Parashar and learning his methods. I had to revamp my mathematical skills to grasp the concepts. I also struggled with rectifying my chart because I am weak at math and English isn't my instruction language. The solargold fire app rectified using the prenatal which gave me 4 degree Leo. It made me question my calculation, but since you followed my calculation and approved it, I think it is accurate. I didn't study math in high school.
I'm no expert mathematician either
and most people are not keen on maths
so accept calculations of software programmers
many of whose programs show different results using same input data
the most reliable FREE online software calculation is at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology
as for your rectification, it appears sound
however
do continue to check and re-check
by monitoring PROFECTIONS et al

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV Which page can I find the epoch method mentioned in Lilly's book Christian astrology?
Index lists it probably
however
since if Lilly used it he is using the ancient TRUTINE OF HERMES
which is aka PRENATAL EPOCH
and
those instructions at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
are the most detailed, comprehensive, available online and FREE
__________________
#48
07-21-2019, 05:26 PM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,287
Re: I am starting to doubt my Leo Rising

This would be my new birth chart
Attached Images
 astro_w2gw_zikrifa_aissa.62654.166414.png (41.1 KB, 5 views)
 The Following User Says Thank You to theV For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (07-21-2019)

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