sun in fall

arlis4x

Well-known member
Whats up to my astrology people, I have my sun sign in libra that is considered not too good. does anybody have any feedback for this placement
 

07.Re

Well-known member
Because in the northern hemisphere, Libra is the time of the autumnal equinox

Being a Libran sun myself, I have wondered as to the influence on those Librans such as myself born in the Southern hemisphere (when its Spring in Oct).
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Whats up to my astrology people, I have my sun sign in libra that is considered not too good. does anybody have any feedback for this placement
WHy is that??? I dont use those terms, detriment, fall or whatever, they create a false impression. We take the Sun sign by its own merits in the chart and what it aspects. Libra is a charming, peaceable sign and like everything to be harmonious and fair.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Being a Libran sun myself, I have wondered as to the influence on those Librans such as myself born in the Southern hemisphere (when its Spring in Oct).
When a chart is drawn up, the calculations are adjusted for the southern hemisphere even though the default position is Greenwich Meantime in London. So reversing the chart or whatever doesnt make sense.

I dont know if the seasons have any bearing on who we are when we are born......
 

Claire19

Well-known member
To the best of my knowledge, nobody's ever worked that one out, Re. I've seen a few attempts at reversing the zodiac for the southern hemisphere, though, and not been impressed. Then again, I don't know the qualifications of the people doing them - I expect you'd have to be pretty expert in celestial motion mechanics to even try to take a stab at it, and sadly these days astrologers are very unlikely to be astronomers as well.

You might want to get in touch with Bernadette Brady - I know she's on the Net somewhere - she lives in England now, but practised and taught in Australia for many, many years, so she may have an opinion on the subject. I don't agree with her 100%, but she does know what she's doing.
Yes Bernadette had a good reputation here in Australia but experimenting and going against the basic principles doesnt really work.
 

Skillcoil

Well-known member
I know my Mercury is combust, but I didn't know of the temperature relation to it. Just the "degrees are too close" part. I don't think I have a single-focused mind, but I could be single-focused at times. It has a mutual reception with Venus in Virgo, but in traditional terms I've read it's weak.

Thank you Olivia, your comment gave me a better understanding of the dynamics involved.
 

07.Re

Well-known member
Thanks Olivia. I have done further research and found the following:

http://www.astrologycom.com/qual.html

Tropical Astrology in the Southern Hemisphere?

In the Southern Hemisphere (hereafter SH) the seasonal cycle is reversed. If the elemental qualities of the seasons are crucial in determining the distinctions between the signs of the zodiac, as seems to be the case, then the way people in the SH go about expressing the energy of the signs will be different.

Of course, if we hold that Astrological symbolism is universal, despite its origins in the temperate climes of the Northern Hemisphere (hereafter NH), then this point is irrelevant. But if we hold that Astrology is just as much about place as it is about time, that our experiential relationship to place is important, then this is an idea worthy of serious consideration.

Now, it is important to notice that the basic nature of the signs remains the same (i.e., an Aries is still an Aries), but the seasonal difference means that the mix of elemental qualities does change. Theoretically, this will bring about a change in the way a SH sign goes about expressing itself, even though the intrinsic nature of the sign has not changed.

Before outlining the probable difference in expression of each SH sign, it is worth highlighting the main points of difference between the elemental mix of NH and SH signs.

First, many of the signs merely swap their mode of expression with another sign of the same triplicity. We see this below in relation to the signs: Aries and Sagittarius, Gemini and Libra, Virgo and Capricorn, and Cancer and Pisces.

Second, the three pure signs in the NH, Leo, Gemini, and Pisces, become mixed signs in the SH. Meanwhile, the three mixed signs in the NH, Taurus, Cancer, Libra, become pure signs in the SH. Thus, the SH loses the pure fire sign in Leo, but gains a pure earth sign in Taurus.

Third, the SH signs that differ markedly from their NH namesakes are, as one would expect, those that fall in the middle of their respective seasons, namely, Leo, Taurus, Scorpio and Aquarius.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
As I have mentioned in a related posting here on AW about the concept of Fall in general,* there is in fact a historical question about whether Fall refers to the entire sign or only to a specific degree area within that sign. In the specific case of Libra I do not believe that the Sun is dejected (the old word for Fall) throughout the entire sign of Libra, but only in the relevant degree area of that sign. How can all people with a natal Libra suffer from a Fallen Sun? And those born in the last half of the sign, not only a Fallen Sun but also additional solar detriment because of the Fiery Road? If such universal dejection and detriment of the Sun were in fact the case I really believe such would show forth quite obviously in Librans, and at least I personally have not seen this.
Now I DO follow concepts of detriment and debility and dignity, in making delineations, even though I am not a traditionalist (nor am I a Modernist-I am an eclectic and take what makes sense to me from all approaches); and I also follow the generally accepted doctrine of Fall and Exaltation: but in this matter of the Libra Sun I make exception and follow the ancient doctrine of applying only specific degree areas for the Sun's Fall, rather than the entire sign...


* in the Dignities forum, my post to the thread "If Mercury is in Fall...what does it mean if Mercury is in Cazimi with Sun?"
 
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juicey J.

Banned
Actually it depends on the overall rulerships. For example say one has sun in libra but the ruler venus in Libra this would do much to counter the fall. Robert Hand himself as even said his mars in Scorpio (ancient dignity) helps to counter act his moon in Scorpio (fall). Also, say one has Libra sun with a venus in sagittarius, Jupiter in Sagittarus (dignity) the dispostion into a dignified planet (a benefic no less) would help to counter act the fall. Also, having the fall planet near an angle or in the same house and sign as an angle (especially rising or mc) gives a planet accidental dignity helping to counteract a fall or determint postion. Also, postive aspects to venus and any major (no inconjuctions) aspect from jupiter to a fall planet would help to counter act the fall. Also, I agree with dr. farr some degrees have to be better and worse then others. A CHART HAS TO DO WITH THE OVERALL DIGNITIES AND DEBALITIES AND THE DEGREES OF THE PLANETS, ONE MUST REMEMBER THIS OR THEY WON'T DO ASTROLOGY PROPER.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
As mentioned above, the totality of both essential and accidental dignities and debilities must be determined in coming to a final judgement regarding any planet's state in the given chart. This "totality" consideration is also found as a key doctrine in jyotish (Vedic) astrology as well.
 

23

Well-known member
In relation to the Sun -

Leo - Me (domicile)
Aries - I (exalted)
Aquarius - We (detriment)
Libra - Us (fall).

As well as what Olivia said, also let's not forget that especially the last half of Libra is particularly difficult because it is via combusta, which is the claws of Scorpion (Mars rules 24.01-30 deg Libra by term and Saturn rules 10.01 -20 deg Libra by Face) and the traditional ruler is Mars, which is "hotter" than the Sun and the only one so.

Libra is also naturally associated with yoking which is a form of entrapment which is why Saturn is exalted there (remember where Saturn is doing well, the Sun is not in a great condition and vice-versa). The Sun can't shine freely in Libra, this is observed by the coming of Autumn.

Q: Given that some countries call Autumn "fall", I wonder if the calling of it "fall" has its etymology in astrology?
 

juicey J.

Banned
23 your right expect 23-25 degrees libra is excepted in the combust due the stars of aractus and Spica, and this holds so in horary.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
The great starry Lords, Arcturus and Spica, are now (2010) both in the 24th degree of Libra, Spica right at the beginning of the 24th, Arcturus approaching the middle of that degree. Twenty years ago Arcturus was right at the 23/24 degree borderline.
 

Skillcoil

Well-known member
Thank you dr. farr. I hope this isnt off topic, but would that be interpreted as the Sun having the fixed star influence for a certain amount of time until it moved further away?
 
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