Not necessarily
Astrologers are not infallible
Astrologers are not infallible
But the Stars and Planets, we can't control.
Will Trump win presidency?
- Thread starter TaurusTime92
- Start date
Astrologers are not infallible
But the Stars and Planets, we can't control.
waybread
Well-known member
Pat Astro, I don't believe this for a New York minute. I don't believe in death prediction in astrology, and certainly I don't believe that astrologers are invariably correct. Stars and planets change all the time. With planets, the changes are called transits. With fixed stars, it just takes a whole lot longer. I don't believe in astral determinism or fatalism.
Horary astrology goes by the chart of the moment of the question. If we get 50 people globally casting horary charts about whether Donald Trump will be president, you will get 50 (or close to 50) different charts. Because they will be different charts they will not give the same answers to the same question asked at different times.
tikana
Well-known member
Waybread
it is very apparent that you have no clue horary works. 50 people running the same question should yield the same answer HOWEVER, the significator for D.Trump in this case should be different depending on who is asking.
Is he your employer?
is he your father?
your husband
are you gambling on him?
brother?
is the chart radical
how emotionally are you attached to the subject?
all that sh8t affects the chart.
PatAstro is right i am about to back his/her statement. here are an example. my old high school classmate told me this story. His uncle from his mother's side went to the psychic. she said you will die in airlane accident. so the guy moved out from airport area and never flew anywhere. one day in guadalajara, he was visiting his wife's relatives .. f*cking sesna ran into the relatives house while doing an emergency landing killing the uncle. So please tell me future is not fixed.
Tsmall and I ran a question at the same time exact the same question. BOth charts YIELD the same **** thing. we are hours apart therefore obviously we ended up having different ascendants.
it is very apparent that you have no clue horary works. 50 people running the same question should yield the same answer HOWEVER, the significator for D.Trump in this case should be different depending on who is asking.
Is he your employer?
is he your father?
your husband
are you gambling on him?
brother?
is the chart radical
how emotionally are you attached to the subject?
all that sh8t affects the chart.
PatAstro is right i am about to back his/her statement. here are an example. my old high school classmate told me this story. His uncle from his mother's side went to the psychic. she said you will die in airlane accident. so the guy moved out from airport area and never flew anywhere. one day in guadalajara, he was visiting his wife's relatives .. f*cking sesna ran into the relatives house while doing an emergency landing killing the uncle. So please tell me future is not fixed.
Tsmall and I ran a question at the same time exact the same question. BOth charts YIELD the same **** thing. we are hours apart therefore obviously we ended up having different ascendants.
rafaella
Well-known member
Well that is your opinion. My opinion is, you can.
Lilly asked about the King and some situation concerning him and her majesty and some issue with the parliament CA P.455. Lilly used 10th for the king and 4th for the queen, he didn't use 1st house at all, so this points to Lilly being the querent. Lilly judged the chart and came to accurate answers. There is also another chart, a querent asked about Prince Rupert and the wars. Querent was a well wisher to the court/parliament, Lilly used 10th house for Prince. CA p.452.
'Its is claimed that we cannot ask 'important' questions such as who will win the election? because so many people are asking this same question and the same question cnnot asked more than once.....Its is true but it is not true in the way in which it is meant..... every instant is different. THIS instant is different from THIS instant....take this away and we have no astrology.... if fifty people.... ask 'who will win the next election? the cosmos which is infinitely subtle mechanism, will find fifty or 500 ways
to showing the same answer....." Frawley, Horary textbook. p.138-139.
fensi88
Well-known member
Tikana, you are apsolutely right!! It depends also if querent is his fan or not.
rafaella
Well-known member
How about reception and placement? 10th ruler Mars rued by Sun, could the presidency be in the palm of Trump? Yet at this time not seen (Mars cadent in his 12th). Mars, in detriment of Saturn (the opponent). Sun has lot of dignity. Saturn dignity by term. I do hope Trump loses. But I'm not convinced. Sun is exceptionally strong and I think can take on Saturn because he is comfortable in his own sign.
BTW is Venus translating between Sun and Mars? Venus, combust (hidden and not seen). Venus, rules the 4th and the 9th signs.
Good luck to you all! If he wins, you are all welcome to Australia!
waybread
Well-known member
Folks, I do have a clue as to how horary works. I wonder how many of you have explored mundane astrology, where a lot of work is done on predicting election outcomes.
So far as I know, the relationships of 99% of the astrologers asking the question about Donald Trump are the same. I don't think any of his relatives are on board here.
If different astrologers coming from different positions (like/dislike) about Donald Trump can yield different answers, that is a problem in predicting the outcome of an election. Are you more likely to get one answer if you approve of him, and a different answer if you don't?
This is a horary thread, not a thread on an old classmate's uncle's psychic's predictions of someone getting killed in a crash. Astrologers from Ptolemy to William Lilly have indicated that mitigation of a predicted negative outcome is possible.
Two skilled horary astrologers should come up with the same response to a question if they use the same technique and moment (as astrological software would convert your times to GMT.) But here we have amateur astrologers all over the map; and other astrologers at different places and times asking the same question of different charts. So the analogy does not apply.
Certainly horary can address important political questions. Court astrologers existed from Roman times into the 17th century. But I don't think a lot of other astrologers were asking the same questions that Lilly asked in rafaella's example. Frawley's comment on the universe answering the same way 500 times is purely speculative.
So far as I know, the relationships of 99% of the astrologers asking the question about Donald Trump are the same. I don't think any of his relatives are on board here.
If different astrologers coming from different positions (like/dislike) about Donald Trump can yield different answers, that is a problem in predicting the outcome of an election. Are you more likely to get one answer if you approve of him, and a different answer if you don't?
This is a horary thread, not a thread on an old classmate's uncle's psychic's predictions of someone getting killed in a crash. Astrologers from Ptolemy to William Lilly have indicated that mitigation of a predicted negative outcome is possible.
Two skilled horary astrologers should come up with the same response to a question if they use the same technique and moment (as astrological software would convert your times to GMT.) But here we have amateur astrologers all over the map; and other astrologers at different places and times asking the same question of different charts. So the analogy does not apply.
Certainly horary can address important political questions. Court astrologers existed from Roman times into the 17th century. But I don't think a lot of other astrologers were asking the same questions that Lilly asked in rafaella's example. Frawley's comment on the universe answering the same way 500 times is purely speculative.
I like Trump... I used the tarot card... it is a reversed Two of Pentacles. He's not going to win.
tikana
Well-known member
How about reception and placement? 10th ruler Mars rued by Sun, could the presidency be in the palm of Trump? Yet at this time not seen (Mars cadent in his 12th). Mars, in detriment of Saturn (the opponent). Sun has lot of dignity. Saturn dignity by term. I do hope Trump loses. But I'm not convinced. Sun is exceptionally strong and I think can take on Saturn because he is comfortable in his own sign.
BTW is Venus translating between Sun and Mars? Venus, combust (hidden and not seen). Venus, rules the 4th and the 9th signs.
Good luck to you all! If he wins, you are all welcome to Australia!
Rafaella
you still have a problem with no aspect.. reception dignity all dandy but
there is no aspect
Sun is sitting in its own 1st not bulging. fixed angles - nothing happening at all
venus cannot translate light from sun to mars since sun is faster
venus - sun - mars - YES . a true TOL but not sun - venus - mars
translation of light works when 2 primary significators are separating and 3rd must be faster and receive either 1st or 2nd significator rejoining them
T
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tikana
Well-known member
Waybread
whatever ... future is fixed like it or not.
YES IT DOES matter where you stand on trump.. if you are in his party, Trump becomes 10th house or even 1 not 7th
when you are an opposition then he is 7th
if he is representing part of your group, it is 1st.
this is not about MUNDANE ASTROLOGY EITHER!
This is horary.. He aint winning deal with it.. you have a chart.. where is your interpretation?
there you go Waybreak *smirk* right call right chart right judgement
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56236
there you go people
https://books.google.com/books?id=d...onepage&q=will the king remain horary&f=false
10th house issue the whole breakdown ...
then there is this https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/08/18/who-will-win-the-us-presidential-election/
here is 7th house put into use http://www.astrologyweekly.com/more-horary/hillary-clinton-president.php therefore the judgement of 1st chart is correct - Trump is 7th house and none other and he is not getting in
I can keep going back and worth on presidential elections.
T
whatever ... future is fixed like it or not.
YES IT DOES matter where you stand on trump.. if you are in his party, Trump becomes 10th house or even 1 not 7th
when you are an opposition then he is 7th
if he is representing part of your group, it is 1st.
this is not about MUNDANE ASTROLOGY EITHER!
This is horary.. He aint winning deal with it.. you have a chart.. where is your interpretation?
there you go Waybreak *smirk* right call right chart right judgement
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56236
there you go people
https://books.google.com/books?id=d...onepage&q=will the king remain horary&f=false
10th house issue the whole breakdown ...
then there is this https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/08/18/who-will-win-the-us-presidential-election/
here is 7th house put into use http://www.astrologyweekly.com/more-horary/hillary-clinton-president.php therefore the judgement of 1st chart is correct - Trump is 7th house and none other and he is not getting in
I can keep going back and worth on presidential elections.
T
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rafaella
Well-known member
There are different definitions of translation of light, I'm looking more to Al Biruni example here and Bonatti http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tobyn2.html
Mercury 15 Virgo Venus 16 Taurus Jupiter 21 Leo
Mercury and Jupiter are significators not in aspect. Mercury applies to Venus and gives his light to her. She then applies to Jupiter, and translates the light of Mercury to him, thus allowing perfection.
Here is another one:
Mercury 15 Virgo Jupiter 16 Leo Venus 17 Scorpio
Mercury and Jupiter are significators not in aspect. Venus is separating from Jupiter and carrying his light. Mercury catches up with Venus and the light of Jupiter is translated to Mercury.
Perhaps not Lilly's definition, but there is more to trad horary than what Lilly mentions.
tikana
Well-known member
Rafaella
merc is TOL planet it is faster than Venus. and Jupiter
Mercury 15 Virgo Venus 16 Taurus Jupiter 21 Leo this is more COL than TOL - same thing
Mercury 15 Virgo Jupiter 16 Leo Venus 17 Scorpio
Mercury and Jupiter are significators not in aspect. Venus is separating from Jupiter and carrying his light. Mercury catches up with Venus and the light of Jupiter is translated to Mercury.
**wayyy too weird! would be nice to have an example with an outcome...**
it is the same as Lilly describes
The weirdest of them all is this TOL (I had never seen this scenario played out)
Mercury 15 Virgo Jupiter 16 Leo Venus 17 Scorpio
Mercury and Jupiter are significators not in aspect. Venus is separating from Jupiter and carrying his light. Mercury catches up with Venus and the light of Jupiter is translated to Mercury.
I can ask, Rafaella, if you want .. to me it is wayy too sketchy!
remember a lot of times Lilly and Darriot along with Raphael and so on they wrote out theories and unfortunately we do not have examples for each scenario that is why it is important for ppl to update their charts... how else will we find out if this method holds the water or not.
There has to be at least three confirmations for something to take place. Reception is absent so even if you are looking at TOL ....is it enough to pull a yes.
cheers
T
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rafaella
Well-known member
Well this is different kind of translation of light, it comes from sky script own website showing examples by Bonatti and Al Biruni. Venus translates here, not Mercury, so it's combination of translation and collection I guess. In the trump example, Venus is in dignities of both Sun and Mars and brings the light of Sun to Mars without interference. But of course some may say Venus being rx is rejecting the light of Sun, because rx plant pushes back the light rather than taking it.
I'm undecided. I think I'm done with this chart lol...
I'm undecided. I think I'm done with this chart lol...
tikana
Well-known member
I think Paul on skyscript said that it is hard to judge the chart when it is not personal... Trump could get a ticket but lose elections
sun in leo perfectly describes him.. a man with a mane!
i am happy and amused that he is sitting in his 1st NOT in 10th - that is not a winner
opposition sitting in 10th tells me an opponent getting the bone
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waybread
Well-known member
Tikana, You've actually supported my point. If you get different significators depending upon whether you support or oppose a candidate, then you get potentially more charts with potentially different outcomes.
But let's do the arithmetic: Trump either will be or will not be elected. As this is a yes-or-no question, you have a 50% chance of being correct. Same for the Obama thread and Hillary Clinton article you linked. Other astrologers asking about these candidates when the moon was not VOC might well have concluded in favour of their opponents. Or shall we conclude that horary astrologers world-wide would only have asked about the last election at the precise moments when the universe aligned to give them the correct answer?
This beggars my imagination, I don't know about yours.
I don't happen to support Trump-- for reasons that would offend his supporters. But this is not my point or the OP point. My point is that some questions are inappropriate for horary analysis. Some questions are more appropriate for one of astrology's other branches, singly or in concert.
There is a long history of limiting the use of astrology to inquire about the head of state, starting with ancient Rome, when predicting the death of the emperor or the ascension of his successor was considered seditious! While we don't worry about execution or banishment today, we should consider that some of the currently accepted preconditions for a radical horary chart and question just don't pertain to a question like the OP.
According to J. Lee Lehman, The Martial Art of Horary Astrology (which seems to emphasize Lilly and other English astrologers,) assigning the president of a country to the 10th house is a more modern interpretation, but I think it's become commonplace. She is of the opinion that a true divinatory question is not "the curiosity of the moment," and "is not casual. It is heartfelt." p. 10.
In the excerpt from Lilly that you linked, he clearly situates the ruler/nobleman/office-holder as the querent. Well, yeah. If the deposed king wonders if he can keep his kingdom, let alone his head, he has a direct immediate concern in the matter!
Lehman also clarifies that some questions are better answered through some other type of chart, and gives the example of the outcome of a football game being better analysed through a chart of the game itself. I propose that mundane astrology is a more sensible way to approach a US presidential election.
In the Anthony Louis example that you linked, he noted that his horary chart was inconclusive (!) so he prepared another chart for a "symbolic" [sic] not actual election date. He cites other astrologers who go by probabilities (!) like 55/45%, not the yes-or-no of this OP. Some of them did not use horary methods, or used them together with additional methods.
Further, "It strains my imagination to realize that 200 million Americans could ask who will win the next election, and that all 200 million would ask at the right time! If they don't, then the astrologer is thrown back upon trying to decide whether the Querent cares enough to ask the question, or has enough invested-- either emotionally or materially. That in turn is a difficult judgment call-- one that the Astrologer really should not have to make." (p. 13)
To be valid, Lehman concludes that a horary question can only be asked or answered once, unless the chart is inconclusive. Then the querent can ask again at a later time. (p. 15.) This consideration just doesn't support a situation like a presidential election.
waybread
Well-known member
This thread might be of interest: see the horary moderator's and Deborah Houlding's take on the same type of question.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8841
I note that the chart was constructed last August. I cast a chart for the moment. Of course, the sun is now leaving Capricorn, headed for Aquarius. Interestingly, the sun is also in the 7th, with Capricorn on the Dsc; but an old meaning of Saturn in or ruling the 7th is that the astrologer should discard the chart, because the querent is not going to like the answer. Hmmmmm.
But you see the problem.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8841
I note that the chart was constructed last August. I cast a chart for the moment. Of course, the sun is now leaving Capricorn, headed for Aquarius. Interestingly, the sun is also in the 7th, with Capricorn on the Dsc; but an old meaning of Saturn in or ruling the 7th is that the astrologer should discard the chart, because the querent is not going to like the answer. Hmmmmm.
But you see the problem.
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Well I predicted Obama will win. I didn't like the outcome either. I wanted Romney and McCain to win.
I even predicted which football team will win. By using the color that the sign represents in 5th house. Blue outfit or the orange outfit. It is pretty cool.
Alternatively 'the sudden surprise'
may be that Trump fails to buy the Presidency
He's winning everything!!!
My horary reading may be correct.
TaurusTime92
Banned
The Sabian for 23 Leo (Trump): A bareback rider. Keywords: to be a master in whatever you are doing, risk, danger, show, courage, desire for applause.
Well **** this is definitely him.
Well **** this is definitely him.